Still trying....

[SweetRedd]

You make perfect sense JV Counseling with H could answer those questions maybe? But, you'd have to answer the question "Do I want to try?" first. That's a hard step considering all you've been through. Hang in there.. I've read your thread for awhile and you've grown so much. You'll answer the doubts and questions over time, and you'll be OK. Keep taking care of YOU! Don't allow H to guilt you into anything, but be true to yourself. ((JV))!

[dodgermf]

Don,

Please don't get me wrong. I am not "anti-marriage". Hey, do I wish that my XW was with me and her continuous lies and her ongoing affair (I guess it's not an affair anymore now that we're divorced) didn't happen? Do I wish that she took our counselling back in the Fall of '04 seriously and truly worked on the marriage? ABSOLUTELY!! I am pro-marriage as well. That being said...what part of

he yelled and said to me, "You're a f***ing c*nt bit** wh*re, and I hate you!!!!" CLICK!

...do you not understand? Again, I've been following JV's deal steadily for months now and she has taken enough mental and verbal abuse to fill up the Rose Bowl!! I'm not a psychic but I often wonder how long before the verbal turns physical?

(JV, please don't take this the wrong way...) From what I know based on what she's written and "revealed" about herself, JV's got a long road ahead. The thing is, I've seen her get stronger and stronger over the recent past and seems to be fired up about moving on. Getting the Diploma. Going to work. Working to become self-sufficient. Not just moving on, but "Moving UP^^^^".

JV, if for some reason, you two got back together and were completely happy...GREAT! The thing is...the drinking...the Poker obsession...the verbal jabs...the not coming home...oh yeah, and the "Old Navy" deal... Is it worth it? Only you can answer that question. I can't, Don can't, nobody but you can. I'm just tired of seeing you get knocked down like one of those old blow-up clowns. You hit them and they pop back up again. Then you hit them and they pop back up again. Then you hit them and they pop back up again. JV, I don't want to see you being one of those...

OK, that's it. I've spoken my mind and again JV, if I've gotten too much into your business, I apologize. I just think your well being and your sanity are more important than giving him chance #107 to put you through more absolute Hell.

DMF

[ValerieA]

Thank you, piglet . I know I would have to ask myself that question first...do I want to try?...I'm leaning towards 'no', but I honestly can't answer it right now.

Sometimes I think when H mentioned MC that it could be his way of throwing me some more crumbs. He knew I wanted to go to MC for a looong time...how do I know if this isn't just another attempt to slow me down in the D process? Just like the first time I told him we needed to talk about things...he admitted that he was deliberately avoiding me...he was hoping I would change my mind.

Thanks for your praise, too . Last week, I actually went back to my very first post and read through all of my threads (I'm a Pisces so I tend to reflect a lot ), and I, too, have seen a HUGE change in myself . I remembered some of those old helpless, hopeless feelings I went through...I never want to be in that place again.

My mom gave me some really good advice a couple of weeks ago that my grandmother gave to her. It's rather harsh but very true...Get up, stop your crying, and move on with your life....that's my grandma -- short and to the point...she's great !



D, you know that I have absolutely no problem with you getting all up in my business ! I love ya for it ...and I used to have one of those damn clown things...I hated it! So yeah, I definitely don't want to be one of those.

H never actually said that he wants to go through with the D nor did he say that he wants to try for the M again. I just find it very difficult to believe him at all anymore. All I hear are empty words, and all I see are...well, I don't even see anything. No specific actions that tell me or show me anything...except for when he took the boys for that one week to give me a much needed break.

I just really think it's all about the money for him...I'm sure I'll find out more on Friday when we talk.

Thanks for listening.

JV

"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination."

[Bonkers]

Have you considered signing up for three seesions of DB tlephone counseling? Sounds like they are great at cutting thru the crud and getting to the bottom line.

[ValerieA]

Thanks for the suggestion, Bonkers. I do appreciate it , but I personally prefer to sit down with a MC...no distractions that way for me...and I honestly think if H agreed to go to C, he would probably prefer the same....and at least this way if he gets mad at what the MC has to say, he can't hang up on them ! He's stuck there .

Thanks again.

JV

"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination."

[DonH]

Thanks for taking the time to respond to me. Did your response make any sense? You bet it did. In fact, I think this one connected more with me than many of your other posts. So much so that I have a different new current thought, and that is, I wonder if you dont need some time away from him with little or no contact. I think you are right to be unsure about many of these things. I think you are right to be confused. One way or another the best thing you can do is work through that confusion so you are making the best decision - period. Not the best decision you can at this time. Do the two make sense? There seem to be so many uncertainties and unknowns here. Somehow, though, some way, you need to work through it for the final right answer. Maybe what your posts are saying to me is not really that you are not done, but that you are not sure. You may be done, but your're not sure. You may not be done, but you're not sure. There may be hope - they may not be hope - YOU JUST ARE NOT SURE. I'll bet we are going to totally agree on this. And to me that means above all that you have to get sure before you get D. I have been so wishy washy and in so much termoil in my life in the past two weeks that I really should not be making suggestions to anyone at this point, but still somehow, the "gut" reactions are really there in your sitch and they hit me. I'm not sure why that is and like I said I may have been close but off a bit on the last comments. Done or not done? The answer is you're not sure. That means taking whatever steps to work through that. I do agree with the others, you are an inspiration to many other here - including me. Good luck.

[ValerieA]

Journaling:

Well, H and I are getting together tomorrow morning around 10am to discuss an agreement again. S9 and S6 will be in school, and I'm dropping S1 off with MIL for the day.

I called H about 2 hours ago to remind him. He said he would be here..."no problem"...but he sounded a little weepy....reality's setting in, I guess. I know the feeling.

Anyway, I'm still going to ask for the same thing -- that the kids and I get to stay in the house while he continues to pay for everything, and if he does this, I will not ask for child support, but I can't waive the alimony. If I do, I can never get it back, and I know I'm going to need it to help pay for my schooling. I'm looking at about 3 or 4 years until I can have that first REAL job...one that I can be very proud of because I worked so hard to get it . Then when I'm financially independent and the alimony's gone, I can ask for child support.

Geez...sometimes I can't stand the way it sounds when I talk about child and/or spousal support. It's not about the money...it's about what is right and what is fair. I don't know...(I say that a lot, don't I? )...maybe I feel a little uneasy about it because even though H would say it was "our" money, it just always felt to me like it was "his" money...because he worked, and I didn't.

He really rubbed that fact in my face...too many times...and he did a very good job at it, too, because it's bothering me now....alright, now that's my fault for letting it. Gotta stop right there!

Well if anyone has any to spare, please send me some positive (((((vibes))))) for tomorrow morning! I know when we talked the other day, H said he'd do what I wanted....but that was then, and this is now.... just like he hated me one day then loved me a few days later.

Hmmm...we'll see. Thanks for listening.

JV

"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination."

[OCKim]

Hi JV...

I know that the decision to end a difficult relationship, or stay and keep trying to make it better is always a hard one. I sense that you are struggling to figure out what is the best move for you. As you may already know, I am one who believes in writing out "lists"... Perhaps it may help you to write out a list of all the reasons you can think for continuing to work at the relationship, and every reason you can think of to end the relationship. (EX: "Reasons to stay" -vs- "Reasons to go")
If you haven't already thought about it, you may want to consider how your relationship hs affected different areas of your life, or even your H's life. For example... your physical health, self-esteem, goals in life, finances, friendships/family, activities you enjoy, etc. (You can even add some of these to your list if they apply)...

JV... I know how hard this has all been for you...
I see so much more confidence and strength in you lately.
You have amazed me and put me in awe... Seriously, you have handled stuff that amazes me. Please remember, JV...
you ARE a good and caring person and you deserve to be treated with respect. IMHO, your H has put you through unnnecessary emotional abuse when he loses his temper and calls you a "f***ing, c*nt, bit**, wh*re... And, tells you that he hates you... When he chooses to emotionally abuse you, it is a way of him hurting you without necessarily being physical. He is trying to control your feelings or thoughts in order to gain power over you.
Putting you down, calling you names, frequently cursing, or yelling at you are all examples of emotional abuse.
JV, I know that you are feeling confused... I know that it is still possible to love someone who hurts you...
But, loving someone does not always mean they are healthy for you. You truly deserve to be happy, JV...

While your H usually has promised that he will change, it is rare that he will change his behavior while still in a relationship with you without getting some professional help (taking an "anger management" class)... I even see his "guilt trips" as a way of manipulating you.
JV, your H is responsible for his actions. You are only responsible for yourself. I hope you know that you have nothing to feel guilty about if you choose to leave this relationship. Remember JV: "Actions speak louder than words"... How many times now has your H told you that the name calling and put downs are going to stop?

If you are going to stay and work on this relationship, which is difficult, even painful at times, then I think it is important to be very clear about what needs to change and how you plan to make those changes happen TOGETHER.
I think you know by now that you can not make your H change. You can let him know what changes YOU plan to make and what changes you would LIKE him to make, but it is up to your H to decide whether he will change or not.
You are not resposible for your H's actions. If your H becomes emotionally abusive to you again, changing YOUR behavior will not make him stop.
JV, I hope you do not see this post as pressure to end things with your H, as that is not my intention at all.
I will continue to support your decisions, whether I agree with them or not.

As DMF mentioned, I am also all about trying to save marriages (which is exactly why I began posting on this site... to do everything possible to save MY marriage!)...
However, you deserve to be in a healthy, loving relationship. You are an incredible woman, JV...
Thinking of you.... Your friend, -Kim

[ValerieA]

Ok, we talked this morning but first......

Hey, Don. Looks like we were posting at about the same time last night, and you're right...I am in total agreement with you on this one...I'M JUST NOT SURE.


Kim, as always, your posts touch me every time...you really get me thinking...I am DEFINITELY going to compose such a list this weekend....you are a VERY AMAZING WOMAN yourself, and you are indeed a TRUE friend . I can never thank you enough...any of you!


Alright...the talk...

Nothing really changed as far as what I was asking for, and once again H said that he was just going to give me everything because he didn't care anymore....did you hear that??? Sounded like a violin... ... ...I am sorry....that is NOT like me at all....but sometimes I feel like I'm just tired of all the "H" BS, and I feel like he's trying to guilt trip me.

So anyway, the convo continues on, and H started to tell me that he can't afford to keep me and the boys in the house forever. I told him I never expected for it to be that way. If I've learned anything from my sitch, it's that you shouldn't depend on anyone. You can, but you shouldn't. I told him I will need a few years to become self-sufficient. If he should be in serious financial trouble in a year or two and can't keep up with the mortgage payments, then I'll agree to selling the house and I will have to move in with my parents....but I also told him, "Don't tell me you can't afford it. You CAN go and find a job right now. You just haven't been looking in other places, and you even admitted that yourself." He sighed, lowered his head and said he knew.

Then he started to come at me about how much the kids and I cost him every month...I told him, "Stop right there for a second. Let's forget about what YOUR FAMILY costs you, and let's look at what YOUR expenses are each month since you've been out of the house." We went over everything...his rent, his bills, his food, gas, tolls, etc, etc......It turns out he is costing ME $400 to $500 a month to be out of the house ($800 - $1000 total since it's "50/50" <--- that's why there's $4000 less in the bank plus whatever his gambling losses have been ), and I DON'T WORK!...He saw this as we were writing it all down and had nothing more to say other than, "I know I need to get a job. I've just been lazy about it, I guess." <---- That's exactly what the ATTY said to me. H is very comfortable not working right now because there is so much money in the bank, but he probably hasn't realized that there's not enough coming in with unemployment alone (and he can't collect forever - duh!). I think H sees it now though.

So again we started talking about my schooling and me becoming financially independent in time...then H said, "But what if I don't want you to work?"...WT_???!!! Somebody PLEASE explain this man to me!!!! I just don't get it!

H said he wants to take care of me...he doesn't want me to work...then he said, "JV, please...what if I seriously go to see a counselor or something?...Will you let me come back?...I've been wanting to come back for a long time now...especially when I see (S1), and I watch him weeble-wobble( ) around the house...I want to see that everyday...I want to see the kids everyday...ILY and I want to be with you...and then sometimes I just get very stupid and mess things up worse." I said, "Mess up? Oh. When we fight." H said, "Yeah...I want to treat you right, JV. I want to be better to you. I know I've put you through so much f***ing sh*t, and I'm sorry...I am so sorry. I'm a f***ing idiot."

There were some tears shed during that part of the convo. A lot from H...very few from me.

Bottom line....he wants another chance, and he knows if I give it to him, it will be his VERY last. I told H I need some time to think about it because I have too many doubts. He said ok...and I told him, "IF I should decide to try this with you again, H, then C is a MUST...Do you understand me?" He said yes, and I said, "I'm dead serious, H. You will ABSOLUTELY have to go. I will not even attempt to work things out with you if you don't." H said, "I'll go. I will...but can I see a separate C?" I told H that he can, but we could see the same one together for the first visit then ask about individual C sessions if that's what he'd like. I told him that whatever he says in his independent session would be kept confidential and vice versa. H said ok then he gave me a hug. I told him this doesn't mean I'm saying 'yes' to giving the M another chance. I only said I needed time to think.

Before he left, H said something about this being the best thing for the kids...us working things out. I said, "You know...I think what's going to best for them is if they have a mother and a father who love each other and show respect to one another. I don't think it's a good idea to stay together just for the kids. There needs to be a lot more going on there. If they have a loving environment to grow up in, they'll be just fine...whether or not you and I are together." H was looking down on the ground as I was talking then said, "I do love you, JV." I told him "ILY", too, then he left.

He called about 15 minutes after that to...I guess just to chat a little. We didn't talk about anything really, but he asked if I wanted the weekend to think things over. I said yes, but I may need more time. I also said that should I choose to work on this, I don't want him back in the house immediately. I think that would be a mistake. He said ok.

(Sigh)....I have to get the kids soon....I will be working on that list this weekend...and to be honest, I'm not feeling very optimistic about it. It just feels like the "cons" are going to far outweigh the "pros" here.

Ok, gotta go. Thanks for listening.

JV

"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination."

[ValerieA]

I made my list...it's basically just a bunch of notes, so here it goes:

REASONS TO TRY

* for my boys
* H is FINALLY agreeing to MC
* H says he promises that I won't regret it

REASONS NOT TO TRY

- TOO MANY fears and doubts
- fear of being called a b****, a c*nt, or whatever else when I do or say something to p*ss H off
- fear of empty hugs, kisses, ML...no "real" emotional and/or physical intimacy
- fear of falling back into being the "old JV" (miserable, unhappy, etc...all in reaction (because I allow it ) to H's negativity about EVERYTHING)
- fear of being told he hates me and/or feeling it
- fear of being told that this M was a mistake...again
- doubting that I can ever really love H the way he needs/wants to be loved
- I don't trust him with my heart anymore
- I don't trust him...PERIOD.
- I feel better when he's not around...more at ease, less stressed, happier (not necessarily happy...just happier), content
- I'm afraid that it's just too late...that I've completely detached


I did say that I felt there would be more bad than good.

I feel like I really need more time to think it over, and my family isn't helping much . They tell me that a decision needs to be made and quickly. I agree that I need to decide, but if I'm still unsure then I believe I need the time.

Why am I having such a hard time with this??? Everything tells me that this R is just BAD. VERY BAD, and it won't be better. Then I think about my kids.....the boys are what keep me from just saying no...but I DO NOT want to "stay together for the kids".

Just too many doubts about this M, and I'm afraid of making the mistake of giving H another chance only to be let down and crushed again.

Alright...I hope you're all having a great Saturday night! I'm heading over to my friend's house to just hang out .

Thanks for listening.

JV

"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination."