Looking backward...but only to move forward FOUR

[Nevanna]

Hey Sage...when you did get to be a moderator?? Congrats, BTW.

[psluke]

Hello Sage,

Just wondering how the interview went and sending you wishes for a wonderful weekend.

[sage]

Hey guys,

thanks for the visits! It's been a crazy few days!

Nevanna, hey! I think I became a moderator about a month ago...good to see you!

The interview yesterday went amazingly well. It was with a Dr. who is on the company's scientific board. He works for a pharmaceutical company. By the time we were done he had actually indicated that if I didn't get or want the job I was interviewing for he would like to talk with me about a job with him!!!!

BUT...I did get the job! I don't know the details but they emailed me and left a message that they have an offer letter for me. I'll pick it up Monday. Hooray! It's going to be a BIG change!

h has been awesome, sweet, supportive, incredibly loving. Last night he made us champagne cocktails and has been toasting me with everything from that to gingerale . He also said "let's brainstorm on how we can save money" (the job pays less but offers more, if you know what I mean). He's so great about alleviating my anxieties

Gotta run...graduation today! Pray for sun (though it looks like rain!!).

Sage

[Brokendreams]

Sage, I'm so glad to have found you! Congrats on becoming a moderator!!

I just browsed thru this thread but wrote down the book you mentioned" Self Coaching" by Joseph Luciani. Thanks for letting us know about this book. Both myself and D20 have bouts of depresssion/anxiety and I love the self-coaching approach to coping and learning new skills. Will check it out. Thanks again.

BrokenDreams

[psluke]

Hi Sage,

CONGRATULATIONS!!! On getting the job.

Hope graduation went well and NO RAIN!

[sage]

Pam and BD,

Thanks for the visits!

BD, I'm liking the book a lot...I hope you find value in it, too.

Pam, the rain held off long enough for us all to get under the tent at graduation! the weather here has just been miserable -- cold and rainy -- but the ceremony was great and the party my family had for me afterwards was awesome.

So, I got the job offer today. The salary was as expected but the benefits are really, really bad. I thought they would be less than stellar but the health insurance is $$.

I panicked a bit and called h and we had an ok but strained conversation about expenses, etc. We both rallied and talked through a few more things...world's better than we would have done 3 years ago!

he called back a while ago to give me a teaser on the surprise weekend he's planned for me this weekend...what an amazing guy I've married!

As I was writing this post, a thought occured to me...that while the $ related to the job is tough, I'm wondering if I'm not using that to deflect my fears...of the changes (monumental) and of course the ever present fear of failure...('cause surely the people I've fooled here for 7 years must be insane, right?!).

Anyway...just babbling...

Sage

[debcb]

Sage, if you have time would you take a look at my thread and give me your thoughts? I'm really really in a quandry and struggling to have a clue where to go from here.
thanks.
deb

[Wonka]

After Deb, I could use some of your POV too in my thread, Sage!!

[sage]

My 19th thread:
19th thread

Good advice comes from a variety of places:

I went and got a pedicure which took quite a while because I was the last client of the day and the woman and I had a very interesting conversation about marriage (hers). She's been married for 10 years...2 kids...she basically got pregnant a month after she met her h! Told me the story of how they met (right after a devastating breakup for her, he was smitten right away!) and how over the last 10 years they have learned to treat each other with kindness and respect and make each other and their m. a priority. She told me that a few years ago she realized that she was unhappy in the m. so she set out to understand what was working, what wasn't and how to fix it! Sounds like she was DB'ing without even knowing it! Turns out that the biggest change for her came after they started "dating" each other again...really setting aside time each week. What was PARTICULARLY interesting about that was that she said that for the first few months they almost exclusively did things that interested him (sports, his type of movies,etc) but that gradually he started planning stuff with her in mind.

A nice example (I thought) about getting what YOU want by putting the other person first.

anyway, she was so joyful about her m and had clearly put effort and thought into it. Other stuff -- she said that she no longer personalized her h's reactions, that she herself had worked on her own anger and resentment, etc.

Ah…a good reminder to me; when you can’t control THEM (and you NEVER can!), control YOU:

First off...let me say that I'm NOT ranting about something "going on" -- I'm not THERE -- I'm just ranting (ok, semi-ranting) about the residue of STUFF. By the end of this note you'll find me happily DB'ing my heart out.

I came home from work last night normal time. h was already home from his internship (a full day of work). I walked in the house and yelled hello. He replied, came downstairs, etc. He said that he hadn't heard me come into the driveway...hadn't heard my car alarm...I said that I knew we were going out (and we were) immediately so I didn't set the alarm. He said "well, it was kind of like you were in stealth mode".

Sigh.

He didn't say it angrily or defensively or anything negatively. And maybe it's not even making sense to my faithful readers...but I've mentioned before that the time when I come home feels WEIRD sometimes...like he's agitated or like he's hovering around me or something.

What the heck am I interrupting with my arrival? A snack of chocolate covered oreos? Scanning ebay for Hummels? Something sinister? Something better? Worse? Heck, maybe he's reading my thread.

The point is...something feels HIDDEN to me and APPARENTLY something feels, what, STEALTHY, to h. Does he think I'm trying to catch him at something?

It reminds me of the time he told me "Every time you ask me a question it sounds like an inquisition". Note that the questions I was asking were related to what kind of sandwich he ate.

So...I have to admit that I'm annoyed. And there's a part of me that's fearful, too. OK, I'm afraid, dammit. What the hell is up with that?

Is he trying to hide something from me? computer stuff? phone stuff?

He told me over the weekend that he would do anything to make me feel more secure. He told me that he didn't feel as though he were secretive about anything.

But he feels as though I'm in stealth mode?

OK...it took a LONG time to shake the discomfort of that off. Went to buy a dishwasher (finally!), went out to dinner (uncomfortable but "as if"), came home, sat on the couch, hours after the exchange we both loosened up.

Was it me reacting? Or was it him? Who the hell knows.

SO....I don't know...it's bugged me today on and off so here's the best DB'ing I can come up with.

GOAL: Remove any actions that suggest to h that I am in stealth mode -- aka -- trying to catch him at something. Do this by calling him and letting him know what time I am coming home, by using the car alarm, by giving him a minute or two after I walk in the door. Make the environment feel more comfortable, less controlling or questioning. Seek to alleviate the uncomfortableness by being more comfortable and comforting!

Some thoughts on taking responsibility for your 50%:

I hope this doesn't sound pat but I honestly hold myself 100% for my contribution to the problems in our M and 0% responsible for HIS contributions. that sounds a lot more definitive than it really is, doesn't it?

I've always been a self-critical person (ok, I've always been a critical person -- self and otherwise!) so even pre-bomb I felt like I took responsibility for my role, etc. What was missing, though (pre-bomb and pre-db) was the acceptance that MY way was in fact NOT the only way to do things and I completely missed the fact that I had hurt my h in a hundred small ways that had contributed to our issues. BUT, how he "manifested" his pain, hurt, whatever, was truly his responsibility.

I'm not explaining this well!

I guess my point is that there came a point while I was DB'ing where I could CLEARLY and HONESTLY see that while I wasn't responsible for h's a, or even for his lying (his response of choice), I had contributed significantly to his pain. Now, his pain relief of choice was his responsibility -- and it could have taken a number of forms -- LOTS of them more healthy than the ones he chose -- but the contribution to getting him to that point of pain was partly mine.

Divorce Remedy helped me get to the point of understanding how I had contributed because it forced me to really scrutinize h's complaints about our M and my actions that contributed to them. "Relationship Rescue", "Men are From Mars" and "Love is Letting Go of Fear" were also instrumental in my understanding some of the more subtle ways (well, subtle to me!) that I had hurt my h.

So...one of the things that I was going to post on your thread was that I was totally caught up in the trap of thinking that because OTHERS were "outraged" by some of the things that my h did (this was actually way before the A) that I must be RIGHT and he must be WRONG. I would frankly stop listening to what other people think...it's a real trap.

And then I would realize that it's not about DESERVE and it's not even about RIGHT and WRONG. Does your behavior justify his behavior. Does his behavior justify yours? Who the heck knows? But it SURE IS a cycle right now that one of you has the chance to break.

Here's what has worked for me....

I take 100% responsibility for working on my crap as often as I can...and, if in the process, h works on his crap too, well all the better.

Work on your trust issues and perhaps he'll work on lying. Either way...you come out the winner because you have addressed the only part you can control.

Another way to view it...I wasn't sure if my M was going to survive or not...but I had to work on the stuff I was bringing to the table because I can promise you that it gets carried with you regardless of the R you're in...I strongly suspect, Karen, that you'd find yourself with similar issues next time around...not because you "deserve" it but because you haven't decided to break the cycle.

Do absolutely everything you can to heal yourself and I think that h will do his own work too.

Thoughts on waiting for the WAS to “own up”:

Did you expect him to own up to his share? Or to say he was sorry, etc.? Or is that not worth thinking about?
Did he blame you outright?




It's not that it's not worth thinking about...it's just that you're expending precious energy on stuff you can't control. I did not expect him to "own up" to his share...part of focusing on me and my behaviors and not him is also about dropping the rope the sense of "you gotta do xyz".

I also didn't make his offering up an apology a condition of my changing and/or a condition of my forgiving him. That's not to say that I didn't yearn for an apology or hope like heck to get one someday...but more to suggest that I didn't say to myself -- "I'll do xyz but no more until he acknowledges his contribution".

Now, note that I'm certainly NOT perfect at any of the above but when I get "stuck" in feeling self-righteous or feeling as though I don't want to work anymore without something from him I tend to stay stuck "internally" as opposed to acting out with him. I may actually pull away a bit, regroup, take some time for myself but I don't get aggressive with him or say "hey, what about your crap" -- I find that that just doesn't work for us.

Other point I'd make is that acknowledging that h doesn't process or articulate stuff in the same mode that I do has been a big relief and a big help.

h did not blame me for his A -- he told me it had nothing to do with me, in fact -- but he did offer up some reasons as to why he was in pain that had to do with me. I think that my h recognizes that he was responsible for his choices but that we were both responsible for where our M was at...

I had forgotten about this!:

So at one critical point last night I was certain I would be posting to you all a "had a major, horrible backslide last night" post...instead...thanks to the wonderfulness of h and a wee bit of DB'ing, I'm posting another "made another strong step forward" post.

h had school last night. I worked a bit late and then went to the grocery store. I had just gotten home and was making dinner when he got home. It was kind of whirlwind.

He told me how excited he was about my decision to leave work. He's completely supportive which is great. thing is, after making some mental steps yesterday about quitting, I may be changing my mind back. I told h that I didn't want him to be disappointed if I decided to stay...that I was trying to decide what to do.

We started a more in depth conversation about it and I told him that I had been yearning to quit for a while now but had always convinced myself that I COULDN'T. Yesterday was the first time when I allowed myself to believe that I COULD. That I was the only thing standing in my way. And, once I had that realization, the desire to quit seemed to ebb a bit -- I said to him "once I decided I could do it, had the freedom to do it, I didn't feel as strong a pull anymore".

He seemed perplexed by that. Scrunched up his face a bit (my projection?), said he didn't think he'd ever felt that way.

I can't remember what exactly he SAID but I felt as though he was kind of picking at me for potentially changing my mind.

So out popped "well, you've changed your mind about things. You once wanted to end our marriage. To get a divorce. Remember? I feel like you are judging me for this decision."

I didn't say it in an angry tone. But I was HORRIFIED as soon as it was out of my mouth.

Where the heck did THAT come from??? And what was my point in bringing THAT up? Goodness -- it was awful.

His face closed down. His eyes got dark. He said "I don't understand what that has to do with anything and I don't want to talk about it anymore."

I said "please don't do that. Don't pull away. I'm sorry I said it."

He said "I want to watch the game."

So, even though my heart was cracking I left and gave him space. When the game was over I came back up and said "I don't even know what point I was trying to make and I'm incredibly sorry that I said that."

He responded "I don't give a crap what you do with your job. I was just trying to talk with you about it."

I said "yes, I know".

I retreated to cry in the other room.

I seriously was dismayed by what I had said and also my use of the word "judging" with him.

Not a minute later he came to the room. He said "honey, stop crying, stop feeling badly. stand up and give me a hug." He continued "please, stop making yourself feel badly about this. I can't see you this way. There's nothing that you could ever say that should make you feel this badly about yourself." Then he leaned down and whispered in my ear "I don't want a divorce."

Sigh.

I have been waiting to hear those words for more than a year and a half. It may seem absurd given all the positives in my sitch but h had never reconfirmed his desire to stay married verbally. But now he has.

He asked me to come sit with him while he studied. So I did.

I'm feeling overwhelmed with good luck and gratitude. His reactions to me are unbelievably positive and thoughtful.

As for "things that don't work" -- the conversation had quite a few negative elements (all my doing) -- it was late, he was watching tv, I was emotional, I brought something loaded up that actually had little to do with what was going on, I was reactive, I made negative judgements about his intent, I was defense...blah, blah.

thank goodness I had a few points scored up!

As for the comment itself -- I think it was a horrible combo of reacting emotionally to my lunch with mom, a dinner with an old friend the other day, my work sitch and then feeling like h wasn't hearing that I wasn't sure what I wanted to do but that I was concerned about his reaction AND that I wanted some time to mull things over.

Anyway -- no excuses -- just an attempt to understand how I let myself get caught in that web!

Thoughts on “power” and what it may (or may not) mean:

OK, can we call you the "Brain Pickee"? Have you ever contemplated giving up "power" by changing YOUR behaviors and H not owning up to his own mistakes/actions? A woman at work thinks that I am giving my H too much benefit of the doubt and that I shouldn't blame only myself. I don't blame only myself, but blaming him isn't getting me anywhere, is it? Were you afraid of being a doormat by forgiving him for A and the like?




Karen -- Hey, I thought you were going to stop talking to those well-meaning friends

I have a thousand thoughts about answering your question...let's see if I can get them out serially

I have certainly had my share of moments of doubt or feeling worried that I was somehow condoning or giving an OK to infidelity by the way that I have approached my sitch. I have also had flashes (sometimes lasting a LONG time) of anger, resentment, worry, blame, etc. I'm certain that there were times when I feared that I was setting myself up, being weak, whatever.

But the crux and tone and foundation of my DB'ing and the way I'm choosing to live my life and be in the marriage is about trying to focus my energies on the places I can control -- that is, me and my behaviors.

Power? Heck, I had plenty of POWER for the first 7 years of my m. and we both paid dearly for it. I am infinitely happier NOW that I've come to realize that being an equal partner with my husband means being as respectful as I can of who he is as a person, an individual and not viewing his gains as my losses and visa-versa.

How do you lose, karen, by making yourself the best, most whole, most integrated, most compassionate person you can be? How does your focus on improving YOU and taking responsibility for what you're bringing to the table in anyway make him more powerful than you are? Have the upper hand? I honestly don't think it's a zero-sum game, Karen, where what you concede he grasps etc.

I have to admit that I've surprised myself, even, by realizing that I don't HAVE to gate my progress on h's willingness to work on his own stuff (which, amazingly, he's clearly picked up and worked on on his own). It's a fundamental principle of DB'ing but it also shows up in so much else I've read or listened to -- "Your buddha nature" (kornfield), "the four agreements" and "the mastery of love" (ruiz), etc.

I don't want power anymore, Karen, over my h or my m. It was a false sense of it anyway because in the end, his desire to leave left me feeling mighty powerless. Now, though, we've each got more harmony than we know what to do with...and that's much more powerful.

Ah, yes…visiting the planet of the apes!:

In honor of h, I would like to add another phrase to our lingo -- akin to "itchy butt" -- I will call it "Maybe he's visiting the Planet of the Apes"

The story...sometime over the weekend, h and I were in the car coming back from the movies. We had spent a lot of time together that day -- had fun, some intimate moments, etc, and were heading home after seeing something or other (I can't remember!). Anyway, I was driving and h was sitting beside me -- looking deep in thought. I was silent. I was thinking "gosh, what is he thinking about? He looks so serious! Is it me? We spent so much time together today! Is it XYZ?"

Finally, h breaks the silence and says "I've just figured out a significant plot hole in the movie 'The Planet of the Apes'. Well, besides the obvious plot holes of time travel and a planet inhabited by ape-like men." He then proceeded to tell me the results of his deep thoughts.

My h is totally adorable. Totally clever. And sometimes when he's lost in thought he's NOT ruminating on me, our m, etc. Sometimes he's just visiting the planet of the apes.

Sage

[sage]

My 20th thread:
20th thread

Communication thoughts:

Spent yesterday (Saturday) doing errands, hiking (early!) and then visiting my sister and her baby for a few hours in the afternoon. h was still heavily involved in his paper. When I got home he had called it a day so we hung around, watched a bit of tv (Nomar trade ) and then got cozy . I wasn't sure what he was up-for in terms of plans for the evening (stay in? movie?) so I was trying to be accommodating but so was he so we both ended up being sort of indecisive. I did have an eye opening experience...he kept saying "do you mind if we do X instead of Y" -- I was completely personalizing the "do you mind" part -- hearing instead "I think you WILL mind because you are so inflexible but I'm going to ask anyway" so I finally said to h "I'm going to have to stop depersonalizing that sentence because it's driving me crazy" and he said "when I say 'do you mind' I'm already assuming that you won't but I want to ask out of courtesy anyway".

SO...not sure if that made sense to anyone but me but once again I'm reminded that depersonalizing and taking a positive view enhances our communication.

Another thing (probably cryptic to all but me) -- a really big positive in the area of communication -- we're going on vacation next week and we had decided not to take our bikes (h is a bigger and better biker than I am). I told him that I was relieved that we weren't taking them because I find it a big hassle. Well, the next day h said to me "I think I've changed my mind. Do you mind (LOL) if we do take the bikes afterall?" This is a biggie. H knew my feelings but still expressed his even though they were in opposition. I can't tell you how pleased that made me!

I've been meaning to post for weeks about some thoughts I had on our communication. I had been ASSuming that the most important part of improving it was facilitating h's telling me things (either good or bad). I've realized, though, that yah, it's about that (hearing the good stuff, hearing the bad stuff) but it's also about being able to tell him how I feel (good and bad). I think I've been ignoring how important it is to h that he knows what I'm thinking and feeling. I also think that a major component for him is knowing when I am happy, when I am satisfied and if I'm not, what can be done to change it. Perhaps this sounds like "communication for dummies" but this really is an area that I think we're growing in every day.

The perfection trap:

Last night he was in full study mode so I suggested that I pick up dinner on the way home. I realized something about the exchange that may or may not prove interesting to anyone but me...

I knew that h was in full study mode. I knew that he was probably feeling stressed. I wanted to do what I could to relieve that stress but wasn't sure if I should a) plan dinner at home (get food, etc) or b) suggest going out or c) ask.

c probably seems like the obvious choice but there was a part of me that wanted to KNOW what h would find most relaxing. Not sure if that's silly or not but sometimes I feel lame (lame, lame) for saying "what would you like to do" because sometimes when you're stressed don't you just want someone to destress you?

then, it occured to me that THIS is a time when I often pull away from h...when I'm just not sure what the right thing is to do to please/delight/relax him. THAT made me wonder if sometimes when h is distant or guarded if (in fact) it might have to do with feeling that he doesn't know what to do next.

OK, I'm babbling.

so, my solution was to call h and suggest that I would bring home dinner unless he had wanted to go out. He was enthusiastic. My dinner pick-up wasn't seamless (couldn't get what I wanted, etc) but we were both lowkey about it, food was good, etc.

NOW...perhaps you're thinking...cripes, all she was doing was picking up dinner! BUT to me it was about...

getting to a point where I wasn't sure what the right thing to do was in terms of being supportive of h

NOT withdrawing and taking a distanced attitude (per normal)

having an action plan (dinner) but phrasing it in such a way to h that I think he felt he could suggest a different plan

NOT freaking out when the plan didn't go exactly, well, to plan

sometimes I think that I get way too wrapped up in being PERFECT in terms of executing my plan...so when it doesn't go just right h feels the stress of me stressing.

Yawn. I've bored even myself at this point.

Anyway...it was a good mini-milestone for me. Lots of little steps.

Thoughts on STILL not having “R” talks much:

I am curious - I read on another thread that 2 years on, you are still finding R talks difficult, and manage chat time on long walks etc. Just wondering how you manage to live with what must be a number of 'unresolved' issues - or are there simply none?




well...I'm not sure I'll be able to answer this concisely, so bear with me.

There's kind of three categories in my mind as to "unresolved" issues -- there's the stuff that happened in the past (h's EA, what he deemed as a precursor to it [WHY, for example], what happened after I found out, etc); there's the stuff that's "present day" (day to day issues that might need resolution) and then there's the stuff that's "future" (topic of kids perhaps, how to avoid future issues that may lead to unhappiness, infidelities, etc).

Let me deal with the easy one first:

Present day stuff -- well, we just have FAR FEWER issues on a day to day basis. Why? well, I think we've both worked at it -- I've stopped getting angry and personalizing everything, I've worked hard on dropping control, h is much more attentive to me and stuff around the house, we're both lots more appreciative and considerate of the other, etc.

Simply put, we don't NEED to have R talks about our daily existence because there just doesn't seem to be a need.

That's the easy one, no?

The past and the future stuff is lots harder for me...and sometimes I do great with it and sometimes I'm internally a big mass of fear and terror and sometimes I'm internally a big mass of resentment and anger and sometimes I'm externally less than my perfect self (reacting in fear, anger, sadness, whatever).

The PAST stuff is, well, past...and on good days I can think (thanks to lots of hard work and the constant reinforcement of my BB friends!) that the WHYS and LIES and WHEREFORES of the EA aren't what matters TODAY. So, I can drop the "how could this have happened" and the desire for details of their R and in particular the desire for details on HOW it ended and whether or not there has been contact since.

So, sometimes these things FEEL like unresolved issues to me but they HAVE to be in some fashion, no? Because they're in the PAST and can't be changed and even if h could pinpoint for me the exact crossing of the line moment, would that help? dunno.

Mostly I've gotten to the point where I don't obsess on the details of the past...not always, though If I'm tired or stressed or not feeling well physically I can sometimes get myself wrapped around an axle. And I'm sort of loathe to admit it but parts of our recent vacation were bittersweet...2 years ago h was in full-EA mode when we vacationed in Maine and there were definite internal moments of "ugh, remember how he HAD to have his laptop with him?" and "ugh, remember that secret smile he gave to himself" blah, blah.

The FUTURE stuff is ok, too, but sometimes hard for me to navigate. I can get caught up in "how does this never happen again if we can't even talk about why it happened?" and "what if he isn't able to tell me he's unhappy" and "he said it had never felt right to him...what if he feels that way again" and on and on.

So what brings me out of that?

Well, focusing on the daily positives. Doing what WORKS (spending time with h, meditating, exercising, etc). NOT doing what DOESN'T work (R talks, ASSumptions, personalizing, being reactive). I remind myself that DB'ing got me this far (woohoo!) and can help to take me further too....working on the areas that still feel particularly scary to me in my sitch (communication, etc)...being PATIENT, etc.

Is this long winded answer helping? Alas, probably not.

How do I manage unresolved issues?

Short answer: by focusing on what I CAN control and using DB techniques, by shedding what I CAN'T control, by accepting (through meditation, reading, buddhism audiotapes) that life itself is unresolved and uncertain, by trying not to make myself feel CRAPPY if I do get stuck down a cheeseless tunnel, by focusing on the positives, by keeping an open mind about how h shows me his love, by SLOWING DOWN, by realizing that I have TIME every day to make things better and more positive and by NOT REACTING when I get riled up inside and oh-so-afraid. Oh, and reminding myself that I've been thru this pain and could get thru it again and that I would be OK NO MATTER WHAT.

Yikes. Lots of words. I hope some helped.

FWIW -- and maybe it doesn't feel this way to you now -- but I think that your h actually is displaying a pretty amazing amount of "honesty" and "disclosure" with you...even though I'm sure it's super-painful to be in limbo and ambiguity and sadness and hurt mode WITH him...I think it's good that he's sharing that part with you...I didn't get a view into how h dealt with ENDING his EA and that's actually part of what I can get stuck in a bit.

Notes from “why men won’t commit”:

Thought I'd post some notes from a book I just read (skimmed) called "Why Men won't Commit" by Weinberg. I have to say that I'm not a huge fan of the book -- I don't like the title much (what he's trying to explain is what can block commitment) and I also think it wasn't fleshed out well enough -- early on in the book I felt like he was making it seem as though men are without emotional reserves or capacity and that women should twist themselves into pretzels...

that being said...I do think that a generalization of his concepts is still applicable...in particular that when a man feels special, able to maintain some independence, trusting of intimacy and certain of your loyalty that he is more willing to commit.

Notes from “Why Men Won’t Commit”

All men have:
The need to be special – to be appreciated not just as “a man” but in a personal way.

The need to travel light – some sense that he has control of his own time, money and decisions about where he goes and with whom

The need for loyalty – he needs you completely on his side

The need to be close emotionally – he’ll feel deeply hurt if he feels closeness is missing

The need to be special:
“See me as I really am, not only as I pretend to be”

He longs for a woman who accepts both his strengths and his weaknesses and who knows more about him than anyone else does.

See him as he really is and encourage him to reveal his true self to you

Present yourself as interested, able to listen and not critical

Treat him as an equal – not too high! If he gets the sense that you see him as perfect, he’ll want to keep that image going.

The more relaxed you can make yourself the more comfortable he will feel about revealing himself to you.

Be positive about yourself and he will be positive about you. Don’t second guess yourself. Don’t apologize for anything in your life. Speak positively about other people.

Any question that invites him to elaborate on how he feels about something will qualify as an attempt to get to know the real him.

Don’t ask about “vital statistics” – ask about feelings.

Stay in the here and now. Let the present occupy you fully.

Discuss what matters to you in your life right now and he will talk about what matters to him.

Your ability and willingness to see your man as an individual is primary because you can’t really love someone unless you see who that person really is.

Men stay in love when “the woman I love sees me and loves me as no one else ever can or will”

Need to travel light:

Men’s need to travel light is excessive and symbolic. He needs to see himself as a “free agent”

You man will watch for signs of what life with you will permit. He interprets things as whether his freedom will continue or be snuffed out if he commits himself to you.

Getting what you want while he travels light – you can actually use your man’s neurotic need to travel light to your advantage. He’ll be so thankful for the space that you give him that he’ll want to make you happy.

Just as your man may feel irrationally cornered if you ask him on Tuesday to pin down his weekend, he can feel disproportionately great if you offer him some small freedom.

Keep a fair balance of giving – he is terrified that he will be asked to change from “independent to caretaker”.

Men see making money as a sign of virility. For men, money equals potency and poverty equals impotence to a degree that women find it impossible to understand. Help your man to see that to you money is something used not to offset the cost of a bomb shelter but to enrich your life. Let him see that you care about balancing the relationship just as much as he does and that you are willing to pay what you can to enrich your lives together. There’s a thin line between letting him build his ego by helping you and allowing him to give too much after which he will feel bad. Patrol the balance and things won’t get out of hand.

Don’t be an emotional heavyweight—conversation may feel natural to you but your probing emotional questions can feel unnatural and burdensome. Limit the time you spend discussing what you don’t like. Spare him the regular role of telling you that things are better than they seem. Be careful not to ask for too much reassurance. Doing this forces him into an emotional territory that he may not wish to visit at the moment. You have the right to ask him sometimes. As with negative feelings, personal insecurity often cures itself when you don’t announce it. Lighten up if you can. Don’t make statements that are actually thinly disguised questions. To your man, traveling light signifies that he is still an individual and that you two are freely choosing each other and not tied together in a knot. No man wants to feel trapped. Allow a full share of separateness. Trust your man to come to you naturally. Don’t steer too much or he won’t come at all.

Make sure that he has time for himself – In his propagandized mind, the difference between a man and a boy is that a man can decide what he wants to do and can spend as much time as he wants doing it. The less he feels a demarcation between “before you” and “after you” (in terms of activities he can do) the better he’ll feel. He’ll also gauge how easy it is for him to escape from you when he needs space. If you can resist the paranoid reaction that every time he backs off the relationship is over, it will help both of you.

The need for loyalty:
Taking a chance on real closeness is by far the biggest gamble of his life. He needs to be convinced of your sexual loyalty, your loyalty to who he truly is (apart from what he brings to the relationship) and your loyalty to his presentation in public.

Show him that you are loyal to his special essence which will never change.

Remember to keep emphasizing the personal qualities that made his attainments possible (so focus on him not on the attainments)

Show that you understand that his challenges are the same as anyone else’s.

Never tell a story in public that makes your man look bad. Let him tell the story if he wants to. If you can legitimately praise your man publicly for a trait that he takes special pride in, you are showing loyalty beyond the call of duty.

Even when arguing try to avoid making general statements that attack the image of himself that your man wants to present to the world.

He wants you to love him unconditionally and he wants you to help the world see him in the best possible light.

The need to be close emotionally:
Remember the highs and lows of your mans ongoing life.

We love people whom we make happy, whose lives we improve. Let him know that he is improving your life by his freely made investments of love and caring and he will want to do more of the same.

Show him that he doesn’t have to watch every word he says to you. Don’t brood. Try not to hang onto injury or anger in response to anything he talks about, even if it’s something that has you upset for the moment. If you find yourself so angry that you can’t forgive him for something, try to talk it out with him.

Don’t seize on good moments either – simply enjoy them. Let your man see that you have no desire to wrench huge commitments our of momentary displays of caring. Give him confidence that if he missteps he can fix things instantly.

Create an atmosphere in which subject matter can change quickly, in which either of you can go from a serious subject to a laugh to something irrelevant then back to a serious subject. The key is emotional availability – the ability to respond to the other person’s mood and need.

Emotional availability – the ability to alter an outlook so as to stay in harmony with someone else (he also uses the word “inflexible” to describe the opposite)

Aim for an atmosphere in which your man can see that you won’t be critical of him almost no matter what he tells you about himself. Remember the value of being positive about people in general – how can he tell you he was once briefly married if you criticize divorced people as stupid or irresponsible? How can he tell you that he turned down a good job he didn’t feel ready for if you are complaining that your colleagues have no guts if they shy away from a promotion?

If you seem able to identify with other people and are open minded, he is more apt to come forward (why do I think that being SELF-critical will also block his disclosures??? Because if we’re perfectionists about ourselves, how can they live up to that?)

Even if you dislike what you heard, you needn’t say so immediately. Live with the information for a while.

Remember that whenever a man tells you something he wouldn’t ordinarily disclose, he is watching very closely to see how you react.

When your man comes to you with a problem, don’t feel that you have to offer him a solution…far more important is giving him time to talk.

Try to understand and learn what your man’s “personal myth” is (this is the deepest, most firmly entrenched way that he sees himself). Note what he tells you about his special dreams; see what things hurt him most when people challenge him – these identify components of the myth.

Anyone can love us for their own reasons but we want to spend a lifetime with someone who also loves us for the exact reasons we love ourselves.

The ultimate bond that leads to marriage is a respect for each other’s self-image.

Men are often embarrassed to say how much they want to feel part of a loving family.

Sex:
When your man feels sexually accepted and wanted, a spectacular kind of bonding occurs

You look to sex for pleasure, intimacy, to be closer. But your man, along with these motives, makes love to prove he’s a man, as if the verdict isn’t in yet.

Surprisingly, the key is to stay focused on what you want and what you enjoy. Your being open, loose and having a good time will make your man happiest if he’s even a halfway caring person.

Try to make sex a dream world. Give sex a place of its own – a refuge where fantasy and reality meet. Trust the sexual experience to speak for itself. Never use it as a deliberate device for any purpose.

He has the fantasy of a woman who wants him and wants sex with him for who he is.

Friends/Family:
If you really want to make your friends/family hideous intruders into your love life, quote them in an argument or use them as leverage (“most of the people at the party thought you were awfully quiet and wondered what was wrong”).

Arguing:

The key to being effective in your arguments is to stay relevant (to the point) and never withdraw support for any of his four basic needs.

Never compare your man unfavorably with other men as a device to make a point

Never make more than one criticism at a time. A single enhancement suggestion here and there is fine but a sweeping self-improvement program will activate his worst fears of being confined and remade.

Never convey that he had no idea what he was doing before he met you.

The most usual form of disloyalty during an argument is to enlist other people to support you. This is a horrendously bad idea. Quoting your friends and family to him during an argument will appear as a betrayal.

The two most damaging insults in fighting are sarcasm and sexual insults. Sarcasm has a way of resonating in the other person’s brain.

No matter how angry you get never slash at your man’s personal myth, his vitally important vision of himself and what could be.

The first rule of arguing: Allow your man to go on liking himself, even while you are contesting him on some point. If he treasures something about himself, why would he want to spend his life with a woman who calls that picture of his into question?

In closing:
Don’t forget that your own self-esteem and fulfillment are most important. Find a balance in which your man is fulfilled and also in which he appreciates your needs and wants to fulfill them too.

Why is it so hard for me to see that preserving, respecting, lauding, appreciating h's view of himself, his "essence", his "personal myth" is so key? One of the particular challenges for me, I think, is understanding truly what his view of himself is (what is key to him? what viewpoint of himself is most important?) and how to preserve uncoditional acceptance for those key areas even in the face of contradictory behavior...

IOW, one of h's hot buttons is not being trusted...being queried...ok, so perhaps I brought some bigtime negativity to the M. by being untrusting/paranoid/etc -- not "getting" it -- but now isn't the ultimate challenge somehow still preserving that image, protecting it, given what's happened? And yet, isn't it somehow critical for us to both be able to view h as capable and committed to loving me, fidelity, preserving our M, etc?

Doing a 180 while fighting:

Well errand night stunk

I got home kind of wiped out. H was raring to go (too cute!). We did a few errands and then got into an inane fight in the parking lot of Best Buy. I asked him a vague question about what he just bought (my bad), he answered but misunderstanding what I asked, I asked again (still vague?), he answered, I said "ok, ok", he said "I don't understand why you're so irked. LET'S GO HOME."



It doesn't happen often anymore (we don't seem to fight much) but it was sort of typical -- we get into a mild skirmish, h ASSumes I'm mad, he suggests going home. Normally, I try to argue him out of calling it quits but last night I just said "ok".

We went home. I made pizza and read a book. He went out.

Historically his departure would have sent me into a morass of fear and tears but I'm LEARNING to not take his leaving as a sign that he's LEAVING.

It helped that he too stepped out of his normal role a bit and said "I'm going to get something to eat" -- normally he just leaves in a huff which increases my fear and sadness.

I left him a note apologizing for my vague questions and thanking him for letting me know he was going out.

He came home after about an hour...didn't say anything about my note...didn't talk to me at all (common). I went to bed.

After another hour or so of silence this AM (tho' we did go to the gym together), he broke the ice a bit, I responded, etc. We both said ILY before he left for school.

We'll be fine with this -- nothing too out of the ordinary fightwise. I think I've just been having a tough week and I'm ready to break out of that. We're going out of town for the weekend and I think that will help.

More thinking this AM on the way to work...I've been revisiting old hurts and grievances...still struggling to forgive some of the things that happened so long ago...that's MY problem and I'm working on letting them go...no longer holding h and me hostage to the past.

Chatting with h about communication:

We had a VERY interesting talk while we were hiking. A nice little breakthru, actually, and it's rejuvenated me quite a bit. I think I may even ressurect my KLA thread (that's where I've been working on my "goals").

So...topic was our house. h has expressed some strong feelings of late about wanting to move. We have an old (!!!) house that is wonderful in many ways but is also lacking in many ways. We could spend big $ to update it to address its shortcomings but in recent months 1 commercial developer has bought a large lot near us and started building on it and a second is on its way...our street is a cut thru street so we've seen the traffic on our sleepy little street go up astronomically. It's unlikely to improve and will probably get worse...

The house (or selling it, to be exact) has always been a sore spot for me...I think it just comes down to wanting to feel grounded...feeling afraid that without that security, well, all hell would break loose. I've loosened that grip quite a bit over the last few years though it remains an internal struggle sometimes. Simply put, the house respresents security in my warped mind...and the thoughts of getting rid of it scare me at times...plus, it has $ issues wrapped up in it, too...until h gets out of law school we won't have an increase in our income AND I had actually been hoping to downsize my job a bit...

Well..I have been working very hard on being less reactive about it -- partly because I've realized that it's a house -- not some magic bullet that saves me from all turmoil , partly because when the bomb dropped I HAD to accept that we might get D and I wouldn't be able to stay there, and partly because it's GOOD for me to shake myself up every so often...

anyway, we talked a bit about it yesterday...it started out as a tough conversation...we were trying to establish what our individual stances were...what our relative time frame was, etc. It turns out that we're on the same page about what features we like/don't like and we agreed to target the Spring time frame to move if possible.

I did step on h's toes at one point...I was trying to articulate that I didn't want to rush into this headlong...that I thought the house needed work before we could easily sell it...that I wanted to plan a few months as opposed to just throwing it on the market. he took that personally and said "yah, I know that. You're making it sound like I'm panicking and want to do this today. I never panic."

well...it was a good thing I was walking in front of him so he couldn't see my face which would have (unforgivingly? meanly? quizzically?) have been transmitting "oh? what about 2 years ago, almost to the DAY, when you told me you were quitting your job and did so the next day?" Of course the "panic" then was ow related...

anyway, I made some validating response but h clearly got it because in a few minutes he said .... "look....the house is completely distinct from us...there's no ultimatum here...or suggestion that we have to move or I'll leave you forever...we're just working on this together".

Point being, I suppose, that he wasn't gonna drop some mini-house-related bomb on me.

He told me that he felt a thousand times better because we have "a plan".

THEN he told me that he thought these kinds of conversations were difficult for us. I asked what he thought would make them better and he said "well, it seems like we both come in with assumptions about what the other person wants or thinks. I think it just makes sense for us to say 'this is what I'm assuming. is that true?'" Wise man, my h...

I offered up the notion that I sometimes can't HEAR what's actually important or a priority to him because it gets intermingled with the rest of the conversation. I think he got that.

'twas very nice to have a conversation with my h about how to improve our communication. GOOD STUFF!!!

Slowing down helps me a lot!

what I've found really helps me is simply slowing down..realizing that I don't have to react or respond instantaneously...it gives me the opportunity to really listen more and to communicate my thoughts! The added benefit has been that by slowing down I am much better matched with h's conversational pace and he talk A LOT more!!!

Ten steps of acceptance from “how can I forgive you”:

1. You honor the full sweep of your emotions.

2. You give up your need for revenge but continue to seek a just resolution.

3. You stop obsessing about the injury and reengage with life.

4. You protect yourself from further abuse.

5. You frame the offender's behavior in terms of his own personal struggles.

6. You look honestly at your own contribution to the injury.

7. You challenge your false assumptions about what happened.

8. You look at the offender apart from his offense, weighing the good against the bad.

9. You carefully decide what kind of relationship you want with the offender.

10. You forgive yourself for your own failings.

After a big backslide:

Took your advice. Apologized. Ask for input on what happened. His response was familiar -- that he screwed up (affair) but that he feels like I may forgive him but never forget it and that he will never forgive himself and he doesn't want to look back in 20 years and regret staying married. That he feels like it will always be something between us and that he doesn't want to live his life that way.

Claims that I'm fooling myself if I think I can get over it. Thinks it's the "devil I know" that keeps me here.

We talked a fair amount. Says my desire for more closure (thru conversation) just hurts him -- he doesn't want to talk or even think about the affair. Says that he knows he was the one who planted the landmines, etc.

I don't know how to "convince" him that we won't end up in a similar sitch to last night because I'm not sure it's true...I'm trying as hard as I can to manage my insecurities, etc. I don't think it's a neverending proposition but he doesn't want to hear that.

I told him that I didn't want to try to talk him out of D even though it's not what I want.

It sounds absurd but I don't think the good times are enough for him...he wants a clean slate.

OK -- sorry for the total freak out, everyone. I asked h to look at my resume for school and after I handed it to him he apologized, said he didn't want a D, said he couldn't imagine living without me.

He also said "would you help me?" but didn't elaborate on what that exactly meant.

We had some more tender words.

God. What a mess. Or, what a stepping stone...

Thanks for the rallying around me, folks.

Sage