I don't want to give the impression that I'm afraid to stand up for myself. I'm not. And I'm not afraid of him.
I think, and again, your post may have clarified this for me...I want to make sure that I do the right thing to heal the relationship.
This time last year, literally, we were weeks away from a divorce. Now we're talking and actually have a relationship again.
I will admit that in a way, *I'm afraid* that confronting him will send us back to that place. It's a weakness I'll admit. But I hope that's a small part of it.
I've gotten as far as we have by applying the divorcebusting techniques. In a way, what I've done is totally against my first instinct, which is to confront and lay down the law.
It may be a matter of my deciding how long I'm going to give him to work his own problems out before I give up and divorce him. Since he doesn't seem willing to admit that he has a problem, he may never work them out. But do I throw away an (almost) 20 year marriage on 1 year of, okay I admit it, horrible behavior?
Also, the moment may come when I feel like "it's time to call him on this"
I could be just prolonging the inevitable...I don't know.
and, kind of off topic from this particular post, but I think a big part of the appeal of this place was the "big shot" treatment he must get due to the amount of money he spent there...
Slowly all the roles we act out become our Identity,
And in the end we are what we pretend to be.
-Jerry Cantrell
MustangSally. How about asking about the withdraws are a form of a progress report.
dear Mr Mustang. A year ago we were about to D because of money spent at strip clubs, and DWI. Now I feel like we have a chance to stay married. Can you tell me how you have been staying away from the strip joints and where you are in this process. I need your opinions and also need to see on paper what you have done since XX date.
I can imagine it is difficult to stay away fron those places. Are the times when you want to go the clubs again? Do you recognise triggering events that make you want to return to the club? Can you tell me what you do when those trigger events take place? Is there something I can do to help you think less about the clubs? I don't expect perfection, so please answer honestly. I need some facts so I can set goals for myself, and goals for the relationship.
OG Lou PS I am not a big fan of "It's my money" once there are children involved. Personal expences are OK, strip clubs, drinking, and DUI's are not personal expences.
Your idea is an excellent one, but it assumes that he will admit he is commited to me. I've been trying to get him to do that now for months.
He filed for divorce, it had nothing to do with the stripclubs, that started later, in fact, it started after he dropped the divorce case.
I believe he loves me. I don't know if he realizes it. But most of his actions, and his reactions to me show it.
I am his scapegoat. Even if we divorced, I would still be the cause of all his problems. At least now, I've gotten him to the point where he maybe somewhat realizes that he blames me for everything. We kid around about it now, I even apologized about the bad weather, because, you know, it's all my fault.
He has never ever said that he wanted to stay married to me. He dropped the divorce proceedings for whatever reason...but he will not say he wants to stay married, he will not say he won't go to the strip clubs.
I think part of our issues is his family history. Everyone in his family: aunts, uncle's, parents, both set of grandparents, his brother, have been divorced. He had no idea what marriage was like, and I don't think he entered into it for life. In fact I think the only reason he's still around is that he really does love me. But he, subconsiously at least, EXPECTS divorce.
Anyway, I'm trying to figure out someway to make this a productive conversation, and I think your approach is a good one. I'm just not sure I can get even that much of a commitment from him now.
Sad but true.
He hasn't told me anything about his court dates, by the way. I may even start with that and see where it leads.
This really sucks because I was starting to relax a little, and now I'm so stressed again.
Slowly all the roles we act out become our Identity,
And in the end we are what we pretend to be.
-Jerry Cantrell
quote: ------------ I need to make decisions. ------------
Yep.
------------ I just doubt this will just go away. ------------
Probably not.
Rather than a heated confrontation, why don't you sit down with him. Let him know what you would like from the marriage. Keep it simple and the list short. Then ask him what his intentions are regarding the strippers, and your marriage. Ask him to be specific. Don't yell or get angry. Be calm and collected.
If he dumps some non-specific wafflers special in your lap, then you decide what you are willing to do. If he is willing to work on the marriage, then you two can discuss what needs to happen.
If he waffles, thank him and end the conversation. From that point on, you start planning for you and your kids lives, financially and otherwise, without him. Lose the fear, and devise a plan.
If you haven't had a chance to read "Love Must Be Tough" by Dobson, I suggest that you do asap. It may be time to kick his butt off the fence. There is a limit to the crap a person can put up with regardless of whose approach you use in addressing the issues. You can't live in fear of his character (or the lack of it) forever.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Last night we had a convo. I got the usual answers, I don't love you anymore, there's no reason to work on the marriage...
So, I pretty much give up. It's a sad situation, really. I wouldn't have stuck it out this long if I didn't honestly believe that he loves me, and has other issues that he needs to work out before he can see it. I still feel that way. It sounds patronizing, but I know that he really does love me, and just doesn't know it.
He asked me what I want from the marriage and I tell him all I want is to be part of his life, and to spend some time with him.
The strippers didn't even come up, they didn't need to. At this point I don't think he's been sucked into that world again,(yet) but the fact that he's going is a symptom of his lack of respect for me.
Funny thing, he kept asking me if I thought he was happy, and I kept telling him he needs to answer that. I think he has some idea that I need to be able to read his mind? I can't figure that one out. I started to tell him he seems to be feeling better, and then decided that somehow he's trying to trap me, and decided to not play guessing games with him. I think he believes that if I don't know how he's feeling, we must not be in tune...or something. We've been through that before.
We don't do anything together outside of the house. I don't get to be anything to him but his nagging wife.
If he refuses to work on his problems, I can't solve them. I think I was willing to give him time, but I don't know how much more of my life I can waste waiting.
I think GEL & OG Lou's messages just reminded me that there is no point in trying to get him to work on the marriage, when he refuses to admit he wants to try.
But we have still gone such a long way in a year...
Anyway NOPkins, I think you're right. I pretty much made the same decisions, got up in the middle of the night, read your message, and agreed with every word of it. I don't need the book though...seriously I can handle this part of it. I needed the DBing books because what they tell me to do is the exact opposite of the tough love approach that comes naturally to me. I don't know if I need to read any more books right now. I need to get on with my life, without him.
Slowly all the roles we act out become our Identity,
And in the end we are what we pretend to be.
-Jerry Cantrell
I hate to hear the tone of your messages...they sound so defeated, yet I understand how that is.
You mentioned more than once that you truly believe he loves you...but he doesn't know it? I know what you're saying (been there done that myself) BUT, sitting the fence doesn't force him to straighten up.....and I know what some of the books say, but I believe he has an addiction to these clubs and addicts need to be treated differently.
I'm also going to point something else out...because I want you to see what you are saying here....."At this point I don't think he's been sucked into that world again,(yet) but the fact that he's going is a symptom of his lack of respect for me." You say he's not been sucked back in but he's going? Um hon....he's sucked back in if he's going. He wouldn't be sucked in if he stayed away. Do you see how skewed your thinking on that is? It's as if you want to give him the benefit of the doubt so badly...that you're going to search for a way to do so.
I know how that is, I've excused behaviors myself w/my ex. The sad fact of the matter is this....if he's going to the strip club (I don't care if he spends money there or not) he's sucked back in. It's only a matter of time before the money starts disappearing into that place again.
Now please don't think I'm trying to berate you or tear you down....what I'm truly trying to do is prop you up. Sometimes w/an addict (which I truly believe he is) kicking them out is the best thing you can do for them. Forcing him to rock bottom, making him really see what he's losing can be the best medicine at times.
My only advice if you should ask him to leave is that you don't close the door to your heart. I made that mistake myself. My ex was an alcoholic, my leaving him was the proverbial smack upside the head with a 2"x4" that he needed as a wake-up call. It was the last day he took a drink, but it took me 2 years to stop being angry/hurt. He tried several times within a year and a half or so to get back with me, but I was tooo angry. Finally when I realized I wasn't angry any longer and wanted to try...he had moved on (who could blame him?). So, if you ask him to leave don't close the door to your heart. Make it clear (since I know you love him still) that there is a way back home...but tell him what must be done in order to come back.
I'm back to vent & journal a little. I was feeling pretty confrontational yesterday, went back & read the MLC stuff in the DBing board, and now I'm waffling again, a little.
I am still going to confront him. I'm trying to find the right words and the right time. I'm getting there. I think if I had done it right away, I would have said all the wrong things and not gotten through. He still probably won't hear anything I say, but I'm trying to make the right approach.
I've told him a couple times since the DWI that I don't think he's an alcoholic. I think I am leaning towards telling him. "I don't think you're an alcoholic, but you are addicted to that club, and since you are going there behind my back now, I need to make some choices about my kids and myself"
Remember, he has said over and over he doesn't want to work on the marriage, but I can remind him of some really bad choices he's made since he started going there. And the fact that he wasn't home when my son got home from school last friday is where I'm starting. It's not such a big deal (he's 13), but it shows where his priorities are. I've got lots more, way worse stuff, that I've posted about here before, so I won't go into details.
He likes to try to twist what he's doing and compare it to stuff I do...I like to go to concerts with friends. It's hilarious that he tries to equate it, especially since I don't do it that often. But I don't do anything I'm ashamed to tell my kids about, and I'd like to see him tell the kids what he's spent all that money on.
I'm sort of brainstorming arguments he's likely to pull on me. I don't want to argue with him, I want to make him see what he's doing to himself. I'm going to try to take the emphasis off me. That will be very hard, because I'm the center of the universe
Anyway, since our talk Monday night I have NOT been doing the "acting as if" thing. He knows something is wrong but he doesn't realize what it is.
GEL, just so you know, when I said "he's not sucked in", I just mean he's not getting the phone calls, not dumping tons of money...it's not out of hand. But I know he can't handle it, so that's why I put "yet". I'm not kidding myself on that point. But GEL you're very good at making me think of things from a different angle, so I appreciate your thoughts, belive me, I know you're not attacking me. (probably want to slap me upside the head...but there IS a method to my madness, believe it or not)
He is working late tonight (no, really) but I will still be a nutcase till he gets home...sigh
I really would like to crawl in a hole for a few days and NOT deal with anything else...sort of stop time around me. That's not possible, but I need a break. I can pretty much get out of the house by myself, but I would really like to just stay home and wallow for awhile. I honestly deserve it, you know?
Slowly all the roles we act out become our Identity,
And in the end we are what we pretend to be.
-Jerry Cantrell
I don't envy the position he's put you in...but your comment about him comparing what you do w/what he does and your response of "I don't do anything I'm ashamed to tell my kids about" made me want to add....."I wouldn't hesitate to take my kids with me when I go out." especially to concerts n'such.
Sally, My advice would be to not even attempt to try and get him to see what he's doing to himself--you know that's not going to work. If he's not listening to himself (his own conscience) he sure aint gonna listen to you.
Instead, I would focus on yourself and your own boundaries. What you will and will not tolerate. Then leave him alone and let him make his choices. You seem to be living in fear that he will leave. If he has spent 30K on foolish stuff, then I would say that he's already gone--he's just there in body. Make a kind but firm boundary and speak to him in a calm and detached voice. Confrontation does not necessarily mean a screaming match; it just means tackling the big white elephant in the room with you.
I just reread some of your responses and while I"m not going to respond directly today, you've all made some good points and I need to formulate a plan.
I have an immediate dilemna. First, let me say, stuff has happened around here, but nothing has really changed...I could go into more detail, but real quick like...he's been driving without a license for approximately two months due to the DWI and he did not follow up on one of the "actions" he could have taken to get a restricted license to get back and forth to work.
Frankly, IMO he has used this as an excuse to NOT do stuff he didn't want to do, like run to the grocery store, but with stuff he does want to do, like go to his baseball games, he hasn't had any problems driving.
Well, 2 weeks ago, he got arrested for driving w/o a license, on the way to one of his games. So I get a call at 11 PM another sleepless night dealing with his problems, yada yada.
He was eligible to get his license renewed a week later, and now has his license reinstated. Almost funny how he drove all that time w/o a license, and got arrested right before the renewal.
The week after his arrest, before his license, he actually called into work 3 out of 5 days, to avoid getting pulled over (he got pulled over in a routine roadblock type thing this last time).
He "invited" me to go to his baseball game. He would have missed the game if I hadn't taken him, because he was not going to risk driving. And I did do it, but I dropped him off and picked him up and didn't stay at the game. It sounds "doormat"like, but it made my point...you know..or maybe you don't. But it was the right way to handle it. He wants me to be a b*****, he wants me to yell at him about this, and I refuse. He knows how I feel, I don't have to say it.
So anyway, I also confronted him about going to "the club" said if he was going to do that, he needs to move out. He denied it, and I do NOT have proof that he's going. but I feel strongly that he's gone maybe once a month for the last 3 months. He told me that this whole experience has taught him a lot, that he feels things happen for a reason...he said a lot of things, but he never said he wasn't going again.
Anyway, Sunday is his birthday. I am sick of "being there" for him now. Though all the problems and stuff we've been dealing with, he's always made sure our "holidays" still happened. But right now I could just not care less. I want to "accidentally on purpose" forget his birthday. What I want to do if it comes up, is tell him that if he wants to go out to dinner with the kids, I'll give him money and they can go without me. Otherwise, I don't want to do anything for him.
I am tired of being there when he needs me and being pushed aside when he doesn't.
Then again, my plan through all of this was to "act as if" everything was OK...not let him push me into being the bad guy. I want him to look back down the road, no matter what happens, and see me as being the "adult" in this relationship.
I don't know if I'm venting or just asking advice about the birthday thing....still, on the surface, things are fine around here. But the birthday thing is a big dilemma for me. I think if I do anything, I'll just resent it and be angry.
I dunno...I've got to take my kid to drum lessons, so I guess I'll spare you any further rants...ya'all have a good weekend.
Slowly all the roles we act out become our Identity,
And in the end we are what we pretend to be.
-Jerry Cantrell
