Gd1, Just a quick note... I'm really confused! Where did I say that thing about people not being able to open their minds or hearts????
I appreciate your perspective, I really do. But, I would have appreciated it more if it had stopped before the assumptions began. That is what makes me weary about this board. I can't say enough that I don't blame the LBSs for their anger. I have felt that same anger. But, I have also found that it does nothing but poison ME, and that I can't live with that. Look, I was once the most jealous, angry, and bitter person out there. I was only hurting myself. All I was trying to do was point out that the whole "forgiveness is a gift you give yourself" thing is dead on.
I don't want to fight about this! It's not a fight! It's not Me, Mer, and Pen against the rest. I understand what you had to say about Pen...it's nothing that hadn't already crossed my mind. I realized just today that I took my prior knowledge of Pen into that thread...and my "defense" of her reflected that.
But, you see, with NO knowledge of Pen or what she was about, people jumped all over her. She was told that she didn't belong there. I didn't find that to be fair. The title of the thread was "Inside the mind of the OW." All that followed was a whole bunch of nasty comments. I don't blame her for jumping in and saying that it wasn't nice. It wasn't.
I still stand by my statement that Pen has lots of insight and that I find it admirable that she would attempt to share it, knowing full well that she will start these controversies. How is the suggestion to learn from Pen any different from the suggestion in Michelle's book that you should take a look at what your H sees in the OW...? No one is taking Michelle to task for "condoning" extramarital relationships. Because she's not!!! She's just saying that the sitch is what it is, and that you need to do with it what you can. If you choose to, that is. And, since all these people are on a site dedicated to saving marriages, well, I assumed that they were open to differing opinions. I looked at it as: If there is a fight to be had here, it is all of us fighting for better marriages, fighting for understanding of the WAS, etc. I really look at this board as a form of comradary. And, being a person that would rather hear another perspective than an "arf," well, I am guilty of offering up what I like.
I'm sorry if this doesn't sound nice. I'm not angry at you or anyone else. I guess I am just exasperated at this point. When a sentence starts with, "It sticks in my craw that..." well, my sensitive self steps in and wonders how in the world I managed to make anyone have a clogged-up craw!
I guess all I can do is stop speaking to this subject. Which also saddens me, because I sure could have used someone telling me that anger is poison way back in the day.
SO, I guess that ends this. I really am sorry for whatever I said that made you think that I think I'm right and others are wrong. I really don't think that. In fact, your post gave me lots to think about. It scares me to question it or comment on it though, because I don't want to be seen as combative. And, I'm slowly realizing that I must really come across that way despite the way I intend to come across.
Peace out back at ya.
And, Betsey, I am truly sorry for addressing this here. Looks like the reunion is over. Back to my hole for another few months.....
*grabbing Pam by the arm, desperately trying to drag her back out of the rabbit hole* Noooooo! We need the wry humor and piercing insight. Well, I guess if I have to wait another three months for you to pop out again, I can do that. Someone gimme a root beer float and a good novel, okay?
It was still awesome to see you, Pam. Love ya, Myrrh
One moment of patience may ward off great disaster. One moment of impatience may ruin a whole life.
O.K., Myrrh, I'll answer your quesion and THEN crawl back into my hole....
My world consists of 3 boys that keep me running! One is in 7th grade, one is a sophomore, and the oldest is a SENIOR. This makes me cry at the drop of a dime. I have no idea where this time went. I want my little boys back!!!
My relationship with my H is going great. We have made great strides, and while it is not perfect, I feel more secure and un-crazymaking-like than I have in a LOOOOONG time. You and your chompless self can understand this, I'm sure!
So, I work, go to school, DB my a$$ off, write to Mer daily, and cry a lot about my babies growing up. That about covers it! Oh, and when I'm not doing those things, I am at the soccer field. It's a full and wonderful life!
Thank you for asking.
I am so happy for all of us and our growth. And, I second your P.S. to Mer!!!
Pam- Thanks for the update! Life sounds good for you, and I am so happy. I totally understand where you and your H are at - not perfect but making progress is a really good place to be!
My baby boy is only two, and every stride he makes brings me to tears - you should have seen me the other day when his dad called me into the bathroom to see him get on the potty by himself for the first time. I was so proud and sad at the same time. I can't imagine him being a SENIOR! I'll have to take out stock in Kleenex!
I hope work and school keeps going well for you - HUGE HUGS to you, your H, and all your boys. They have a great wife and mom! Love, Myrrh
One moment of patience may ward off great disaster. One moment of impatience may ruin a whole life.
Dear Pam and Lyreal, I was really glad to hear that you were able to save your marriages! Or at least are on the path to it....I'm really happy for your happiness and remember feeling the joy after a brief separation and then reconciliation with my now X in l996.
Pam: I misspoke when I wrote my comment in the same paragraph that began "Meredith and Pamela" ...the comment was made my Meredith. I don't believe I said anything about your thinking that you were right and someone else was wrong...so you can see how easy it is for all of us to make assumptions based on what we thought we read or heard or saw or felt. I've never backed down from any discussion, believing perhaps that normal people can disagree and still be friends. Sounds like you feel the same way. When I said I might get hammered, I was really thinking that it would be for my stating that I believe most men are weak....and it really is a generalization that I should NOT believe, I just do.
I also assumed that you might not have walked in the shoes of a LBS with a very long term marriage, facing the long term effects of divorce. If I was in err, I apologize.
I can see that the title of the thread might have attracted Pen and that she was only trying to let others see inside her head. But it seems that the title really wasn't about seeing inside anybody's head...wasn't it about the Dr. Phil show where he didn't let the OWs rationalize there way out of accountability? Sometimes I try to come up with a catchy title, and maybe that's what was done there...but I really have no idea.
I agree that this isn't about you vs. them...I can't remember exactly what you posted on the MLC thread but I don't think it left me feeling that you were COMBATIVE. I think it left me feeling that you weren't seeing both sides in your support of your friend. As to what they said about OWs as being 'not nice'...hmmm. I can't think of anything nice to say about MY particular OW. I've heard hours of her talking to my now X...and no, I just can't think of anything nice to say. I admit that I thought MOST of what was said was kinda funny, but then, I have a really skewed sense of humor. I actually LOVE the names that some of our ladies come up with: 2 bits cracked me up. and there is another one, something about peanut butter I think. And of course there is FUG (fat, ugly girl).
Not nice? Oh probably not, but then not nice to whom? The OW? I find myself perplexed as to why I should be nice to the OW.
I do believe you have a good point re this board being open to all...and I think that telling Pen she didn't belong here was rather strong, if that was said. I remember someone ASKING Pen if she was having problems in her marriage and if that is why she was here...but I may just have missed someone saying that the OW doesn't belong on the marriage restoring, divorce BUSTING board. Of course, I doubt that there are many OWS who are trying to save their philandering boyfriend's marriages, do you?
Yes, assumptions do get tiring...I agree with you 100%. And tho I love the internet, the writing of words without hearing the intonation behind them makes for lots of hurts and misunderstandings. That's why I think it best to just leave that whole topic alone. I'm glad you were able to forgive the OW that was involved with your H. I'm glad that it brought you comfort and healing and maybe even saved your marriage. Is your H in a form of MLC do you think? I can also understand how, since it worked for you that you would like to share it, or help Pen share it, with others. I would bet that if you went back to that post, under an assumed name, and told YOUR story and how you were able to forgive and how it helped you heal, that the women posters there would write back a very supportive response and even say that that they are working towards that. But since we will never really know the levels of betrayal and resultant trauma that the individuals here have suffered, we really can't expect that our medicine might actually work for them in the same way.
good luck to you in your marriage and keeping your family together. Please don't run away from posting...just maybe leave that particular posting alone for awhile. I enjoyed discussing with you.
Dear Pam and Lyreal, I was really glad to hear that you were able to save your marriages! Or at least are on the path to it....I'm really happy for your happiness and remember feeling the joy after a brief separation and then reconciliation with my now X in l996.
Pam: I misspoke when I wrote my comment about 'minds not being open'in the same paragraph that began "Meredith and Pamela" ...the comment was made my Meredith,not you, and I may have even paraphased. I don't believe I said anything about your thinking that you were right and someone else was wrong'...so perhaps you can see how easy it is for all of us to make assumptions based on what we thought we read or heard or saw or felt. I've never backed down from any discussion, believing that kind people can disagree on almost anything and still be friends. Sounds like you feel the same way. When I said I might get hammered, I was really thinking that it would be for my stating that I believe most men are weak....and it really is a generalization that I should NOT believe, I just do.
I also assumed that you might not have walked in the shoes of a LBS with a very long term marriage, facing the long term effects of divorce. If I was in err, I apologize.
I can see that the title of the thread might have attracted Pen and that she was only trying to let others see inside her head. But it seems that the title really wasn't about seeing inside anybody's head...wasn't it about the Dr. Phil show where he didn't let the OWs rationalize there way out of accountability? Sometimes I try to come up with a catchy title, and maybe that's what was done there...but I really have no idea.
I agree that this isn't about you vs. them...I can't remember exactly what you posted on the MLC thread but I don't think it left me feeling that you were COMBATIVE. I think it left me feeling that you weren't seeing both sides of the sitch and that you were instead writing in support of and defense ofm your friend. As to what they said about OWs as being 'not nice'...hmmm. I can't think of anything nice to say about MY particular OW. I've heard hours of her talking to my now X...and no, I just can't think of anything nice to say. I admit that I thought MOST of what was said on the posts about names was kinda funny, but then, I have a really skewed sense of humor. (2 bits cracked me up. and there is another one, something about peanut butter I think)
Not nice? Oh probably not, but then not nice to whom? The OW? I find myself perplexed as to why I should be nice to the OW. Perhaps I spent more time reading about 'an eye for an eye' at Bible school, but no, I don't feel at all bad about not being nice to the OW. Actually, I'd love it if someday I get the cojones to hit my X upside the head with a 2 x 4 and she manages to get in the way on the second crack. But then, that's me.
I do believe you have a good point re this board being open to all...and I think that telling Pen she didn't belong here was rather strong, if that was said. (I remember someone ASKING Pen if she was having problems in her marriage and if that is why she was here...but I may just have missed someone saying that the OW doesn't belong on the marriage restoring, divorce BUSTING board. Of course, I doubt that there are many OWS who are trying to save their philandering boyfriend's marriages, do you?) Michele does say to try to understand your H..ya know, the man you are trying to reconnect with, to understand, to love...but that is the person you are bonded to , committed to, have a history with, etc. She doesn't advise becoming friends with the OW does she?
Yes, assumptions do get tiring...I agree with you 100%. And tho I love the internet, the writing of words without hearing the intonation behind them makes for lots of hurts and misunderstandings. That's why I think it best to just leave that other post to LBS who have lost their marriages and whose H's or Xs had OWs that weren't nice. But posting here or on a new thread, maybe in Forgiveness, would be uplifting to many and I hope you'll consider it (and maybe without mentioning the brouhaha on the other post.)
I'm glad you were able to forgive the OW that was involved with your H. I'm glad that it brought you comfort and healing and maybe even saved your marriage. Is your H in a form of MLC do you think? I can also understand how, since it worked for you that you would like to share it, or help Pen share it, with others. I would bet that if you went back to that post, under an assumed name, and told YOUR story and how you were able to forgive and how it helped you heal, that the women posters there would write back a very supportive response and even say that that they are working towards that. But since we will never really know the levels of betrayal and resultant trauma that the individuals here have suffered, we really can't expect that our medicine might actually work for them in the same way.
good luck to you in your marriage and keeping your family together. Please don't run away from posting...just maybe leave that particular posting alone for awhile. I enjoyed discussing with you.
Hey all... gentlemen and ladies (well, gentleman being the lonely Triple J, who seems to enjoy controversy with his girl posse)!
What an interesting dialogue! And boy is it a timely one.
I know I've mentioned more than once that I have had a MOST excellent teacher in forgiveness. A lady I've adopted as my own Denver based mother because God brought her to me and me to her. She happens to be Catholic, was separated from her H for nearly a year, the mother of 5, and one of those kids had CP and was murdered by his caretaker.
If anyone can show me the path of our Lord, it is her. And I decided to make sure I got on her train and fast.
Her first assignment to me when Mr. Wonderful left was to have me study the Lord's prayer... then she gave me books on the Beatitudes. We've shared 2 Lenten seasons together and I've felt the miracle and joy of forgiving Mr. Wonderful, his mother and anyone else who requires the effort.
I would hate to think of the person I would have become had I not chosen to live the gifts that my dear friend has given to me without asking for anything in return.
We are human and all sinners. We all require God's mercy. And he asks us to extend mercy to those who are also children of His. Especially those who we think deserve it the least. That's a tough order to fill, but there is a good reason for it.
Being a devout Catholic, I believe that Jesus Christ died for my sins. Who am I to believe that I am judge, jury and executioner of others?
Anyway, she was actually calling me to invite me to attend a 3 day seminar at her parish in 2 weeks. She asked me to consider asking Mr. Wonderful to attend. I hesitated, and she asked me to pray on it. I agreed to that request... since she knows me awfully well and hasn't steered me wrong yet.
The topic of that forum is being led by a Franciscan priest: How to turn anger into forgiveness.
I'm going to see if I can head there... I'm sure I'll learn something for myself. Or perhaps to find out that I still have work to do in this area. (I'm finding the Gospel of Luke full of wisdom and wonder and very applicable to my personal journey this year.) And if I find something worth sharing, I'll be sure to pass it along.
The one thing the nuns taught me a long time ago is that name calling is never a reflection of the person who is taunted, but of the person who is speaking those words. I was taught to super impose a mental picture of Jesus on their person and see if I was willing to say those same words? That was enough to scare the living daylights out of me...
I work very hard at setting a good example for my girls (particularly the one who speaks), and I would never want to find her taunting someone because of poison that I injected into her mind and soul.
That would bring me great pain and anguish.
So let me just be the instrument of peace? I love the Franciscans. Where there is hatred, let me sow love. Where there is injury, pardon. It is not my job to judge any of you...
So let's spread the love!
Now, it's time for me to head home and celebrate my 2 kids and thank Mr. Wonderful for being a very important part of that process. He gave me lots of blessings, and I can look back on our 15+ years together with a lot of happiness and gratitude. Without him, none of this would have been possible.
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
And, Gd, thanks for the post. You have made many excellent points. I appreciate being able to discuss things this way. You know, with clarifications and a real effort to not hurt someone's feelings.
I suppose I could tell my story, but I haven't found a way that doesn't sound preachy and (as I was told that I am) blunt! From my side, this DBing was HARD!!! It was the hardest thing I ever did. I had to be open to change and I had to be patient and I had to suppress the urge to state my opinion and instead listen....all things that I struggled with daily. Thank goodness it is easier now! I think that knowing how hard this was for me, well, I'm not one to accept excuses from others as to why they can't put the hard work into their relationships. If I could do this...anyone can!!! I was the biggest crazymaker there was! I know situations are different, and so the solutions are too. All I am saying is that the work I did was completely on my own, with no positive feedeback from my H for months. But, I knew in my heart what was right, and what kind of person I wanted to be. So, I reminded myself that I didn't need his words of affirmation. I just had a goal of going to bed each night liking ME and not having regrets over the way I acted or something I said.
Maybe it sounds easy, but I cannot stress enough that it wasn't.
So, you see, I think I will come across as thinking I am something or someone I'm not if I try to post this whole crazy story!
I guess I am blunt and direct. I don't give people room for excuses. Why? Because if someone had given me that room, I would have taken it! And I wouldn't be where I am today. (Thanks...Meredith, and Betsey)
Hmm.. I must have caught Mer's uh, cold! Yeah, that's it...that's why I'm sniffling away here.
Back to the love fest! Thanks girls, for making my life more full. Mer, when you told me today that it was 7 months since you stopped posting, I almost fell over. Where does that time go? Soon it will be a year since I "met" you both here. Wow. What a difference a year makes...
Oh, and Gd, back to you for a sec....I'm not really retreating because of the controversy. I find that I shouldn't be on the BB for long spans of time. It's just not good for me.
it *is* good to see all of the „Friends“ reunited on this thread .....the one good thing to come out of this mess. I certainly never intended to drag that controversy over here, Betsey …. my sincere apologies.
Myrrh, Triple J, wonderful to see you, and thanks for what you said. I really appreciate it.
And now, Pam, I think I’ll join you on that hiatus. All my best to each and every one of you here.
Pamela C...I hope that you will still lurk, if not post Thank you for the affirmations (my love language and something I rarely received in my marriage). I don't think you are blunt, tho i find blunt so very refreshing after years of living with a man who learned some pretty strong p/a defense mechs along the way. Yes, a person who says what she really feels is absolutely refreshing! I don't post my own thread anymore...old news really...but I sometimes creep in to read about our Bets and a few on MLC and Surviving. I do post often on Just for Fun...my new one is VACATIONS!
I think I understand how hard DB ing is...I tried my best for 2 years, forgave EVERYTHING and took blame for 100% of the breakdown of the marriage. Ironic that my husband believed every word of the 100% blame and offer of forgiving...and then told people I was crazy and controlling and manipulative and lest I forget, that I tried to poison him. I think I turned all 4 cheeks ( ) about 40 times...it was almost as if he felt:see even she admits SHE screwed up our marrige. Sometimes you get the bar and sometimes the bar gets you i guess.
I admire your hard work and the ability to DB without any affirmations from your H....I remember that the book 5 love languages says that sometimes it takes years to fillthose empty tanks. But I think your story, far from being seen as bragging, would give hope to lots of those newbies out there who are still dumbfounded at their sitch. We all like happy endings!!!
Pen...hope that you are going on hiatus from Piecing only because you too are taking care of your marriage and committments. I know the people here will miss your sage advice and help.
Bets...hope all turns out well tomorrow. Do take time to reread the post on MLC tho. I really didn't see that there was namecalling much different from sharks and fishies and ...damn it girl, I still haven't seen Finding Nemo!!!!
Take care all...I think I will stick to Just for Fun for awhile...I get into a lot less trouble that way! gd
) about 40 times...it was almost as if he felt:see even she admits SHE screwed up our marrige. Sometimes you get the bar and sometimes the bar gets you i guess.