You know the drill...

[DnJ]

Good Morning Dyn

These aren't the type of things you'd ask for if you were moving out soon.

That’s a rational surmising. Remember, W is more acting upon emotions, non-rational ideas.

On the flip side, still no effort to connect. Some small little things around the house show that I'm still in her thoughts, food she has bought or offers of a coffee or sandwich.

BD was only months ago. This takes time. W is still working through her feelings, and therefore has little bandwidth for anyone or anything else. Be patient. Her small gestures and pleasant requests/conversations are a positive, IMO.

Keep doing what you’re doing. Remain pressure-free. Very important pressure-free. No, or limited, R-talks. Plenty of time and space for her to figure her mess out.

We had mothers day here last weekend so I took the kids shopping to get her a gift. We made her breakfast in bed and I cooked a nice dinner. No grand gestures. She thanked me for the effort.

Nicely done.

I still change my mind several times per day between ending things myself and sticking it out. But I know I wouldn't end things without giving it one last chance effort, should that effort just be more DB?

DB is figuring out how you are going to live. Authentically. Sincerely. Rationally.

This daily flipping and flopping about staying or ending the marriage, ask yourself what is driving it? Seriously look. It’s likely emotionally driven. Your feelings bouncing about.

Rationally, intellectually, you have reasons for remaining married and working towards that goal.

IMHO, you are not at the point of only giving it one last chance. (Lots of avenues to explore before that point.) Sure, it may feel like it, but rationally you have time. That gift of time. Use it well. Use it wisely.

It’s only months since BD, dig for patience. Embrace limbo. There are positive steps being made by W. Give it time to see how it plays out.

You are making positive progress too. Give yourself time to figure that out. And of course, time for W to actually see, notice, and believe this new and improved Dynamiq2.0.

My IC talks a lot about trying to connect, add a bit of romance, but also being authentic, and relaxed and not taking things too personally. It all makes sense at the time but then I get out, remember where we are, what has been done and I realise that being authentic means not flirting and chasing. It's strange because I am still really physically attracted to her. But the way she is behaving towards me isn't attractive and I can't see past that. I actually see this as really healthy and a sign of growth in myself.

I’d figure your IC hears and knows much more of your situation than you share here. (That’s proper by the way. Anonymity and all.) Go slow. Be true. Be rational. Find your convictions and follow those. (Emotions flit, beliefs are much better headings. And beliefs usually have an high degree of intellectual/rational basis to them as well.)

My Ws brother who is one year younger than her, also has a hard time keeping his life on track. He has a 'grass is greener' attitude to most things. They were both very young when their parents divorced and it really seems to have left a terrible mark on both of them. I don't want that for my little ones.

My XW’s brother followed a similar path as she did. He blew up his marriage, lost custody, loads of destruction. Seems their parents/family and the dynamics thereof left similar marks upon both of them.

Divorce, a broken family, etc: I do not think, I do not believe, that that in and of itself, carves some fate in stone. One strong stable parent can/does make a difference.

Authentic, sincere, honest, open, moral, etc. Walk a righteous path, be an example with conviction, gently steer, and so on. Kids watch. Kids will mimic, and therefore learn to be from the example(s) they are exposed to.

I set down a big wake up call around infidelity and W responded. Should I do the same (gently) around avoidance since this will be just as destructive to the marriage? I'm mindful of one of Sandi's posts about treating a WW with a bit of tough love to avoid getting stuck in this exact situation.

Go slow.

The wake up call around infidelity is more a boundary. Do this, and I will do this.

Would a boundary type thing work for bringing someone out of their avoidant shell? Likely not.

Gentle and going slow with encouragement and ensuring she feels safe and non-judged may yield better results. It’s going to time and purposeful effort. The big thing, she needs to want it. Is she seeing an IC?

Remember, you are in the roll, and want the roll of husband, not IC. Do not try to fix her. Encourage whatever positive efforts she makes towards fixing herself. And only a little bit, treat it like salt, too much and it ruins the steak. Or salt in a wound, if that metaphor is more apt. Whatever, small sincere doses.

Hope you have a great Sunday.

D

[Dynamiq]

This daily flipping and flopping about staying or ending the marriage, ask yourself what is driving it? Seriously look. It’s likely emotionally driven. Your feelings bouncing about.

I think it is the intellectual side that would take me out of the marriage. The knowledge that the woman I will spend the rest of my life with would not treat me like this and that for my own mental health and self respect I should make room for something better. That I should accept this is who my wife is now and I see no desire from her to change. That I likely have more of the same to look forward to through all the coming years of menopause, family passing away and whatever else awaits us. This is just her way of dealing with things. That I might be wasting some of my best years.

On the flip side I know how difficult and damaging divorce will be for us all.

The big thing, she needs to want it. Is she seeing an IC?

No. She did for a while (although I have suspicions that she wasn't going all the times she said she was). She hasn't gone back to IC in over 3 months.

Remember, you are in the roll, and want the roll of husband, not IC. Do not try to fix her.

I have very deliberately avoided trying to fix, or openly diagnose her. I might have researched and theorised a lot to figure out and understand what is going on it but I'm not telling/teaching her anything. I can use it to dismantle some of the unhealthy patterns on my side of the M but that is all.

[Boat14]

I see some self awareness in your last sentence which is good. What were/are the unhealthy patterns on your side of the marriage?

[Dynamiq]

Hi Boat

I want to be careful with this question because I now know my default pattern is to think i'm not good enough, give more, sacrifice more - nice guy stuff. I don't want to continue with all that. Not just because it isn't attractive, it also wasn't helping my happiness and self-esteem.

W said at BD she can't fault me. I think I'm too squeaky clean - trying too hard to be perfect but at the same time lost sight of my purpose, vision, mission. Got lost in the weeds of day to day parenting, cleaning the house etc. W needs help with all that too - I know this - but not at the expense of mission, drive and purpose. I got a bit lost in 'fixing' W's stress and gaining her approval.

We became a bit fused, enmeshed, however you want to say it. Not enough polarity. I need to get my mojo back and I have to a large extent.

I got myself into a scarcity mindset I think. Which was partly good - I'm disciplined with money and treats, healthy food, exercise and stuff. I'm more stoic, W is more hedonistic. So while I can find joy in the smaller everyday moments, having a good routine, being present with the kids and stuff, W needs more novelty, romance and distraction (probably a lot of women are like this). I'm tapping into my abundance mindset more and more.

A big thing for W is criticism, she doesn't handle it well and even takes normal feedback or observations as personal criticism sometimes. I've known this for a long time (without realising it was closely related to avoidants) and it led me to bite my tongue so many times (but with a bit of resentment building up in me). I no longer criticise at all - just praise and gratitude or STFU. Reading Way of the Superior Man has helped me change my mindset on this.

I know W has complained to in-laws more than she did to me. Maybe I should get them to make a list of all complaints they heard and see if there is anything else there that realistically needs changing?

I also think there is an element of overproviding. I always thought this was me being a good dad and husband but perhaps with W leaning towards avoidant, me providing things can be seen as pressure. Like she's indebted to me, relies on me or I'm expecting her to repay it with love. It's a threat to her independence.

Also it's maybe a bit of golden cage syndrome, not that we are really wealthy but we probably have a higher quality of life than W grew up with and a lot of that is down to me. Example - when she realised I paid the full yearly amount for the holiday home she looked at me like I took a dump on the doorstep, not like I had done something good and that should be appreciated. I wasn't asking for appreciation - I was proud to do this for my family, but some appreciation would be nice.

I'm more spontaneous. W likes things to be planned. I wasn't planning things in advance enough, getting the babysitters organised, taking care of all the little details. No date nights now so I don't know how to rectify this - perhaps more elaborate and planned family days out?

All this is probably good news - it means I can be a bit more selfish. A bit more free. As long as I am more targetted and deliberate with the quality time I do spend in my relationships, I just need to focus more GALing outside the R. Be more the main character in my own life!

I really don't want to get caught up in taking all the fault. I see a lot online of this attitude that if the H cheats he a POS, if the W cheats it must be because H is a POS. I don't buy it. BUT I do like to have agency and responsibility for my own life and my destiny in my own hands.

Any thoughts?

[Valeska19]

Any thoughts?

I'm not sure if you are asking just Boat but I'm going to chime in here with some heavy 2x4s. My guess is you will continue to dodge my comments. Based on your words - you seem to see women as less than. You certainly have assigned assumptions, roles, and responsibilities to them. No?

Got lost in the weeds of day to day parenting, cleaning the house etc. W needs help with all that too - I know this - but not at the expense of mission, drive and purpose. I got a bit lost in 'fixing' W's stress and gaining her approval.

There it is again... the word "help" in regards to parenting and cleaning of the house. You both work. This is a responsibility you SHARE. It's also not her place to take on more of the load so you can make sure you don't lose your purpose and drive. You can certainly ask for her support but you need to figure out the balance without putting MORE on her.

The sooner you can cut the word "help"- the better. It could drastically effect your mindset. How? It takes responsibility and blame from your wife and puts you in charge of your own story.

"I need to figure out how to raise my children and still have a purpose outside of them".

See how that's not about your wife at all??

I got myself into a scarcity mindset I think. Which was partly good - I'm disciplined with money and treats, healthy food, exercise and stuff. I'm more stoic, W is more hedonistic. So while I can find joy in the smaller everyday moments, having a good routine, being present with the kids and stuff, W needs more novelty, romance and distraction (probably a lot of women are like this). I'm tapping into my abundance mindset more and more.

"Alot of women are probably like this". Assumption. Let's replace that with education. People are attracted to their opposites. Doesn't matter the gender or if its a homo or hetero relationship. We look for things that we don't possess. It's rare that you will find two frugal people in a relationship. Most of the time you have the squirrel and the spender. The spender helps the squirrel splurge. The squirrel helps the spender save. It's a balance but both parties are attracted to what they wish they could be more of.

Also - have you read the 5 love languages? Not all women like gifts. And seriously WTH with the saying that women like distractions. Um - have you seen the crisis men are having with video games? Any one can be victim to spending too much time unfocused and avoidant from their lives.

So the real questions are: How much did you participate in balancing out and embracing those differences between you two? And what is your wife's love language and have you been loving her in the way that fills her cup?

A big thing for W is criticism, she doesn't handle it well and even takes normal feedback or observations as personal criticism sometimes. I've known this for a long time (without realising it was closely related to avoidants) and it led me to bite my tongue so many times (but with a bit of resentment building up in me). I no longer criticise at all - just praise and gratitude or STFU. Reading Way of the Superior Man has helped me change my mindset on this.

I'm not surprised that your wife doesn't like your criticism. Especially when you have expressed to us that you think your way is better and more efficient. I'm sure that comes across in your critique.

Not liking criticism doesn't make someone avoidant. It makes her human. Have you heard of the Gottman's 4 Horsemen? Criticism is on the list.

Perhaps the work is on figuring out why you build resentment whenever you don't get to tell your wife what she is doing wrong? Or when she doesn't do it YOUR way.

I know W has complained to in-laws more than she did to me. Maybe I should get them to make a list of all complaints they heard and see if there is anything else there that realistically needs changing?.

Ugh... this is a lazy response. And also a big problem because it means you aren't spending the time being in tune with your wife. Listening to her verbal and non verbal cues.

I really don't want to get caught up in taking all the fault. I see a lot online of this attitude that if the H cheats he a POS, if the W cheats it must be because H is a POS. I don't buy it. BUT I do like to have agency and responsibility for my own life and my destiny in my own hands.

Um. Truth bomb. You haven't really taken any fault. Your stance has been and continues to be "I'm too much of a nice guy - that's my problem"

Personally - I don't see that. Alot of nice guys who have come to this board don't actually know they are one. They think they are just being super loving and kind and then we have to reel them back in. They are pushovers.

You seem nice and then when you don't get the reaction you want - you get upset.

Also it's maybe a bit of golden cage syndrome, not that we are really wealthy but we probably have a higher quality of life than W grew up with and a lot of that is down to me. Example - when she realised I paid the full yearly amount for the holiday home she looked at me like I took a dump on the doorstep, not like I had done something good and that should be appreciated. I wasn't asking for appreciation - I was proud to do this for my family, but some appreciation would be nice.

Look... I had a very successful career. I made most of the money. I credit alot of that - to my partner. She encouraged me to take career chances. Let me know it was going to be okay and not to worry. She picked up around the house extra when I had to put in long hours for that promotion. She used to drive me to work when I was tired. It was a TEAM effort.

So either - you are saying your wife wasn't a teammate - or you haven't learn to appreciate what she truly brings to the table.

Also stop trying to be nice if you are looking for appreciate. That's called manipulation.

Finally and this was the part I was going to put on Grok's page to his response.

Affairs are often symptoms of the breakdown of a marriage. There is a disconnect created and rather than address it - it grows and then people look outside of the marriage what they should have been getting inside of it. Sometimes - people look for things that their spouse, no matter hard they try, can't fulfill. Other times - the spouse totally can provide that need but chooses not to because of their own reasons and trauma.

Whatever the reason - it's clearly not a healthy coping mechanism and I don't agree it should ever be an acceptable avenue to take.

However life is not black and white - and so both can exist. It can be a wrong choice - and it can be understood the reasoning behind it. People think acceptance is saying it's okay. Not true - but denying their reason isn't gonna help either.

Since this is a pro-marriage site - your job is to see what's true in regards to your own marriage and then do your best to clean your side of the fence.

I'm just not seeing that from you Dyna. Perhaps it's in the way you express yourself. Perhaps it's the words you use.

But all I'm getting from you is anger, a need to be right, and that your biggest problem is that you are "too good". None of this will help save your marriage. None of this will help save you.

You need to dig deeper.

[Dynamiq]

Hi Val, good to hear from you again.

I'll drop the word 'help'.

I won't answer everything. As usual, your post has a lot to be digested and thought about.

I guess this is my place to vent. I know it seems a bit negative sometimes. I defend W and talk her up to people we know but as you can see, I still have some resentment that is hard to drop, it comes out here where it's anonymous.

The form factor here doesn't really allow for the full picture either. It's a shame we can't sit and talk for a couple of hours but that's what IC is for. Maybe I should take longer over my posts but time is short these days, and because of that I appreciate you and others posting back.

I've read 5LL, it was one of the first books I got after BD. I think wifes LLs are gifts actually, she was always great at leaving little gifts and notes and cards. Words of affirmation too - this is one I could do better on, and so much comes down to the way things are said as well. I'll read it again now I'm in a different place emotionally.

I can't really sit down with W at the moment and go through the LL questionnaire though - not very DB.

I know not all women are the same. My wife is a great woman which is why i married her. There are lots of other women with very different personalities who i wouldnt be attracted to. Myself and W took personality tests for fun once and we came up exactly opposite. This actually worried W but I liked the differences. Opposites attract like you say. But there are differences, on average, between men and women. A lot of what I read about these can be applied to my sitch. I take what I think applies and disregard what doesn't.

Also stop trying to be nice if you are looking for appreciate. That's called manipulation

This. The covert contract. At the heart of nice guy syndrome. And a difficult habit to drop - it comes from learned childhood patterns. IF I do this THEN I'll get the love I seek. It leads one to give more of oneself away over the course of a relationship thinking you'll eventually get the love youre missing. I've been guilty of this.

The talk of mission, purpose. That is how to get away from the manipulation. Fill your own cup, build your own life, love yourself then you have more love to give to others amd you dont need as much coming back. I'm seeing this work for me. This is a huge part of the reason I can drop the criticism, drop the resentment (im getting there - an affair builds some resentment that is hard to drop). I'm still parenting as much, I'm still doing chores as much but I'm not letting them be an excuse not to live those other parts of my life.

I'm working under the advice that now is not the time for R talks or gifts or nice words. Now is the time to be the most attractive, strong, confident version of me. Someone you wouldn't leave. This is why I'm talking more about mission, purpose and mojo. If there comes a time for reconciliation then you'll likely find me on here talking about LLs etc.

I dont think I'm lazy or that im not looking inward. I've read a lot. This site, books, audio books, I'm taking the stuff that resonates the most. I think it is DB. Maybe just not what you are expecting?

I get what you are asking me to do. I'm not saying I've found all the answers yet but I am looking inward. I am levelling up. Am I more me-focused than W-focused at the moment? Yes I'd have to admit that.

[Dynamiq]

I hope you all had a great Easter.

I had lots of fun, a couple of days at holiday home with W, kids and in-laws. I organised an easter egg hunt at a friends party for a group of kids and had a great time. The host of the party said to me in reference to W that I have 'the patience of Job'. I didn't react or respond or ask her to elaborate but I've been thinking about that comment a lot. I assumed not much of our sitch was common knowledge outside us and in-laws but perhaps the in-laws have talked to others or maybe it's just obvious that we aren't acting the way we normally did.

I don't feel very patient, as you can tell from my posts, even if I act as if I am.

I got the kids an easter egg to give to W, a few days later they reciprocated with something that W had bought for them to give. This was a nice moment but I'll highlight it because something that I have changed is communication through the kids. So what I used to say for example, "Kids, tell mummy thank you for that lovely dinner." Now I just directly thank her for the lovely dinner. An easy habit to fall into when you spend so much time around the children and you are trying to teach them how to behave. Instead now I aim to just show by example.

But is this more of the same now? I can't just buy my wife a gift? I get it. Too much pressure...

My guess is you will continue to dodge my comments.

I didn't think I was Val. I look forward to your comments. I thought about nothing else for two days after your last post. I've also been thinking a lot about how I post on here and it hasn't been representative of the positive way I live my life.

I thought a lot about the stages of grief. Wondering what depression what look like. I've caught myself on social media a lot over the last few weeks. Not good. Scrolling instead of living. A lot of the content the algorithms are sending me at the moment isn't good for a positive mindset either. I need to do better.

It's really hard being a mum and working. We talked about the possibility of her taking time off work to be a SAHM but she didn't want that and we went the childcare route but the stress of it all was probably the trigger for her crisis. Several times I pushed my wife to take more downtime but she puts too much pressure on herself, sees it as failure or selfish. Her avoidant tendencies getting the better of her. Not letting her regulate when she needs to and then stress builds up until one day it has to be released. Burnout. Difficult to see it with my wife because she always puts on such a strong facade. As much as I do, it won't be enough because I think she see's it a pressure for her to do more rather than an opportunity for her to relax. Competition rather than teamwork. This is where I need to communicate more and better.

When I talk about drive and purpose, its not about going and doing my own thing, it's about improving our home and creating a beautiful, functional environment for my family to live in. Improving our lives. With the young kids I've been spending much more time parenting and doing chores which I don't mind at all. But I have been guilty of using it as an excuse to procrastinate on other things I'd like to do. Then when I'm talking about plans with friends or family and they say "of course you don't have time at the moment" then W hears this and sees it as pressure. At least this is what I think.

Meanwhile I was being a fixer not being her supporter, cheerleader etc.

W never communicates any of this. It's just what I can figure out. I've had to retrace and piece it all together. There's more but I don't have time now.

Val, I agree with your comments on affairs. It's not how it should be but it is how it is. I know because I've lived it.

I'll distill your nuance into more black and white language. If your spouse/partner isn't happy with their life then they might have an affair. They might have other coping mechanisms but affairs seem to be a pretty common one. Good. So, now what to do about it?

[Dynamiq]

Perhaps the work is on figuring out why you build resentment whenever you don't get to tell your wife what she is doing wrong? Or when she doesn't do it YOUR way.

I forgot to address this one. It wasnt resentment about not being able to criticise. It was resentment about not feeling able to have conversations about honestly fairly benign household issues because I knew it would be received as a personal attack. I didn't have the communication skills to bring these things up in the right way so i didnt and we rarely ever fought. Really some healthy conflict would have been good for us but it wasnt within our skill set. I see this in so many threads here where the couple would rarely fight until it hits the fan.

[Dynamiq]

Perhaps the work is on figuring out why you build resentment whenever you don't get to tell your wife what she is doing wrong? Or when she doesn't do it YOUR way.

I forgot to address this one. It wasnt resentment about not being able to criticise. It was resentment about not feeling able to have conversations about honestly fairly benign household issues because I knew it would be received as a personal attack. I didn't have the communication skills to bring these things up in the right way so i didnt and we rarely ever fought. Really some healthy conflict would have been good for us but it wasnt within our skill set. I see this in so many threads here where the couple would rarely fight until it hits the fan.

[Dynamiq]

Perhaps the work is on figuring out why you build resentment whenever you don't get to tell your wife what she is doing wrong? Or when she doesn't do it YOUR way.

I forgot to address this one. It wasnt resentment about not being able to criticise. It was resentment about not feeling able to have conversations about honestly fairly benign household issues because I knew it would be received as a personal attack. I didn't have the communication skills to bring these things up in the right way so i didnt and we rarely ever fought. Really some healthy conflict would have been good for us but it wasnt within our skill set. I see this in so many threads here where the couple would rarely fight until it hits the fan.