I am 42M, my wife is 38F. Typical enough situation from what I have read, and I have read a lot.
TLDR: Possible MLC? Emotional Affair and now in Limbo.
3 young kids 6 years and under. Married 8 years. Together 14. My first real understanding that something was wrong came around 8 months ago was when emotional distance, avoidance, reduced intimacy. At the same time she was spending more time away from home partying, work. Anytime i tried to start a conversation there would be an excuse. She complained of stress, and being too busy. I've always been helpful at home so I started doing so much that there was nothing left for her to do at home and it became clear her excuses weren't genuine.
It got to the point I confronted her and asked was she not lonely and did she not want to be with me. She said she didn't know. I had to travel for work and came back a week later and got the BD -'I never loved you' etc - 'I want to buy a house and move out' - but at the same time couldn't fault me and said I was a great father. At that time I had already read one or two articles about walk away wife and midlife crisis so I didn't react as badly as most people would (although I was expecting ILYBNILWY - so a bit of a shock with what I actually got). I had one or two conversations of pleading, bargaining, questioning but probably not as much as most and then I started giving her space. Luckily, at the same time I was working on NMMNG and this really helped my mood, I got busy at the gym, and with jobs at home I had procrastinated on, reading more, bought new clothes. All while giving her space.
I opened up on a few things that I was learning about myself and working on (I was never very emotional or vulnerable) as the conversations came up and she seemed curious. She even started opening up about herself, childhood issues (of course) and said she was going to start IC.
2 months after BD I was suspecting an affair (she denied it at BD). I snooped and found she had been texting a guy she used to work with. Texts were deleted so I don't know what was sent (thankfully I think). I waited a week until I calmed down. I confronted to see if she would admit it but she didn't, I said I knew and handed her a letter (a 2x4 you might say) saying we would have to seperate. She then went to my inlaws and told them but came back and asked for time. She cant afford to buy a house. A day or two later she said she ended the affair (she said) and asked for time and a few more counselling sessions.
Separate beds since then.
This is about 2 -3 months ago. She seemed to go through a bit of a depression (withdrawal?) and still avoiding talking to me about relationship. I don't bring it up much. I am in a great mood most days, having fun with the kids. Getting more of my life back. I gave up a lot to help with the young kids. No overt signs of the affair anymore. I guess i made a mistake not bargaining for phone access.
Since she stayed at home I have been trying to be a good husband but without putting pressure on. Including her in everything family related. Took her out for an anniversary dinner (kept it light). Still doing family things together. Wrote her a letter on anniversay trying her lift her mood and make her feel appreciated and reiterated that I know I have to change to and I want to talk.
In-laws are pro M. They knew she had been acting angry and strange. They talk to me. She doesn't talk much to them or anyone at the moment. I've seen improvements in her mood but still no R talk, no remorse, no apologies. She does things for me around the house that she doesn't have to (breadcrumbs?) Bought me some christmas gifts (inexpensive but thoughtful).
2 weeks ago she said she'd write me a letter. Still haven't seen it.
She did say she was trying to be open minded about MC but didn't want to give me 'false hope'. I brushed it off because I want more enthusiasm than that. She is still going on a few nights out with girl friends (and staying away over night) but time away from house isn't as much as it was.
So I am at a bit of a decision point.
Do I start to draw boundaries around her acting less like a single woman and more like a wife?
(could be important for my NMMNG journey to get more assertive and dominant BUT she is an avoidant and has always been very independent and stubborn).
Do i wait it out and keep doing what I'm doing and she'll eventually open up?
I would continue as you have been doing. Try being a friend, a good listener and not put pressure on her. She is sitting on the fence and until she decides what she wants to do, she will be there. The less pressure you put on her, the better.
I wouldn't rush MC. If you think you need to see a counselor, by all means do so. However, if you push her to see a MC, she will take what the counselor has to say and only hear what she wants to hear and then she will probably say "see, it's not going to work for us".
For now, continue as you have been. The less stress you put on her, the better.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Just remember that Boundaries are for you -not her- if that makes sense?
You can only control your actions and reactions. You have no control over what she does and doesn't do.
for instance, one boundary I set was that I refused to be "talked down" to. When WW was getting snippy and mean, I'd tell her that I wasn't going to tolerate being spoken to that way and then I'd remove myself from the situation if it continued.
They make sense. She doesn't say much of anything but it has mostly been respectful lately. When I called her up on snapping at me once she turned polite pretty quickly.
Is she a little scared of me at this stage? I probably hold more of the 'balance of power' if there is such a thing. I haven't told anyone about her affair yet and I think she's quite worried about her image to friends and family. Financially I provide a lot more, although she does work as well.
She probably feels trapped, which is the thing that delays me on setting too many boundaries on what she should and shouldn't do. I don't think she is going anywhere too soon...
I just don't like the limbo.
I'm a bit impatient because I can see how it's hurting the kids. As much as I'm enjoying my time with them and having fun, it feels like there is a bit of a cloud hanging over us some days and they aren't seeing their parents behave as a loving couple should.
I suppose the point is that I was thinking of telling her what actions will help me be patient and help show me she's serious about rebuilding trust and what actions won't. But how to balance this against being controlling?
I'm not the perfect husband. If I was we wouldn't be here. But I do feel that I am the prize in this situation.
I've done a lot of work on cleaning up my side of the street. The next challenge is to prove I can listen without criticising, judging or fixing. If only she would open up....
So is it back to the 37 rules? More space? More detachment? More GAL? More good husbandly leadership? Let time do it's thing?
She probably feels trapped, which is the thing that delays me on setting too many boundaries on what she should and shouldn't do. I don't think she is going anywhere too soon...
again, not boundaries for HER, they're for YOU. if you try to set boundaries around her behavior, of course she'll feel trapped... because she is trapped by these boundaries you've put on/around her.
Yeah, Limbo really, really [censored]. As men we always want to "fix" things. The reality is this didn't happen overnight, and we can't "fix" it overnight.
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Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
Do I start to draw boundaries around her acting less like a single woman and more like a wife?
Do i wait it out and keep doing what I'm doing and she'll eventually open up?
Do I invite her to MC or is it too soon?
So is it back to the 37 rules? More space? More detachment? More GAL? More good husbandly leadership? Let time do its thing?
I just don't like the limbo.
She probably feels trapped, which is the thing that delays me on setting too many boundaries on what she should and shouldn't do. I don't think she is going anywhere too soon...
Breathe. Just breathe.
This is a marathon, not a sprint.
DBing is all quite counterintuitive, and it will feel wrong. At first, until you get the hang of it.
As job said, continue as you are. Listen to W, when she wishes to converse.
Give W plenty of time and space. And no pressure. The more you push, the faster she will head out the door.
There is no magic bullet here. She is presently sitting on the fence. Let her. Your interference, or trying to control, will likely push her off it. You need her to come back on to your side from her desire to. From her choice to.
Time and space.
As to some specific advice:
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
So I am at a bit of a decision point.
I know it feels like it. Realize you aren’t. And decisions made based upon feelings most often lead to regrets.
Doing nothing is doing something. Standing still is still standing.
You keep move forward. In your life. Focusing on you and your three kids.
Find detachment. This is the single best thing you can do for your emotional and mental health.
Do continue to invite W to family events. If she attends, or if she chooses not to, matters not. You and the kids go. Let W walk her path.
W needs to feel the loss before she will likely change direction or hop off that fence. As in, giving her time and space, and be pressure-free, in time she will ponder: “hmmm, Dyn hasn’t been bothering me for quite a while, yet I still feel unhappy and confused. Perhaps he isn’t the cause.” Then, with some luck, she will start to look inward. Less blaming you and more looking for actual causes/reasons.
You need to not get dragged into fights and bickering. Need to minimize the target she’d already painted upon you. Yet, do not walk on eggshells. Which brings:
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
Do I start to draw boundaries around her acting less like a single woman and more like a wife?
Like Mowgli said, boundaries are for you.
Boundaries are not punishment. Are not to fix the other person.
Boundaries are for your mental and emotional health. They are what you will do when W is disrespectful. As an example, “W, when you swear at me it is disrespectful, and I will leave the room.”
Boundaries are your action. W can do whatever she chooses.
And, do not make boundaries all Willy-nilly. Boundaries and their enforcement needs to be rock-solid. (Might be a good idea to run a boundary by the folks here before enacting it.)
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
Do i wait it out and keep doing what I'm doing and she'll eventually open up?
It’s not waiting around. You focus on what you can control. That’s you. Your thoughts, actions, and reactions.
You focus on you and the kids. You live and love your life.
Don’t sit pinning away waiting for her. Don’t sit upon the shelf. That doesn’t mean dating, or anything like that; keep your vows, and live your life. Be the lighthouse. (There is a really good Lighthouse post in the welcome post to you. Give it a solid read.)
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
Do I invite her to MC or is it too soon?
No MC. Too much pressure. She is nowhere ready to consider relationship stuff. In fact, and this is difficult, no relationship talks. For a good long while.
You control you. Get you side of the street in order. See a IC. Heal thyself.
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
So is it back to the 37 rules? More space? More detachment? More GAL? More good husbandly leadership? Let time do its thing?
It’s back to you. Focus on you. Let go. Less is more.
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
I just don't like the limbo.
I get it.
You are just starting out. Work on detachment. Work on letting go.
People feel like they have to do something, enact something, make some decisions. You don’t. And likely shouldn’t.
It is difficult to let go expectations. However, dial your expectations to zero. Unmet expectations lead to resentments. And resentments are poison to a relationship.
Make peace with your limbo. Choose it.
I hope this helps and I look forward to conversing with you.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
I get it. Some of the decisions I made I've later regretted but not many. They came from the heart.
I guess I've been reading and obsessing too much. I see a lot of conflicting advice and it is hard to navigate through sometimes. Sandi's tips for dealing with a WW don't quite sit with the give space and time.
But I am starting to piece together all the info into a fairly good understanding of what's going on. I just don't know how much that helps. She's going to do whatever she wants to do.
It just doesn't feel right having someone who has hurt me so much, continuing to stay and take advantage of everything I provide. Safety, security, outward look of a happy family. I do know she is hurting too and feels like a failure but if we get through this I want some level of self respect.
Still haven't fully gone through my anger stage as you can see.
Ok I'll listen to the wiser heads than me on here. Space, time, work on myself.
Welcome to a great community, sorry you find yourself here. Like many on the boards I was in a situation like yours not that long ago and it was both the worst and best thing to ever happen to me. Frankly when I read the opening lines of your first post that referenced W partying I said out loud, "This could be my story".
There are a lot of very helpful posts here and it sounds like you've been reading. Keep it up. Be sure to focus on yourself, your actions, and your behaviors. Giving headspace to what your W did/may have done/could be doing is a recipe for more of the same bad behavior that lead you here. Let her go.
Be prepared for lots of ups and downs - good days, then bad weeks, then one great hour, etc. Remind yourself that this is part of the growth process you're living through, but always revert to valued actions. DO, don't THINK or SAY.
Once you have clarity on what you want in your life and what standard you expect from those you invite into your life, the answers to all of the questions you're grappling with will present themselves. Be patient, be persistent, and above all, don't lose hope that you will have the life you want. That's rule number 1.
I guess I've been reading and obsessing too much. I see a lot of conflicting advice and it is hard to navigate through sometimes. Sandi's tips for dealing with a WW don't quite sit with the give space and time.
I think you may be talking about the balance of setting boundaries on wayward behavior but time and space for the WAS to work through everything. I set one of - it is not OK to be here in my home while actively romancing OM.
Why time and space? There are other distilled versions of this here but maybe this quote will help. Follow the link and read the whole thing:
Originally Posted by Accuray
You are correct that your W is sad and angry. She's angry at you, and she's angry at herself. ... If they are in that state of mind, can you see why pursuing them or having relationship talks is just totally hopeless? ... Everything you do right now is going to make her either more resentful, or less resentful. ... UNTIL she goes through both of those processes, she will not see you as anything other than she believes you to be based on her prior training. ... THAT is the beginning of your opportunity to turn things around, but you CANNOT control how long it will take her to process her anger and resentment, and you CANNOT accelerate it.
Buckle your seatbelt, its a marathon and you have to be patient and surrender to the fact that this relationship is NOT something you can control right now. ...
But I am starting to piece together all the info into a fairly good understanding of what's going on. I just don't know how much that helps.
It is useful to define what you mean. Help for what? specifically
It does help you grasp this truth =>
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
She's going to do whatever she wants to do.
Which means? .....
Related wisdom distilled here
- You work on you
- nothing that you can say or do to change this, yet everything that you say or do will change this
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
It just doesn't feel right having someone who has hurt me so much, continuing to stay and take advantage of everything I provide. Safety, security, outward look of a happy family. I do know she is hurting too and feels like a failure but if we get through this I want some level of self respect.
No, it isn't just or fair
So What?
What is your goal? What if to reach it requires GRACE? Unearned favor, a gift freely given, without any merit or deserving on the part of the recipient.
MWD talks about this a good bit. In her books/articles.
g
H:55 XW:50 D19, D18, S13 ILYBINILWY 3/23 DB1 4/23, rescinded 5/23, DB2 6/23 ("I can't do this, I Love HIM") Legal Mediation 1-5 & W leaves 8/23 – 3/24 Settlement 5/24, Court 9/11/24 <-, D 9/16/24
I was tired and unwell yesterday, which also led to me feeling quite sad and emotional. That's not like the old me. I just sat with it, felt it and was glad that I can feel. I saw somebody write that a period of feeling down usually comes before the next wave of detachment and I think that is true for me as well.
Continuing to invest in myself for the foreseeable. That's my plan.
IC for me next week. I'm proud of my changes so far but I feel my trajectory might be plateauing a bit so I want to find what I need to keep making progress.
I saw the info about setting goals and I think I initially set myself too many. I was trying everything, researching everything, but not finding peace. The advice I have been given here is helping me understand I need to accept where I am find peace with it and be a bit more deliberate and purposeful now.
My work suffered a bit due to lack of sleep and being distracted but I spoke to my boss, who is understanding and supportive, and gave him a heads up as to some of what was going on. My performance wasn't so bad that he noticed but it was good to give a heads up and now I am getting back on track.
I'm sure everyone will agree that BD puts you in a spin and for me I realised I was at such a lack of understanding about the situation.
I was reading everything; is it MLC? is it limerance? is it an affair? is it avoidant/anxious attachment? is it depression? is it stress? is it unmet needs? Love languages? Our spouse can't (or won't) give us coherent answers, and we should know that questions are pressure so we dont ask anyway.
Turns out it's all of these factors playing into it and possibly more (hormones?). This understanding is a bit of a comfort and will possibly help in the final R or next relationship but right now concentrating on me has brought the most benefit.
I am grateful that my situation seems to be on the 'milder' side compared to some I've read (so far - who knows what's in store). I'm grateful my wife is at home being a great mother and being an 'ok' wife. There are marriages that probably exist like this for years, it is just not what I want to accept.
There have been times when I caught myself laughing at the ridiculousness of it all. I have been positive almost throughout and I think that will help me continue.
Just to log some things that might be useful info to some others coming along later...
Bomb drop and other affair fog talk I heard: I never loved you Wish I didn't feel this way Fell out of love 2 years ago W saying she only got married because of pressure from her mum and my mum. W Saying I didn't want to marry and she forced me into it. W didnt feel love in my wedding speech W never saw herself staying in our house forever. Some talk about an ex from years ago that was 'proper love ' I think because he dumped W and therefore she had to chase him.
Later withdrawal talk: Doesn't see a future in our relationship Feels at a crossroads Doesn't want MC because she doesn't want to be told what to do.
It is interesting how these folks do seem to follow and speak a similar script.
W is walking her path and you need to walk your’s. Keep moving forward, and continue to make positive changes. Be kind and cordial, listen when she wants to share, minimal pressure, and such. You cannot control her or her path, yet you can influence it. Be a lighthouse.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
You mentioned that you took over everything to alleviate stress. Perhaps that was part of the problem.
Men like to believe that women like to be taken care of? This is false. Women like to feel emotionally safe. This helps them feel like they can grow in the independence, in their needs and wants in life. It helps them take risks and believe in themselves.
The problem is that when you take away a person's opportunity to handle something for a LONG period of time... it' starts to dig away at these things. The person being taken care of starts to believe they are unable to do it on their own. Unable to handle stress, or conflict, or grow. They become stagnant. And you, the H, are no longer helping her. You are hurting her... and she begins to distance herself from that hurt.
So besides that point, how else did you behave as a H? Where would you consider yourself "falling short"?
M(f): 40 D'ed: 8/12
Show empathy when there's pain. Show grace when warranted. Kindness in the midst of anger. Faith in the face of fear.
You mentioned that you took over everything to alleviate stress. Perhaps that was part of the problem.
Men like to believe that women like to be taken care of? This is false. Women like to feel emotionally safe. This helps them feel like they can grow in the independence, in their needs and wants in life. It helps them take risks and believe in themselves.
The problem is that when you take away a person's opportunity to handle something for a LONG period of time... it' starts to dig away at these things. The person being taken care of starts to believe they are unable to do it on their own. Unable to handle stress, or conflict, or grow. They become stagnant. And you, the H, are no longer helping her. You are hurting her... and she begins to distance herself from that hurt.
So besides that point, how else did you behave as a H? Where would you consider yourself "falling short"?
Hi Valeska
This is what I have been coming to terms with the last while. It gets to the point where I'm thinking I do so much, I provide so much, why is it never enough?
Well maybe it's too much.
I got too involved with the parenting, housework and possibly a bit controlling. W and I both work so I have to help out but I guess there is a balance to be found that I stepped over. Also trying to 'fix' the way she does things sometimes. It's just my way of trying to make things easier if I see something that is causing extra work for no reason or if I think of a better way. My wife is very sensitive to criticism, even things that aren't meant as criticism will be taken as criticism so a lot of times I'll bite my tongue (and get resentful) when I see her causing herself extra work but hey I just need to learn to let her be more.
She isn't good at asking for help so I just do some stuff that needs done but when we are both in the house all the time, doing the same stuff, the masculine feminine polarity disappears.
It's the trap of the modern 50/50 equal relationship. Often the guy is damned if you help out and damned if you don't. Not that there weren't ever affairs when women stayed home and the guy worked. There have always been affairs. So I'm not beating myself up about it.
I gave up too much of myself to be a 'good' dad and husband, lost the spark, lost my sense of purpose and she maybe also lost her sense of purpose as well.
I'm trying to just relax and GAL now.
Not much opportunity to create emotional safety at the moment but I'm ready to listen if she opens up.
Also in general terms it got to a point where I wasn't romantic enough, wasn't fun enough, wasn't flirting enough, wasn't emotionally available enough. All what I'm working on now...
So difficult to see a way back to flirting and romance though. I'm closer to packing her bags than I am to winking or teasing.
Maybe I just need to start flirting with life instead...
I got too involved with the parenting, housework and possibly a bit controlling. W and I both work so I have to help out but I guess there is a balance to be found that I stepped over. Also trying to 'fix' the way she does things sometimes. It's just my way of trying to make things easier if I see something that is causing extra work for no reason or if I think of a better way. My wife is very sensitive to criticism, even things that aren't meant as criticism will be taken as criticism so a lot of times I'll bite my tongue (and get resentful) when I see her causing herself extra work but hey I just need to learn to let her be more.Also in general terms it got to a point where I wasn't romantic enough, wasn't fun enough, wasn't flirting enough, wasn't emotionally available enough. All what I'm working on now...
I'm sure you didn't mean it quite this way but wording so very much influences our thought. The fact that you are "helping" parenting or housework is not the best way to look at it. You are both young and the old dynamic of wife stays at home and takes care of kids whilst the man works is hardly ever the case. Not just financially but sometimes i think alot of women don't really see that "housemom" role as being a positive experience... society definitely doesn't pitch it that way.
You are never helping w/ the children. They are yours therefore your responsibility.
So let's focus on the controlling part? Were you or weren't you? In what way might you feel like you were?
Control is very destructive to a marriage... so if there is validity there - the 180 for you would be to relinquish as much as possible back to her. This is not in the form of her walking all over you - it is surrendering to her decisions and letting them play out.
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
So difficult to see a way back to flirting and romance though. I'm closer to packing her bags than I am to winking or teasing.
Maybe I just need to start flirting with life instead...
No one is saying to flirt and tease. It was suggested to be pleasant, compassionate, and kind. Those actions don't require a romantic connection.
I understand you are hurting - but if you are here to save your marriage - you have to be honest with yourself first (and us - so we an help you) on how you fell short. YOU are the one that's here so tell us about you.
M(f): 40 D'ed: 8/12
Show empathy when there's pain. Show grace when warranted. Kindness in the midst of anger. Faith in the face of fear.
Don't get me wrong, I love spending time with the kids and I don't mind doing chores at home. I also get to do a lot of more 'traditional manly stuff' outside of home and at work so I don't feel like I'm not a man. Maybe I seemed like I was keeping the finances under control but honestly my wife isn't great at saving or planning for the future and I don't feel sorry for that. Since I got a promotion and working on nmmng I'm takin a slightly more abundance mindset now.
Controlling is a bit strong for what I mean but I suppose having to be right, having to fix things, having to find the optimal way of doing things, it probably puts a bit of pressure on W that doesn't need to be there. Instead just give her praise for the great job she was doing.
I think I was trying to do too much sometimes, not taking enough time to have fun, show gratitude, not enough novelty and romance. Not enough planning fun things to do together.
With the stress and chaos of having kids, I think it got a bit like groundhog day for a while. Same stuff all the time. Later we weren't spending enough time together either.
Really I need to hear more from my wife about what her needs are. I don't think she is even aware of her needs all the time and doesn't state them too often.
It wasn't a bad marriage, not toxic or abusive, nothing that couldn't be fixed. Just better, more open, honest communication and protecting couple time more would really make a big difference I think. Realising we're on the same team.
Don't get me wrong, I love spending time with the kids and I don't mind doing chores at home. I also get to do a lot of more 'traditional manly stuff' outside of home and at work so I don't feel like I'm not a man. Maybe I seemed like I was keeping the finances under control but honestly my wife isn't great at saving or planning for the future and I don't feel sorry for that. Since I got a promotion and working on nmmng I'm takin a slightly more abundance mindset now.
Controlling is a bit strong for what I mean but I suppose having to be right, having to fix things, having to find the optimal way of doing things, it probably puts a bit of pressure on W that doesn't need to be there. Instead just give her praise for the great job she was doing.
I think I was trying to do too much sometimes, not taking enough time to have fun, show gratitude, not enough novelty and romance. Not enough planning fun things to do together.
With the stress and chaos of having kids, I think it got a bit like groundhog day for a while. Same stuff all the time. Later we weren't spending enough time together either.
Really I need to hear more from my wife about what her needs are. I don't think she is even aware of her needs all the time and doesn't state them too often.
It wasn't a bad marriage, not toxic or abusive, nothing that couldn't be fixed. Just better, more open, honest communication and protecting couple time more would really make a big difference I think. Realising we're on the same team.
Hmm... it sounds like controlling is the right word.
Dig deeper there - where does the need to "be right" "optimize things" come from? It can come from a place a judgement, fear... but ask yourself what the harm was with letting her take the lead. And ask yourself if it's something that's worth working on.
I can tell you that no adult, spouse, or colleague likes to be controlled. No one likes to someone who acts like "they have to be right". It makes them run in the opposite direction. Especially if it isn't warranted.
Did you ever let your wife try? Did you ever try an approach where she could learn to better with money?
There would be your 1st 180. Not saying to put yourself in any financial or emotional danger... but try letting things not be "optimal". Try praising her instead of assuming she can't or that she can't as well as you.
It may not feel natural... but this is definitely a learnable skill. One you could probably benefit to learn regardless of your marriage status.
M(f): 40 D'ed: 8/12
Show empathy when there's pain. Show grace when warranted. Kindness in the midst of anger. Faith in the face of fear.
Yeah, the need to be right and logical all the time is something I've been digging into. I haven't got to the emotional root of it yet though.
I've definitely started pulling back on trying to do everything for her, stepping in when the kids are getting a handful during 'her parenting time' etc.
We do have joint finances to cover joint household bills and then we each handle everything else individually. I overpay though so I will look to even things up more in future if she agrees and maybe W can feel more proud of her contribution.
So I went to IC again, I was hoping to talk more about me but ended up talking mostly about the sitch. T thinks I am doing really well, more secure and grounded than I feel I am. I feel like I'm anxious but I suppose my actions don't seem that way even if my feelings do sometimes.
I'm feeling more detached all the time. Really starting to accept that W is a different person now from the woman I married or even the woman of 2 years ago. The more I read about depression, the more it seems that is a big part of what we're dealing with. That knowledge doesn't solve anything, it helps me find a bit of compassion though.
T is trying to convince me to attempt to connect with W and I will. T also suggests MC but I'll play that as it comes without pushing too hard for it.
I've been listening to some Chris Voss interviews and podcasts to try to sharpen up my communication and listening skills. Not only have I had to become an amateur psychologist and relationship guru this last while, now I need to train as a hostage negotiator. All just to have a conversation with my own wife!
I really got on making my changes really quickly - before BD even. Finding NMMNG and similar books and working through the exercises unlocked some things in my mind that had been holding me back. This was a huge shift for me, and I got control of one really big issue in my life.
I'm feeling good about the future. Letting go of the fear we all feel when we lose control of we thought was our world, our future.
My GAL progress stalled a bit this week though. I need to get back to that over the next few days -some home improvements I want to work on.
W is away on a girls night this weekend so I will have lots of time to have fun with the kids.
I just asked her how she was feeling and listened and validated as she talked about a different childhood issue from those she mentioned before, about how she's a people pleaser, only ever did anything in her life to please other, me her mum etc.
How she feels emotionally detached from the relationship. How she wouldnt mind if i said i liked someone else (in other words she wants permission to be with someone else). I should have said how I wouldn't do that because of my marriage vows and because I'm faithful but instead I reminded her jokingly how she used to talk about cutting my b0lls off if I cheated. W said she been looking at old photos trying to get feelings back. I said I think love comes from doing loving things.
I said I worried a bit about her health. She said she doesn't feel depressed but I don't think everyone who is deprssed recognises it do they?
All in all, interesting to hear her perspective on things. I mostly listened, validated, didn't react. Thanked her for the talk.
I did ask if she had given up on the idea of keeping the family together. I know this is a high pressure question. She paused a long while and didn't give a negative but nowhere near a strong positive either.
She knows we can't continue like this at least so there is a small bit of self awareness there but still so wrapped up in herself and her own thoughts and feelings.
It's a pity. She might not be capable of coming back to the marriage in the way that I need. But all good information.
Thanks for the replies. I get it on the feelings being 'right now'. I know they can change. I've seen it first hand. I suppose what I was trying to figure out is how much I'm being taken for a ride or is W in a genuine struggle. Maybe you'll say what does it matter. She seems genuine. I think manipulation would seem a lot more 'sweet'.
I sense a bit of waywardness in W still and I'm mindful of Sandi's warning about getting stuck in a dead marriage roommate situation post A. Hence my grenade.
I think for me 180s are no longer being a nice guy pushover and also being more emotionally available.
Yes feelings take time to change and I know I'm not being as patient as the advice here. I've been pulling back for a while and it doesn't seem to work. Do what works? Making connection does I think. Even though she wants to avoid talking, checking in with her seems a way to get her to open up and see that i am approachable and she can feel seen or understood. I heard enough so I can put the grenades away for a while.
Another 180 for me is not jumping in to fix or show off what i know or have a better idea (Caught myself too late doing it again tonight). Guys like this kind of talk - Ladies don't. So I'm trying to hang back more in these types of conversations.
Communication skills. This is one I probably overlooked because I'm fairly clear, direct and precise in how I talk. If anything im a bit quiet, and because I know I'm quiet, I also thought I was a good listener but I'm realising that's not true. Getting better at listening and talking in such a way that people want to open up more, thats a real skill and a new one I need to learn.
And then women typically aren't clear and direct when talking about what they want and need. It's more subtle hints and riddles. My wife probably already told me everything I ever needed to know, I just didn't know how to tune in properly, read between the lines and tease out the crucial information.
Doing “what works” shouldn’t be your goal. Nothing will work as far as changing W’s course until she is ready to change on her own. Detachment will “work” if/when she decides she wants to be with you. I made the same mistake with my W, looking for her reactions instead of doing what was best for me. GAL, detach, and stop the R talks. I promise you will be better off.I also know how hard that advice is to follow. Hang in there.
Dynamic, we are doing our best to be straight up and confront you out of care and respect and because this is what this place is for. we have experienced it and have benefited from members telling us the truth.
we are not you nor in your shoes. we do however have hope for you that you can do this. its hard really hard.
Yes, there is a fair possibility I'm being stupid. Don't worry, not blaming myself, just coming to terms with the fact that i have lots to learn.
I'm quite analytical. Maybe too much so. I make an effort to understand the 'why' behind the rules so I can decide why some rules or advice conflicts with advice from other sources and which to use and when. I'm going to make mistakes. But I don't feel this was too bad.
It's hard. The most difficult and painful thing I've ever been through.
Trying to walk the tightropes of detachment, GAL, being a confident attractive man who wouldn't put up with being disrespected or having his time wasted. Being assertive and confident and fun but stable and consistent. Validate, listen and create emotional safety but don't be the gay best friend.
All while sharing a house with W and parenting 3 young kids together. There's a reason it takes 2 people to do this and to choose this as a good time to want to walk out of the family makes the mind boggle.
I can see why patience and working on myself is the advice. Everyday I get more detached, more confident that I'll be OK no matter what. Less afraid of whatever happens. That has to be attractive.
I do see there is a mindset shift I haven't fully made - letting go and having no expectations.
After the last conversation with W I've realised she isn't really capable of helping me right now. She is dealing well with day to day stuff of parenting and work but emotionally she is so wrapped up in herself, and is still burying her head in the sand I feel.
There's no empathy for me, she is still so cold and distant.
One of the things that I can't get used to, even after months, is the lengths she will go to to avoid the slightest touch as we pass each other in the house.
I know I just have to work on my own healing and detach (with love). She's cake eating and there isn't much I can really do about it other than GAL, concentrate on myself and don't be so available to her.
I'm currently reading The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F**k by Mark Manson. It's quite timely to be reading this now. It also gives one perspective on how our WS's get into the predicament they are in. We all have only so many f**ks to give and if we spend them on stuff that doesn't matter, we don't have enough left for the real things that will make us happy.
Our WS's get into comparing themselves and their lives with what they see in movies, novels, social media or whatever and get caught up with the idea they are missing out. They spend all their time chasing a hit to convince themselves that they are happy based on these messed up metrics of what happiness should look like.
Instead we should embrace the pain of an imperfect life. Drill down into who we truly are and what we truly value. Find the problems to solve that will get us closer to those values, these are good problems to have. Then we start caring less about all the other stuff that doesn't matter. Why give ourselves problems that don't get us closer to what we value?
For me, this means a further step back from Ws drama, more concentration on myself and kids for the next while. Drill down into my own values. Lean into the pain, use it to drill down into my own core values. Less giving a f**k about anything else.
I'm doing well. Reading, listening to audiobooks, running, hitting the gym. Loving time with my kids. I started to help out with coaching my son's soccer team this week.
Trying to connect more with friends. Trying not to talk about my sitch so that has been stopping me connecting a bit because i know friends will ask. But I have to do it for me. I don't have to tell everything that is going on.
Consuming some youtube material that I saw recommended on here by Ready2change that is helping me reset my mindset and preconceptions about women and relationships.
Detachment rolls on. Really trying to dig in to my inner values and what I want in life. Here's what I have so far...
Friends - when we first moved in to the house I really expected we'd have friends and family over a lot more but this hasn't happened. Partly due to the busyness of young family, partly due to me not being proactive enough.
Music - I used to go to a lot of gigs and played instruments. I gave up a lot of this for family. I now have 2 gigs in the calendar for this year, hopefully more to follow.
Sex, intimacy, connection, commitment. I want this (I know - how can I still want this?). I know I do need to rebalance how I approach this. Keeping more of my own, separate life? And how to negotiate trust and commitment is going to be difficult. I don't know where I will end up on this front.
Travel - Something I used to love but since getting married and having kids our travel has been more local. Work gives me some opportunities to do this. I will look for individual and family opportunities to travel more widely.
I'm listening to The Untethered Soul by Michael Singer on audiobook. I finished it once through and will go through again. I would recommend this for any LBS to help with the mindset shifts we need to make.
W is going to take the kids to dinner at a family member this weekend. I'm invited but I'm going to phone ahead and make my apologies. The thought of 3 hrs in the car with W doesn't really appeal to me right now. I get the feeling W doesn't want me to go and a small part of me would go and be my super charming self just to annoy her but that would be petty. I have lots of 'me stuff' to work on instead...
How does one apologise, and make it clear that it is my personal choice not to attend without letting them know that it's because of difficulties in the marriage?
Also, what about inviting friends over to the house while living with a miserable, shut down wife? I expect she'd put on her 'outgoing, friendly personality' that everyone else but me sees and get on with it. I just don't know if this is seen as pressure (she always wants to be the perfect hostess), and why should I care?
I'm realising how my time is my most precious and valuable asset...
I'm also celebrating a personal milestone so I'll take myself out for a steak dinner this weekend!
Last edited by DnJ; 01/30/2505:37 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
Good to see you digging into yourself. Getting a handle on your values and what you want in life.
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
W is going to take the kids to dinner at a family member this weekend. I'm invited but I'm going to phone ahead and make my apologies. The thought of 3 hrs in the car with W doesn't really appeal to me right now. I get the feeling W doesn't want me to go and a small part of me would go and be my super charming self just to annoy her but that would be petty. I have lots of 'me stuff' to work on instead...
My two cents: you should go. Embrace family time. Lead by example. Be the lighthouse. Act as if.
You are correct, definitely do not be petty and purposely annoy W.
I’d also change your viewpoint and projected dreading the three hour car ride with W. We do make our fate. Small behaviours are picked up and alter things. When you have pre-decided that the car ride will be bad, your mind will make it that way.
What you say, and predict, it’s powerful. Your mind is always listening and will craft your reality just as you are asking it to. Flip your preconception. Dial those expectations to zero. For unmet expectations lead to resentments. Even unmet “negative” expectations.
Instead, you control you. Go into this car ride as three hours with your kids and W. Not something full of dread and what might be. Make it what you want. Like your inner work. What do you want in life? Spending time with your kids is likely high on that list. Being Dad. So do it. Not try, do. There is no try.
Your mindset, a strong mindset, can and will influence plenty. If W starts some crap in the car ride, ignore it. Like dog training, ignore the negative and reward the positive. You only control you, yet do not short change your ability to influence. Especially the atmosphere of a car ride.
Besides, a few car games, signing to music, will make the time fly by. And touches on your inner work priorities: Friends, family, music, connection, commitment, travel.
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
How does one apologize, and make it clear that it is my personal choice not to attend without letting them know that it's because of difficulties in the marriage?
Yes, it is your personal choice. Yet to me, I think you’d be going if your marriage wasn’t having difficulties. Hence, my suggestion to go.
Be genuine and sincere and honest with everyone and above all, yourself.
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
Also, what about inviting friends over to the house while living with a miserable, shut down wife?
Same thing, zero your expectations. You are expecting W to behave/respond a certain way.
My suggestion, ask/tell her you are having/planning on having some friends over on whatever night. Invite her to attend. See what her response is. She may perk up, she may be mad, or whatever. Who knows. Don’t walk on eggshells. See her response and roll with it.
Be kind and see where her head is at. Like a roommate. They don’t have veto power, yet you don’t go out of your way to bug them.
Have no expectations. Allow yourself to be surprised. Going into things with a different outlook usually crafts a different outcome. Of course sometimes it may not. However, it is guaranteed not to when we start out looking to make it that way.
That’s a pretty good inner value to adopt, IMHO.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Thanks for the thoughtful and challenging reply DnJ.
I suppose I have been getting a bit negative today. A bit angry I suppose. I've been going through the LBS stages of grief as well and I think I'm between depression and acceptance. But anger pops up regularly. It's easier to see in hindsight and my progress did dip for a while. It's to be expected.
I suppose with this at home limbo it's just difficult to know what I'm supposed to be doing. If there was an obvious ongoing affair or she moved out it would be clear. I get that she's in crisis of some kind but I don't see that as an excuse for treating me the way she is. I just feel like giving her very little of my time and attention, like she is doing to me. I'm getting no help in healing from her so I feel I have enough on my plate. Attraction and respect are low or non existant should I not just show her that I'm ready to move on?
I feel closer to ending things myself at the moment. You might then ask why am I here. I suppose because some of the better advice I've seen is here. I'm confused and don't know if the situation can be turned around.
I do want to save my marriage and keep my family together but not at the cost of my happiness and mental health.
I'll sleep on it before I decide about the weekend plans.
You said, “ I just feel like giving her very little of my time and attention, like she is doing to me.”
It’s good to acknowledge your feelings express them here process them let them go and not let them be your compass or rudder.
You are a grown man responsible for your actions and thus use as your guide things more reliable and sound than your feelings and how she has been treating you.
There is a lot at stake for you with or without her and in spite of how she treats you.
Hey I can relate. Feelings wow intense and powerful- at times unrelenting..
I went on the trip in the end. I was in a better mood. Felt like being sociable and wanted to enjoy some good food and company. The kids loved it. Had a great time. Not much hassle from W except the usual coldness and a bit of criticism of my driving which I let wash over me.
I'm still reading, exercising, working on the home, being social with friends, doing things for me.
Really digging in to reclaiming my dark side, my fun side, my adventurous side. It's so easy to fall into the discipline of routine when being a dad and having to provide for a family. We can lose some parts of ourselves slowly over time.
Time and patience is one thing but I will soon have to see some progress from W. I had a timeline for reevaluating in mind. I see no reason not to assert what I want and expect from a marriage. Why shouldnt I? We need to get unstuck.
We can lose some parts of ourselves slowly over time.
You'll find that pretty common in our stories here. It seems to be true both in the WAS and the LBS. It was true of me.
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
Time and patience is one thing but I will soon have to see some progress from W. I had a timeline for reevaluating in mind. I see no reason not to assert what I want and expect from a marriage. Why shouldnt I? We need to get unstuck.
On those timelines ... I'm not sure if you have really grasped how long these things take. Stories here that helped me understand were from Sandi2, AmyC, and FightingFit. Read through the thread below to see inside the mind of a woman who was in an A and what it took to come out. Her H was apparently broken by the attempt to wait that long.
Originally Posted by FightingFit
I think it takes about 2 years after the Affair for the person to truly reconnect to their partner and truly begin to see their behavior for how bad it was and truly ASSIMILATE the shame enough to finally feel REGRET. as I said, lets hope you can make it that long. there is no short cut.
Hi! I’m kinda new here, and I resonated a bit with your story. It’s so hard to want to be the bigger person when our S is doing things to hurt us…it seems like you are doing a great job trying to work on yourself and be there for your kids. I’m trying to do the same.
I keep trying to remind myself about patience too, my H is in what I believe is a MLC and seems this could be a very long road…where will we all end up I often wonder?
Thanks for posting that Grok. I have read a lot on this site but I hadn't seen any of FightingFit's posts before. I will be reading through that again. It's a great insight.
Yes, I have read numerous times about the 2+ years timeline but from what I read in FightingFit's post, I should not be afraid of applying more tough love in terms of my W's secrecy, suspicious behaviour and failure to act like she's in the M. I know the feelings will take a long while to follow and I don't want W to be forced back to the M. The debate seems to be about being tough and getting respect but W being 'forced' back vs DB'ing and her (maybe) WANTING to eventually come back to the M.
As it stands I'm more and more unsure if I want this woman back. Correction - I DON'T want THIS woman. I suppose I'm holding on to the hope of a healed version of my old wife.
I know I have more work to do on myself so that is part of what gives me some more patience.
The more I read on here, and especially FightingFits posts, and when I look back in hindsight at my own sitch, the moment we husbands expose or confront the affair is the time where we have the most power to turn the situation around. We really need to compose ourselves, not be afraid and leverage this situation to our advantage. I thought I went pretty hard/tough but I realise now that I wasn't tough enough. My wife should have been out to stay at her parents or OMs or wherever and not allowed back until certain conditions were met. My mistake was not enforcing those conditions.
I think how I expected her to act wasn't what ended up happening so I didn't have everything in place. I was too caught up in the MLC narrative of leaving the affair alone (that is probably more applicable to MLC H's than for W's).
My strength and detachment is getting more each day as well. At the moment I'm happy pulling away and getting my own life back on track but I think we'll naturally reach a point where I run out of patience.
Yes, I'm sure my W is in some sort of identity crisis. She has an avoidant personality I think and has been bottling up things for years probably. Her emotions seem to be overwhelming her at the moment. So withdrawn, cold, distant. Sometimes in an ok mood. Sometimes irritable. Different from a lot of MLCs.
Be strong, look inside to find your own true values, start to live them. Our S aren't choosing us so we need to choose ourselves.
Good for you not engaging in her obvious digs; letting her comments just wash over you. Our spouse knows us best, and knows what buttons to push. Knows how to get their hooks into us. You remaining calm, not taking her bait, likely turned the tables on her. Made her think. She didn’t get the usually response from you.
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
I suppose with this at home limbo it's just difficult to know what I'm supposed to be doing. If there was an obvious ongoing affair or she moved out it would be clear. I get that she's in crisis of some kind but I don't see that as an excuse for treating me the way she is. I just feel like giving her very little of my time and attention, like she is doing to me. I'm getting no help in healing from her so I feel I have enough on my plate. Attraction and respect are low or non existant should I not just show her that I'm ready to move on?
True, her crisis is not an excuse for treating you like she is. Her emotional turmoil is a reason for her treatment. That does not exonerate her behaviour, just somewhat explains it.
Likewise, her treatment of you is not an excuse for you to behave poorly. Consider your vows, the part of in sickness and in health. W is ill. Do you stand? Or do you run?
Embrace limbo. Dig into yourself. Find you. Become the best version of you. For you! Dynamiq2.0. A man only a fool would leave.
You cannot control W from doing something foolish. You only control you.
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
I feel closer to ending things myself at the moment. You might then ask why am I here. I suppose because some of the better advice I've seen is here. I'm confused and don't know if the situation can be turned around.
I do want to save my marriage and keep my family together but not at the cost of my happiness and mental health.
Detachment is when you are no longer uncontrollably drag around by her words or behaviour. The key here being “uncontrollably”. You will still feel, yet you can exert influence and affect those feelings.
After detachment comes indifference. A temporary period of numbness towards one’s spouse. Note: Temporary. It will feel like that numbness is forever, will last forever. Like all feelings, it is fleeting. The numbness does fade and one’s feelings do return.
So, a caution. During indifference be aware that other feelings will loom much larger than they really are against the void of one’s “indifferent” love. Make no major decision during this period which are predicated upon your feelings or lack thereof.
Indifference is an excellent time to find one’s self. To do that so very important inner work. Indifference silences the cacophony of our spouse-induced feelings. One can really dig in sans distraction. Make the most of that fleeting time.
Realize happiness comes from within. Of course, so does unhappiness. And joy, elation, and so on. You are your well-spring.
Most folks never get thrust upon this path. For those willing to embrace DB, embrace their inner work, this is a golden opportunity.
DB may not save your marriage; after all W does have a say in that. However, embracing DB will save you!
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
Time and patience is one thing but I will soon have to see some progress from W. I had a timeline for reevaluating in mind. I see no reason not to assert what I want and expect from a marriage. Why shouldnt I? We need to get unstuck.
Pressure. Too much will push her right out the door.
Timelines. W, and her crisis, is not on your timeline. Embrace limbo. Embrace hope.
Hope is timeless. A timeline places an end point, a deadline, upon things. A deadline does just that - makes hope dead.
During all this, you don’t sit around waiting for W. No pinning away. Find thyself. Heal thyself. Become Dynamiq2.0.
Live and love your life. Love your kids. Do activities with them. Do activities by yourself. Invite W along on family events. Live your best life, and let W run to catch up, if she chooses to.
You cannot force her. And you likely wouldn’t want a spouse who was forced anyhow.
Figure out your boundaries against disrespectful behaviour, don’t walk on eggshells, be kind and cordial. That’s how you embrace limbo. You choose to.
In my opinion, the best way to assert in a relationship, demonstrate it. Live it. And let them follow your lead. Actions vs words.
You can’t talk your way out of something you acted your way into.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Good for you not engaging in her obvious digs; letting her comments just wash over you. Our spouse knows us best, and knows what buttons to push. Knows how to get their hooks into us. You remaining calm, not taking her bait, likely turned the tables on her. Made her think. She didn’t get the usually response from you.
The thing about this is that I've always had an even temper, I very rarely react with anger or 'rise to the bait'. Maybe that would be a 180 for me, to show a bit more 'heat' and emotion.
Thanks to Grok's link to FightingFit I found a great old thread with a very similar Limbo situation to mine...
Now, I haven't read to the end so I'm not sure how the sitch eventually played out. The OP of this thread seems to have spent a long time (years) analysing his wife's actions, posting a lot and not getting a life or standing up for himself as much as he should from what I see.
The real value in the thread is in the replies, the debates and the tips on attraction, forgiveness, detachment, friendliness, seduction, assertiveness.
It is helping me tie up all the advice I've been getting here, in IC, from friends, from other sources. There are so many conflicts in my mind that are now starting to dissolve into glimpses of clarity...
Detachment vs being a friend vs attraction and seduction. Patience vs assertiveness. GAL vs be the lighthouse. Do 180s vs finding your true self.
There is a path through that combines all these elements. It takes time to see it. It comes slowly. Reading what others have gone through, reading all the advice, reading books etc gives us a head start. It moves us more quickly than we could by just muddling through alone. It gives hope in times where we might just give up. It challenges our biases and blind spots. It gives an insight into our S where they are unable or unwilling to enlighten us themselves.
Reading these posts is so interesting and some great insights are there to be found but it also has to be balanced with quiet time alone to process the info and find one's own way. It's too easy to get lost in analysis thinking there is an answer to be found if we just look hard enough. I have been guilty of this since I am quite an analytical person, a fixer. A truth that I know in theory but still need to internalise is that only 50% of this situation is mine to fix. There is another 50% that is out of my control.
Also, there is only so much time in the day and all the time reading and posting here and elsewhere is time that isn't spent GALing. These things need to be balanced too...
My IC is also advising patience, friendship, to relax and stop strategizing so much or worrying about tactics. To just take the pressure off myself and approach the situation honestly. To shelve my need to see accountability, remorse etc for now. Those things will come in time if there is to be an R. I think my need/want for these things has been a blockage to me getting on with what I need to do to make an R possible. This will be the difficult part for me.
What we learn in DB is a lot of tactics, that gets us through the first weeks/months after BD. I think ultimately the goal needs to be recentering, finding our true, best selves and then going forward without needing all the 'tactics'. It then becomes second nature. This is the real work - finding our own path so we can proceed with true confidence and integrity.
It's difficult. You can be doing so well for a few days then something can knock you back. In this case it is W planning time away with the children with a lady friend and not with me. I didn't react. I responded that I was planning a work trip around the same time and didn't want to be away from the kids the extra few days. W was ok about it and said she would move her date.
I don't want another spring/summer of W taking kids away on separate trips. It was like this last year... "I'll go with my mum" or "it'll give you time to do work at the house". In reality it was to create distance in the relationship.
I don't want this continued dead marriage, no effort, sad situation. It's affecting the kids.
I get that forcing her back isn't the way. But how to wake her up, get her unstuck? She can't be happy living like this.
So some of the logistics of our sitch.
I gave lots of space from DB on. maybe 10-15 R talks in 6 months (including those around BD and EA). I know we say no R talk but this doesn't seem like much. No sex since before BD. I have started some light touching as it felt natural the last few days. Day to day we rarely text, we don't speak much except for logistics, kids are always there, she goes to D's room at D's bedtime. I try to ask about her day but mostly get short replies. W has not returned to IC since Christmas. W seems to think we will co-parent like this indefinitely. Stuff gets done at home. We are both proactive enough to keep things ticking over. There isn't much future planning going on. Not a great way to run a family... I'm trying to match her energy, maybe leading/approaching slightly more but not easy when nothing's coming back. I'm listening, making eye contact. Not much eye contact coming back.
W has got a bit more secretive on social media lately but she will leave her phone unlocked and leave the room. I tend not to snoop. Recently her and friends went for a night out. It was strange that I didn't see any of them posting pictures.
So I guess this seems like me obsessing over her still.
I see things clearly at times and then feel confused again. Maybe I'm grasping too much. Maybe confusion is ok. It just isn't comfortable for me. Is this too comfortable for her?
You want to see results and you are not seeing any and it’s frustrating to you. You are an impatient fixer who has probably always found a way when you encountered an issue. My guess is that you think if you keep trying the things you have been reading you can certainly fix this? I am going to be honest with you. You have three very young children and your W has one foot out the door. She is either really psychologically impaired or a lot of damage has been done. Either way it is going to take a really long time to turn this around. It is going to take a lot of changing on your part and infinite patience. Do you have it in you?
I get that forcing her back isn't the way. But how to wake her up, get her unstuck? She can't be happy living like this.
This is the wrong question. Stop focusing on her, what she "should" do, what she might be feeling etc. I understand that your brain is directing all of your energy towards these questions. You need to manually override that loop and re-focus on yourself and your life. The GAL idea everyone here harps on really works. What do YOU want? How would you live if your W was abducted by aliens tomorrow?
I've been where you are and I know it's miserable. For years I tried to behave in a way that I hoped would guide my wife back to some version of our marriage that I thought would solve the problem. I was changing my behavior for her, not myself. This doesn't work. Detach, GAL, and take valued actions towards the things in your life that matter to YOU.
I can tell you with confidence that if you follow that process it will improve your life dramatically, to the point where you will be much less concerned with how your sitch resolves. You will realize that your W is the one who has to "fix" her issues, not you. All of that is up to her and beyond your power.
When I first posted to you - you admitted that you were controlling before retreating and saying "well not that much".
But based on your this post - it's very much true. You want to control the situation. BD was 6 months ago... and you're already tired. You want to give up. You want your way.
To me - you want to stay the same. You say how and when things are done. Well then you can't expect different results.
Like Boat said she's either impaired OR you have hurt her deeply. You are just automatically assuming the 1st in all of your posts. Will you even consider the 2nd? That perhaps - your need to control every aspect of your marriage and how she did things MIGHT actually lead her to not want to be married to you anymore?
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
It's difficult. You can be doing so well for a few days then something can knock you back. In this case it is W planning time away with the children with a lady friend and not with me. I didn't react. I responded that I was planning a work trip around the same time and didn't want to be away from the kids the extra few days. W was ok about it and said she would move her date.
So you are allowed to take off on a trip but not her... based off of reasons that are "acceptable" to you". What about the kids. Perhaps they would have liked the trip? Did you consider them in your "need" to be close to them
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
I don't want another spring/summer of W taking kids away on separate trips. It was like this last year... "I'll go with my mum" or "it'll give you time to do work at the house". In reality it was to create distance in the relationship.
You have no control over this.
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
I don't want this continued dead marriage, no effort, sad situation. It's affecting the kids.
Interesting - perhaps she feels the same.
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
I get that forcing her back isn't the way. But how to wake her up, get her unstuck? She can't be happy living like this.
So some of the logistics of our sitch. I gave lots of space from DB on. maybe 10-15 R talks in 6 months (including those around BD and EA). I know we say no R talk but this doesn't seem like much. No sex since before BD. I have started some light touching as it felt natural the last few days. Day to day we rarely text, we don't speak much except for logistics, kids are always there, she goes to D's room at D's bedtime. I try to ask about her day but mostly get short replies. W has not returned to IC since Christmas. W seems to think we will co-parent like this indefinitely. Stuff gets done at home. We are both proactive enough to keep things ticking over. There isn't much future planning going on. Not a great way to run a family... I'm trying to match her energy, maybe leading/approaching slightly more but not easy when nothing's coming back. I'm listening, making eye contact. Not much eye contact coming back.
10-15 R talks isn't space. My guess is that she isn't initiating $ex. The board would also most likely tell you not to if she did. The board would also say to not initiate conversation however to engage and validate WHEN she does want to share.
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
W has got a bit more secretive on social media lately but she will leave her phone unlocked and leave the room. I tend not to snoop. Recently her and friends went for a night out. It was strange that I didn't see any of them posting pictures.
So I guess this seems like me obsessing over her still.
I see things clearly at times and then feel confused again. Maybe I'm grasping too much. Maybe confusion is ok. It just isn't comfortable for me. Is this too comfortable for her?
Remind me again. what am i wrong about?
You won't be honest with yourself. I personally don't see anywhere in your posts that you are a nice guy who has been walked all over the last 8 years of your marriage. I see a guy who judges her wife and resents her for things that absolutely has NOTHING to do with you. You seek to blame her verse understand her. It's your way or no way.
And I'm not sure you're ready to admit all of that.
M(f): 40 D'ed: 8/12
Show empathy when there's pain. Show grace when warranted. Kindness in the midst of anger. Faith in the face of fear.
You won't be honest with yourself. I personally don't see anywhere in your posts that you are a nice guy who has been walked all over the last 8 years of your marriage. I see a guy who judges her wife and resents her for things that absolutely has NOTHING to do with you. You seek to blame her verse understand her. It's your way or no way.
And I'm not sure you're ready to admit all of that.
I meant "I see guy who judges HIS wife and resents her for things that absolutely has NOTHING to do with HIM.
M(f): 40 D'ed: 8/12
Show empathy when there's pain. Show grace when warranted. Kindness in the midst of anger. Faith in the face of fear.
So this morning I was in a much better place and thinking about my mood when I posted last night and how i was thrown so far off course by something so small. It was obvious to me, as it is to all of you, that I still haven't found the patience I need and my happiness is still too tied up in what's happening with my wife.
Valeska I'm going to dig deeper on what you have said before I'll reply to those points on control.
At BD I was taking 100% of the responsibility. When I found out about her 10month Affair then I swung to taking 50% or less. Now I am only looking control what I can control. But yes, figuring out what is OUTSIDE my control is another thing...
-"The board would also say to not initiate conversation however to engage and validate WHEN she does want to share." Not initiating I understand if there is an active A but even in our sitch where I'm hoping to recover and just be myself and try to present some sort of normality for the kids?
None of this is easy, and I don’t think most of us know how to navigate these situations after BD. I know for me, I tried to control what I thought I could because my life felt and feels totally out of control. It’s a tough spot to be in.
I think it’s always helpful to reflect on our contributions to the marriage breakdown, even if we don’t feel we are 100% to blame. As you said, you took some responsibility, but it’s not your fault your spouse decided to have an EA. I tell myself the same thing, while I contributed to the breakdown, that part isn’t on me, you know?
I appreciate your posts, and I think you are learning and navigating this situation the best you can day to day. All we can really do is become the best versions of ourselves right?
Normal married women with small children don’t stay out all night without being up to something.
If you want to find out than find out. If not put that all aside and decide what kind of person do you want to be moving forward and focus all your energy on that. The rest will eventually come to a head and work itself out.
Val, I took a few days to think and read more about your post on control. I am taking my own growth seriously. I also read back through your own early posts. I just skimmed, didn't have time for it all. I read that control was an issue in your M so I see why you're getting out the big stick.
Thanks for sticking around so long to help us newbies out.
Was/am I a dictating tyrant? No. Was I a nice guy doormat for 8 years? No. (Nice Guy Syndrome can mean different things for different people. I might post later on that.) The truth as always is somewhere in between.
Thinking about this particular issue of the trip. This is to our holiday some so dates are easy to change. Me mentioning that I'll miss the kids if I am away for 9 or 10 nights instead of 5 is progress for me. Before I would have said nothing and possibly got resentful. Maybe the next stage of my journey will be getting to the point where I'm OK being away from the kids for longer periods. For now, I guess I still haven't given up on the idea of family holidays. W in this case decided herself to change the dates, without me asking. Knowing i would miss the kids and showing some empathy for me.
Why did this trip trigger me? 2 reasons I think. 1. I must have an abandonment/loneliness/rejection wound. I guess that's why I'm posting here trying to keep my marriage and family together. Probably most of us here have some sort of abandonment issue. 2. My lowest point last year wasn't actually BD1 or BD2. It was before that. On my birthday when affair fog wife took herself and kids away to holiday home. She asked what I wanted for birthday, I just said spending time family (im not big on material things). She left me at home knowing I had made some commitments and couldn't go. That was a real low point for me. Rejected and alone on my birthday. Still a trigger.
That was when I started my journey, looking inside, trying to figure out why I was allowing my marriage to drift apart.
In general, yes I have an issue with needing to be right and good. A need to hide flaws and appear perfect. Control comes into this too. I know this is from childhood patterns and I've been addressing these.
Part of my nice guy recovery is actually stating my feelings, needs, wants and not suppressing them. HOWEVER, the more I learn about Ws people pleasing tendencies, I realise I have to be careful that she isn't going along, suppressing her own needs/wants. I need to find better ways of communicating and listening. I don't want to slide back on expressing my own feelings but I should look to do it in a way that doesn't compromise W's healing from her own people pleasing.
I do need to keep in mind that It shouldn't matter whether you are DBing or MLCing. The same rules should apply to both spouses.
GAL activities this weekend, exercise, home improvements, meeting friends. Got given some last minute tickets to gig that my friend couldn't attend. Cooked for my family and had a friend join us. Got a haircut and heard that my barber has an even crazier sitch than mine happening in his M.
Also, Valentines... I wrote a lighthearted little poem about wife (nothing romantic) and left it out for her to find along with some things for a nice breakfast and I left for work. She didn't acknowledge. I didn't expect her to and didn't expect anything to come of it. I did it more for the kids. So they would see how to treat their S someday and how they should expect to be treated. I know you all will say it was a mistake or not DB. Whatever. I'm not going to be the guy sitting here asking Internet strangers for advice before I make every choice in my life. I think thats a bad habit to get into and a bit too 'Nice Guy'. I do however welcome my perspective being challenged. I'm posting here to find out where I'm wrong.
Val, I took a few days to think and read more about your post on control. I am taking my own growth seriously. I also read back through your own early posts. I just skimmed, didn't have time for it all. I read that control was an issue in your M so I see why you're getting out the big stick.
Interesting. And what do you think you are seeing?
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
Also, Valentines... I wrote a lighthearted little poem about wife (nothing romantic) and left it out for her to find along with some things for a nice breakfast and I left for work. She didn't acknowledge. I didn't expect her to and didn't expect anything to come of it. I did it more for the kids. So they would see how to treat their S someday and how they should expect to be treated. I know you all will say it was a mistake or not DB. Whatever. I'm not going to be the guy sitting here asking Internet strangers for advice before I make every choice in my life. I think thats a bad habit to get into and a bit too 'Nice Guy'. I do however welcome my perspective being challenged. I'm posting here to find out where I'm wrong.
Might want to re-read this. You sound quite full of yourself. And TBH - disrespectful to us.
Multiple vets have told you to give her space and you continue to ignore us. What's the point of us pointing out the "wrong" when you are just going to do your own thing...
... which continues to bring me back to what I've challenging you on.
You always seem to have a reason to excuse your choices or behaviors. This is not helpful if you indeed want to save your marriage... which I’m not quite sure you do. Perhaps you just want things back to the way they were.
Last edited by DnJ; 02/19/2501:46 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
M(f): 40 D'ed: 8/12
Show empathy when there's pain. Show grace when warranted. Kindness in the midst of anger. Faith in the face of fear.
Interesting. And what do you think you are seeing?
I've been reading through another webpage, which has a large section on Control. Actually some of the detachment material on this forum comes from the same section. It's going to take me some time but related to control is 'idealism' 'the need to fix', that struck a chord with me. I'll post more when I've figured it all out. I'm not a quick learner and I have more to read through on that.
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You sound quite full of yourself.
I'm ok with this. I know my W never liked it when I was indecisive. Being more confident and decisive is a 180 for me. I've seen on some threads where the LBS will analyse all decisions and get lots of advice (some of it conflicting) ahead of time. I'm not going to do that.
I'm trying to read and internalise all the advice here so I can hopefully DB without thinking too much or getting too analytical. I'm trying to get to where it is natural. That's why I'll post what I've done and why - so I can get a course correction or some feedback on where I'm being stupid.
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And TBH - disrespectful to us.
Not my intention.
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You always seem to have a reason to excuse your choices or behaviors.
So let me reason and excuse why I'm doing this - haha - I'm in a self analytical place at the moment. I'm trying to heal from an attachment that has caused me a great deal of pain. I'm trying to figure out where I have failed in my marriage. I am trying to figure out how I was blind to a lot of things going on in my own life. I'm trying to get to the childhood issues I have carried into my adult life and that have brought me to this moment. The best way I know how to get through this is to dig into the WHY of all these things. That way I might figure out if it's something I need/want to change and is there anything I can do about it.
I am giving as much space as I can within the constraints of a situation where we live together, eat together, manage a house/family together. All under the watchful eyes of 3 young and impressionable children.
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This is not helpful if you indeed want to save your marriage... which I don't not quite sure you do.
I'm trying to let go of the attachment to this outcome. I know it's not in my control to save the marriage and I actually don't know if I want to save it. I can only do my part and then see where things end up.
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Perhaps you just want things back to the way they were.
No, I'm a different person now and I don't like everything about how I was showing up in recent years.
Going back won't work. For W or for me.
I am wrestling with the idea that my expectations for what a marriage should be might not be realistic (back to the 'idealism' idea above) and I might need to recalibrate...
Last edited by DnJ; 02/19/2504:08 PM. Reason: Removed reference to external website.
You are receiving some top shelf feedback from folks here who have been through the wringer and have much hard-earned wisdom.
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
Now I am only looking control what I can control. But yes, figuring out what is OUTSIDE my control is another thing...
Control is a difficult thing. Well, actually letting go of trying to control what we do not, and cannot, is the difficult thing.
One only has direct control of three things: Their thoughts, actions, and reactions. Anything else is only varying degrees of influence.
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
I don't want this continued dead marriage, no effort, sad situation. It's affecting the kids.
What can you control, and therefore change for the better, in all of this? You.
Healing a marriage is going to time. And purposeful effort. Make changes for deep sincere reasons, for then those changes will have a much better chance at becoming permanent. By the way, it is going to take time for W to believe in your changes for she will think it just manipulation, trying to win her back.
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
I get that forcing her back isn't the way. But how to wake her up, get her unstuck? She can't be happy living like this.
You are correct, forcing her will not work.
How to wake her up, get her unstuck? You cannot. You don’t control her. However, you control you. You grow, become better. You give her time and space.
How you exert your control of you, will influence W and others. Be it significant or minimal, positive or negative, or even neutral, is out of your control. People do see others and take from them as they will. Being consistent helps.
She needs to come to her choices on her time. She has to walk her path, just as much as you need to walk your’s.
How to wake her up, get her unstuck? Divorce Busting will give you your best chance at this goal and at saving your marriage.
Yes, W is likely not happy living like she is. Is it because of you? Maybe a part of it. So fix you and what you can. The rest of her unhappiness is just that - her’s. You cannot fix what you didn’t break.
Time and space are your two biggest allies here. W needs both to get through what she is going through. And she is on her timeline, not your’s.
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
So some of the logistics of our sitch.
I gave lots of space from DB on. maybe 10-15 R talks in 6 months (including those around BD and EA). I know we say no R talk but this doesn't seem like much. No sex since before BD. I have started some light touching as it felt natural the last few days. Day to day we rarely text, we don't speak much except for logistics, kids are always there, she goes to D's room at D's bedtime. I try to ask about her day but mostly get short replies. W has not returned to IC since Christmas. W seems to think we will co-parent like this indefinitely. Stuff gets done at home. We are both proactive enough to keep things ticking over. There isn't much future planning going on. Not a great way to run a family... I'm trying to match her energy, maybe leading/approaching slightly more but not easy when nothing's coming back. I'm listening, making eye contact. Not much eye contact coming back.
W has got a bit more secretive on social media lately but she will leave her phone unlocked and leave the room. I tend not to snoop. Recently her and friends went for a night out. It was strange that I didn't see any of them posting pictures.
So I guess this seems like me obsessing over her still.
I see things clearly at times and then feel confused again. Maybe I'm grasping too much. Maybe confusion is ok. It just isn't comfortable for me. Is this too comfortable for her?
Time and space. I understand that to you 10-15 R-talks over 6 months sounds insignificant. To her, another “talk” every 12 days just keeps pushing her towards the door. You need to back off, way off.
Time for W is different than for you. You’ve stated she exhibits and has affirmed she is stressed, depressed, and confused. Folks lost in depression get stuck, mulling over stuff in their heads. They need to. Those R-talks pull her out of her needed mulling and somewhat restarts her clock again. Keep doing that and she will feel more and more resentment/blame towards you.
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
Originally Posted by Valeska19
The board would also say to not initiate conversation however to engage and validate WHEN she does want to share.
Not initiating I understand if there is an active A but even in our sitch where I'm hoping to recover and just be myself and try to present some sort of normality for the kids?
Yes! Keep initiating conversation to a minimum. Let her bring up stuff as she wants to. Then only listen and validate her feelings when she shares them. You do not push your agenda, or dump your feelings out.
I know. Totally unfair. The LBS having to do the lion’s share. Here’s the thing. W’s emotions are cranked to eleven and she has no bandwidth for you or anyone else’s feelings.
This is for “serious” conversation, like R-talks. You can, and should, be kind and cordial. Pressure-free. You can invite her to go out with you and the kids to a family activity. You can ask her to pass the milk; how was diner; if she’d like to watch a show; etc. Kind, cordial, and pressure-free.
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
Part of my nice guy recovery is actually stating my feelings, needs, wants and not suppressing them. HOWEVER, the more I learn about Ws people pleasing tendencies, I realise I have to be careful that she isn't going along, suppressing her own needs/wants. I need to find better ways of communicating and listening. I don't want to slide back on expressing my own feelings but I should look to do it in a way that doesn't compromise W's healing from her own people pleasing.
I do need to keep in mind that It shouldn't matter whether you are DBing or MLCing. The same rules should apply to both spouses.
I’m not quite sure what you mean by the rules should be applied to both.
The LBS usually is working on self improvements. Having received a jolting life-altering wake-up call. And will therefore heal and grow before their spouse.
The WW, WAS, MLCer, etc is on their path. Their improvements are on a different timeline. Some have come to things/realizations before dropping the bomb, and others will discover/heal far from now. It’s beyond the LBS’ control.
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
…I should look to do it in a way that doesn't compromise W's healing from her own people pleasing.
Yes, stating your feelings, needs, and wants is important. Start small, with friends and family. Thus not overloading W and allowing her time and space.
It’s important not to walk on eggshells around W, while being genuine and pressure-free.
Focus on you and the kids. GAL. Give time and space. Validate and listen when W offers.
Hope you have a great day.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
"I’m not quite sure what you mean by the rules should be applied to both."
This was in response to something Valeska said about me taking a trip at the same time as W. I need to let her do what she's going to do.
"The LBS usually is working on self improvements. Having received a jolting life-altering wake-up call. And will therefore heal and grow before their spouse"
True. And this is part of where my impatience has come from. I recognised this need for change quite early, I took the blame all on myself, made lots of changes and then got impatient. But I forgot the main thing. Detachment. The more I detach, the more I see it is the key. I'm not there yet. And I see I have more of a journey to go on. And I need time for that.
Dynamo, I see a lot of myself in your story and can relate to so much. Detach detach detach. It took me a while that’s for sure. And now somewhat full circle maybe, I have been able to see some things in new light after the dust has settled I suppose. I can be more objective and reflective about my own faults and weaknesses while no longer accepting more blame than I should. When someone (her) shows you who they are, believe them. Doesn’t mean this is who they always will be. People change. But this right now is where things really lie..
Not much to report from limbo land. I'm feeling peaceful. Pulling back. Leaning in to Detachment and letting go. W is busy trying to do practical things for me. I sense she feels that distance growing.
I want to tell her that I don't need or want a maid, but if that's all she's comfortable with giving at the moment then OK. I'm just making sure I'm pulling my weight in that area so she doesn't need to get resentful.
GALing has mostly been fitness related the last while. I have some creative projects I want to get into but that might have to wait now my dad has an illness.
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Time and space. I understand that to you 10-15 R-talks over 6 months sounds insignificant. To her, another “talk” every 12 days just keeps pushing her towards the door. You need to back off, way off
If I take 10 off around BD1 and BD2 then it's 5 talks in 5 months and that actually still sounds high when I put it that way. The thing I wasn't really getting was that the space isn't really for the WW even though they might want it, it's the LBS who NEEDS the space. We don't know what's happened, our world is turned upside down and we're in shock. The WS has had all the time in the world to detach and come to terms with things. There is nothing wrong with the LBS taking space to do the same. I would have benefitted from taking this more seriously.
I remember looking at the stages the LBS goes through and thinking that when I get to Acceptance that it would be peaceful but actually there is still quite a bit of pain in acceptance. Acceptance doesn't bring any sort of resolution, just the realisation that this is where we are, wife is not who I though she was. Our relationship wasn't what I thought it was. The future isn't what I thought it was.
But I'm also realising that this time really is a gift. A chance to write my own story. At some point i realised this would lead to a life transition of my own and I'm sure of that now, but I still don't know what that outcome will be. I want to take some time and figure this out...
I’m sorry to hear your Dad is having some health issues. I hope he recovers quickly.
You are correct, LBS needs space and time as well. By bomb drop, the leaving spouse has usually planned their exit for a while, and are rather detached by that point. The LBS plays catch up for the first bit. Later, if some sort of reconnection/reconciliation is fated or occurs, the tables turn, and it is the LBS who is further along and the returning spouse is the one running to catch up. Such seems to be the emotional/healing path.
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
I remember looking at the stages the LBS goes through and thinking that when I get to Acceptance that it would be peaceful but actually there is still quite a bit of pain in acceptance.
Yes acceptance does not mean pain-free. There are still times of hurt and sadness, although the magnitude and frequency of such are much diminished.
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
Acceptance doesn't bring any sort of resolution, just the realization that this is where we are, wife is not who I thought she was. Our relationship wasn't what I thought it was. The future isn't what I thought it was.
To me, this sounds like the end of bargaining.
Bargaining is when one tries all manner of things in an attempt to keep the old normal alive. Once one has exhausted all their efforts, the profound realization that the old normal is dead starts to sink in. This heralds the next stage - depression, when one works through that death and their feelings around and about it (regrets, deep sadness, etc.).
I found acceptance has less thinking and realizations. (Sounds weird, doesn’t it.) Acceptance is basically emotional understanding. And the journey to emotional understanding is quite a path.
It starts with intellectual understanding (ex: wasn’t what I thought it was) as one requires a certain amount of understanding before they can/will let go. This letting go/detaching allows and furthers the emotional healing and processing. Intellectual understanding and emotional intelligence both grow and go forward hand in hand towards acceptance.
The stage of depression is a huge part of gaining acceptance/emotional understanding. The lion’s share of working through depression is most definitely upon our subconscious self. The conscious self is the realm of intellect, logic, reason, planning, and such. The subconscious is the realm of emotions, beliefs, faith; all that which is beyond one’s reason. The very realm and heart of grief.
Of our four paths/roads - physical, intellectual, emotional , and spiritual - only the first two (physical and intellectual) one can directly control. Actions, reactions, and thoughts. Yet, through those, one influence all their paths, in which their values and convictions and feelings yet in turn further influence all paths. That is where peace lives, within that feedback, within one’s subconscious self.
When one gets all their four “cars” moving along at the same speed and all together on the paths, peace and contentment is found. It’s us learning to listen and speak with our deep self.
Grief is a journey. And it will be complete on its timeline, and not one second earlier. We do (control) what we can. Focus on self, go to work, get out of bed, GAL, and so on; leaving and allowing our subconscious to churn away.
Yep, time is a gift. I think embracing DBing inevitably brings a life transition. You are wise to take time and not rush it.
Hope you have a great day.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
I'm working a lot, both at my own job and with my dad's business while he recovers so time, space is easy to achieve at the moment. W is picking up some more of the slack at home and with the kids.
It feels like there is a canyon between us at the moment, even if we're just a few inches apart. Some surface level conversations with W but kids are always there interrupting and being kids...
In the car, W will just look out the window or at her phone. At home she'll be in another room or in bed. We're only together with the kids present.
It hurts seeing her act 'normally' with other people and even doing things for my family while I get the cold shoulder. Like I don't exist or like I'm just a useful but uninteresting inanimate object. A walking bank account.
Continuing to detach, accept and learn about myself. The pain is less but still intense when it comes. I cried for the first time in all this... the first time since my daughter was born.
I learned that my idea of what love actually is was always a bit skewed. Service, providing, giving - I thought this was the essence of love - what you can give to and do for others. This is why I have struggled with feeling good enough, why I gave up some parts of myself that I shouldn't have, and I think this has played into our R problems. A huge part I was missing was that I am enough - I don't need to give so much - but just being there, being and present and validating others is huge.
I actually already instinctively knew this in my R with my kids but somehow not in my M. Why?
Continuing to GAL but less time for it at the moment - fitness, home projects, time with kids.
I learned that my idea of what love actually is was always a bit skewed. Service, providing, giving - I thought this was the essence of love - what you can give to and do for others. This is why I have struggled with feeling good enough, why I gave up some parts of myself that I shouldn't have, and I think this has played into our R problems. A huge part I was missing was that I am enough - I don't need to give so much - but just being there, being and present and validating others is huge.
I actually already instinctively knew this in my R with my kids but somehow not in my M. Why?
We love our kids pretty much unconditionally. Our partner love is/becomes more transactional.
An interesting read is the Five Love Languages. “what you can give to and do for others” is your encapsulation of what love is and how it is expressed. There are 5 distinct languages/avenues of expressing and receiving that message. Words of affirmation, quality time, acts of service, physical touch, and gifts (receiving/giving).
Understanding oneself and their partner’s LL illustrates love’s previous miscommunications and highlights how to better express going forward. Example, you may place the most importance on receiving gifts, while your partner place most importance on quality time. So, no matter how many gifts you give, what they are truly desiring is to spend time, quality time, together. Even though, to you, you believe you are showing your deep love. The problem is, it’s not being heard as well as it could be.
It’s about how we receive love and express love. (Those may not be the same.) And how our partner does. That makes four different avenues overall. The key, communication. Talking, finding out about each other’s LL; and filling their tank their way. And of course, that being reciprocated.
Glad to hear Dad’s on the mend. Have a great Sunday.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
It’s hurts to see her act normal interacting with other people …..
I just want to chime in on that one . It’s a complete facade. I got a phone call from H few weeks ago . Before I pulled way back . Normal conversation . Good morning and what not . I asked how his day was . To my shock . He opened wide up . H said I’m a mess emotionally and sobbing. No one knows the real me . They see this happy person . This fun loving co worker . They would never even know nor will I even tell them the extent .
A year ago H would have never communicated that at all . Would have blamed me and said I’m great with everyone else but not when I’m with you . The same as your W . Cold shoulder. Inadequate and the reason for her misery . The emotional mess actually wasn’t even about our M but his chronic illness beginning to flare up again .
It takes a very long time and sometimes it never happens for them to separate it . Real life happiness and security vs casual happiness and friendship .
It’s hurtful . I know this feeling all too well . Take a different perspective on it .
Time passes in Limbo land, and it passes quickly. Life is so busy at the moment.
W is away at the holiday home with kids and MIL again this weekend. I'm left at home working, GALing and processing.
I've seen a slight change in her. She's asking for things again. Just small things like getting the picnic table out of the shed where it was stored for the winter. I did this because I was about to do it anyway. She also asked about taking the children's stair gates down, also something I mentioned I would do soon so I will.
These aren't the type of things you'd ask for if you were moving out soon.
On the flip side, still no effort to connect. Some small little things around the house show that I'm still in her thoughts, food she has bought or offers of a coffee or sandwich.
We had mothers day here last weekend so I took the kids shopping to get her a gift. We made her breakfast in bed and I cooked a nice dinner. No grand gestures. She thanked me for the effort.
I still change my mind several times per day between ending things myself and sticking it out. But I know I wouldn't end things without giving it one last chance effort, should that effort just be more DB?
My IC talks a lot about trying to connect, add a bit of romance, but also being authentic, and relaxed and not taking things too personally. It all makes sense at the time but then I get out, remember where we are, what has been done and I realise that being authentic means not flirting and chasing. It's strange because I am still really physically attracted to her. But the way she is behaving towards me isn't attractive and I can't see past that. I actually see this as really healthy and a sign of growth in myself.
My Ws brother who is one year younger than her, also has a hard time keeping his life on track. He has a 'grass is greener' attitude to most things. They were both very young when their parents divorced and it really seems to have left a terrible mark on both of them. I don't want that for my little ones.
I set down a big wake up call around infidelity and W responded. Should I do the same (gently) around avoidance since this will be just as destructive to the marriage? I'm mindful of one of Sandi's posts about treating a WW with a bit of tough love to avoid getting stuck in this exact situation.
I've started listen to The Art of Seduction. Really interesting. I'll comment more when I've finished but I am wondering if my sitch needs to be thought of in terms of a grand seduction. Should seduction ever leave a marriage? Only in this case it's much more than just getting her into bed...
Last edited by DnJ; 04/06/2501:41 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
These aren't the type of things you'd ask for if you were moving out soon.
That’s a rational surmising. Remember, W is more acting upon emotions, non-rational ideas.
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
On the flip side, still no effort to connect. Some small little things around the house show that I'm still in her thoughts, food she has bought or offers of a coffee or sandwich.
BD was only months ago. This takes time. W is still working through her feelings, and therefore has little bandwidth for anyone or anything else. Be patient. Her small gestures and pleasant requests/conversations are a positive, IMO.
Keep doing what you’re doing. Remain pressure-free. Very important pressure-free. No, or limited, R-talks. Plenty of time and space for her to figure her mess out.
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
We had mothers day here last weekend so I took the kids shopping to get her a gift. We made her breakfast in bed and I cooked a nice dinner. No grand gestures. She thanked me for the effort.
Nicely done.
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
I still change my mind several times per day between ending things myself and sticking it out. But I know I wouldn't end things without giving it one last chance effort, should that effort just be more DB?
DB is figuring out how you are going to live. Authentically. Sincerely. Rationally.
This daily flipping and flopping about staying or ending the marriage, ask yourself what is driving it? Seriously look. It’s likely emotionally driven. Your feelings bouncing about.
Rationally, intellectually, you have reasons for remaining married and working towards that goal.
IMHO, you are not at the point of only giving it one last chance. (Lots of avenues to explore before that point.) Sure, it may feel like it, but rationally you have time. That gift of time. Use it well. Use it wisely.
It’s only months since BD, dig for patience. Embrace limbo. There are positive steps being made by W. Give it time to see how it plays out.
You are making positive progress too. Give yourself time to figure that out. And of course, time for W to actually see, notice, and believe this new and improved Dynamiq2.0.
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
My IC talks a lot about trying to connect, add a bit of romance, but also being authentic, and relaxed and not taking things too personally. It all makes sense at the time but then I get out, remember where we are, what has been done and I realise that being authentic means not flirting and chasing. It's strange because I am still really physically attracted to her. But the way she is behaving towards me isn't attractive and I can't see past that. I actually see this as really healthy and a sign of growth in myself.
I’d figure your IC hears and knows much more of your situation than you share here. (That’s proper by the way. Anonymity and all.) Go slow. Be true. Be rational. Find your convictions and follow those. (Emotions flit, beliefs are much better headings. And beliefs usually have an high degree of intellectual/rational basis to them as well.)
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
My Ws brother who is one year younger than her, also has a hard time keeping his life on track. He has a 'grass is greener' attitude to most things. They were both very young when their parents divorced and it really seems to have left a terrible mark on both of them. I don't want that for my little ones.
My XW’s brother followed a similar path as she did. He blew up his marriage, lost custody, loads of destruction. Seems their parents/family and the dynamics thereof left similar marks upon both of them.
Divorce, a broken family, etc: I do not think, I do not believe, that that in and of itself, carves some fate in stone. One strong stable parent can/does make a difference.
Authentic, sincere, honest, open, moral, etc. Walk a righteous path, be an example with conviction, gently steer, and so on. Kids watch. Kids will mimic, and therefore learn to be from the example(s) they are exposed to.
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
I set down a big wake up call around infidelity and W responded. Should I do the same (gently) around avoidance since this will be just as destructive to the marriage? I'm mindful of one of Sandi's posts about treating a WW with a bit of tough love to avoid getting stuck in this exact situation.
Go slow.
The wake up call around infidelity is more a boundary. Do this, and I will do this.
Would a boundary type thing work for bringing someone out of their avoidant shell? Likely not.
Gentle and going slow with encouragement and ensuring she feels safe and non-judged may yield better results. It’s going to time and purposeful effort. The big thing, she needs to want it. Is she seeing an IC?
Remember, you are in the roll, and want the roll of husband, not IC. Do not try to fix her. Encourage whatever positive efforts she makes towards fixing herself. And only a little bit, treat it like salt, too much and it ruins the steak. Or salt in a wound, if that metaphor is more apt. Whatever, small sincere doses.
Hope you have a great Sunday.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
This daily flipping and flopping about staying or ending the marriage, ask yourself what is driving it? Seriously look. It’s likely emotionally driven. Your feelings bouncing about.
I think it is the intellectual side that would take me out of the marriage. The knowledge that the woman I will spend the rest of my life with would not treat me like this and that for my own mental health and self respect I should make room for something better. That I should accept this is who my wife is now and I see no desire from her to change. That I likely have more of the same to look forward to through all the coming years of menopause, family passing away and whatever else awaits us. This is just her way of dealing with things. That I might be wasting some of my best years.
On the flip side I know how difficult and damaging divorce will be for us all.
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The big thing, she needs to want it. Is she seeing an IC?
No. She did for a while (although I have suspicions that she wasn't going all the times she said she was). She hasn't gone back to IC in over 3 months.
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Remember, you are in the roll, and want the roll of husband, not IC. Do not try to fix her.
I have very deliberately avoided trying to fix, or openly diagnose her. I might have researched and theorised a lot to figure out and understand what is going on it but I'm not telling/teaching her anything. I can use it to dismantle some of the unhealthy patterns on my side of the M but that is all.
I want to be careful with this question because I now know my default pattern is to think i'm not good enough, give more, sacrifice more - nice guy stuff. I don't want to continue with all that. Not just because it isn't attractive, it also wasn't helping my happiness and self-esteem.
W said at BD she can't fault me. I think I'm too squeaky clean - trying too hard to be perfect but at the same time lost sight of my purpose, vision, mission. Got lost in the weeds of day to day parenting, cleaning the house etc. W needs help with all that too - I know this - but not at the expense of mission, drive and purpose. I got a bit lost in 'fixing' W's stress and gaining her approval.
We became a bit fused, enmeshed, however you want to say it. Not enough polarity. I need to get my mojo back and I have to a large extent.
I got myself into a scarcity mindset I think. Which was partly good - I'm disciplined with money and treats, healthy food, exercise and stuff. I'm more stoic, W is more hedonistic. So while I can find joy in the smaller everyday moments, having a good routine, being present with the kids and stuff, W needs more novelty, romance and distraction (probably a lot of women are like this). I'm tapping into my abundance mindset more and more.
A big thing for W is criticism, she doesn't handle it well and even takes normal feedback or observations as personal criticism sometimes. I've known this for a long time (without realising it was closely related to avoidants) and it led me to bite my tongue so many times (but with a bit of resentment building up in me). I no longer criticise at all - just praise and gratitude or STFU. Reading Way of the Superior Man has helped me change my mindset on this.
I know W has complained to in-laws more than she did to me. Maybe I should get them to make a list of all complaints they heard and see if there is anything else there that realistically needs changing?
I also think there is an element of overproviding. I always thought this was me being a good dad and husband but perhaps with W leaning towards avoidant, me providing things can be seen as pressure. Like she's indebted to me, relies on me or I'm expecting her to repay it with love. It's a threat to her independence.
Also it's maybe a bit of golden cage syndrome, not that we are really wealthy but we probably have a higher quality of life than W grew up with and a lot of that is down to me. Example - when she realised I paid the full yearly amount for the holiday home she looked at me like I took a dump on the doorstep, not like I had done something good and that should be appreciated. I wasn't asking for appreciation - I was proud to do this for my family, but some appreciation would be nice.
I'm more spontaneous. W likes things to be planned. I wasn't planning things in advance enough, getting the babysitters organised, taking care of all the little details. No date nights now so I don't know how to rectify this - perhaps more elaborate and planned family days out?
All this is probably good news - it means I can be a bit more selfish. A bit more free. As long as I am more targetted and deliberate with the quality time I do spend in my relationships, I just need to focus more GALing outside the R. Be more the main character in my own life!
I really don't want to get caught up in taking all the fault. I see a lot online of this attitude that if the H cheats he a POS, if the W cheats it must be because H is a POS. I don't buy it. BUT I do like to have agency and responsibility for my own life and my destiny in my own hands.
I'm not sure if you are asking just Boat but I'm going to chime in here with some heavy 2x4s. My guess is you will continue to dodge my comments. Based on your words - you seem to see women as less than. You certainly have assigned assumptions, roles, and responsibilities to them. No?
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
Got lost in the weeds of day to day parenting, cleaning the house etc. W needs help with all that too - I know this - but not at the expense of mission, drive and purpose. I got a bit lost in 'fixing' W's stress and gaining her approval.
There it is again... the word "help" in regards to parenting and cleaning of the house. You both work. This is a responsibility you SHARE. It's also not her place to take on more of the load so you can make sure you don't lose your purpose and drive. You can certainly ask for her support but you need to figure out the balance without putting MORE on her.
The sooner you can cut the word "help"- the better. It could drastically effect your mindset. How? It takes responsibility and blame from your wife and puts you in charge of your own story.
"I need to figure out how to raise my children and still have a purpose outside of them".
See how that's not about your wife at all??
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
I got myself into a scarcity mindset I think. Which was partly good - I'm disciplined with money and treats, healthy food, exercise and stuff. I'm more stoic, W is more hedonistic. So while I can find joy in the smaller everyday moments, having a good routine, being present with the kids and stuff, W needs more novelty, romance and distraction (probably a lot of women are like this). I'm tapping into my abundance mindset more and more.
"Alot of women are probably like this". Assumption. Let's replace that with education. People are attracted to their opposites. Doesn't matter the gender or if its a homo or hetero relationship. We look for things that we don't possess. It's rare that you will find two frugal people in a relationship. Most of the time you have the squirrel and the spender. The spender helps the squirrel splurge. The squirrel helps the spender save. It's a balance but both parties are attracted to what they wish they could be more of.
Also - have you read the 5 love languages? Not all women like gifts. And seriously WTH with the saying that women like distractions. Um - have you seen the crisis men are having with video games? Any one can be victim to spending too much time unfocused and avoidant from their lives.
So the real questions are: How much did you participate in balancing out and embracing those differences between you two? And what is your wife's love language and have you been loving her in the way that fills her cup?
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
A big thing for W is criticism, she doesn't handle it well and even takes normal feedback or observations as personal criticism sometimes. I've known this for a long time (without realising it was closely related to avoidants) and it led me to bite my tongue so many times (but with a bit of resentment building up in me). I no longer criticise at all - just praise and gratitude or STFU. Reading Way of the Superior Man has helped me change my mindset on this.
I'm not surprised that your wife doesn't like your criticism. Especially when you have expressed to us that you think your way is better and more efficient. I'm sure that comes across in your critique.
Not liking criticism doesn't make someone avoidant. It makes her human. Have you heard of the Gottman's 4 Horsemen? Criticism is on the list.
Perhaps the work is on figuring out why you build resentment whenever you don't get to tell your wife what she is doing wrong? Or when she doesn't do it YOUR way.
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
I know W has complained to in-laws more than she did to me. Maybe I should get them to make a list of all complaints they heard and see if there is anything else there that realistically needs changing?.
Ugh... this is a lazy response. And also a big problem because it means you aren't spending the time being in tune with your wife. Listening to her verbal and non verbal cues.
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
I really don't want to get caught up in taking all the fault. I see a lot online of this attitude that if the H cheats he a POS, if the W cheats it must be because H is a POS. I don't buy it. BUT I do like to have agency and responsibility for my own life and my destiny in my own hands.
Um. Truth bomb. You haven't really taken any fault. Your stance has been and continues to be "I'm too much of a nice guy - that's my problem"
Personally - I don't see that. Alot of nice guys who have come to this board don't actually know they are one. They think they are just being super loving and kind and then we have to reel them back in. They are pushovers.
You seem nice and then when you don't get the reaction you want - you get upset.
Originally Posted by Dynamiq
Also it's maybe a bit of golden cage syndrome, not that we are really wealthy but we probably have a higher quality of life than W grew up with and a lot of that is down to me. Example - when she realised I paid the full yearly amount for the holiday home she looked at me like I took a dump on the doorstep, not like I had done something good and that should be appreciated. I wasn't asking for appreciation - I was proud to do this for my family, but some appreciation would be nice.
Look... I had a very successful career. I made most of the money. I credit alot of that - to my partner. She encouraged me to take career chances. Let me know it was going to be okay and not to worry. She picked up around the house extra when I had to put in long hours for that promotion. She used to drive me to work when I was tired. It was a TEAM effort.
So either - you are saying your wife wasn't a teammate - or you haven't learn to appreciate what she truly brings to the table.
Also stop trying to be nice if you are looking for appreciate. That's called manipulation.
Finally and this was the part I was going to put on Grok's page to his response.
Affairs are often symptoms of the breakdown of a marriage. There is a disconnect created and rather than address it - it grows and then people look outside of the marriage what they should have been getting inside of it. Sometimes - people look for things that their spouse, no matter hard they try, can't fulfill. Other times - the spouse totally can provide that need but chooses not to because of their own reasons and trauma.
Whatever the reason - it's clearly not a healthy coping mechanism and I don't agree it should ever be an acceptable avenue to take.
However life is not black and white - and so both can exist. It can be a wrong choice - and it can be understood the reasoning behind it. People think acceptance is saying it's okay. Not true - but denying their reason isn't gonna help either.
Since this is a pro-marriage site - your job is to see what's true in regards to your own marriage and then do your best to clean your side of the fence.
I'm just not seeing that from you Dyna. Perhaps it's in the way you express yourself. Perhaps it's the words you use.
But all I'm getting from you is anger, a need to be right, and that your biggest problem is that you are "too good". None of this will help save your marriage. None of this will help save you.
You need to dig deeper.
M(f): 40 D'ed: 8/12
Show empathy when there's pain. Show grace when warranted. Kindness in the midst of anger. Faith in the face of fear.
I won't answer everything. As usual, your post has a lot to be digested and thought about.
I guess this is my place to vent. I know it seems a bit negative sometimes. I defend W and talk her up to people we know but as you can see, I still have some resentment that is hard to drop, it comes out here where it's anonymous.
The form factor here doesn't really allow for the full picture either. It's a shame we can't sit and talk for a couple of hours but that's what IC is for. Maybe I should take longer over my posts but time is short these days, and because of that I appreciate you and others posting back.
I've read 5LL, it was one of the first books I got after BD. I think wifes LLs are gifts actually, she was always great at leaving little gifts and notes and cards. Words of affirmation too - this is one I could do better on, and so much comes down to the way things are said as well. I'll read it again now I'm in a different place emotionally.
I can't really sit down with W at the moment and go through the LL questionnaire though - not very DB.
I know not all women are the same. My wife is a great woman which is why i married her. There are lots of other women with very different personalities who i wouldnt be attracted to. Myself and W took personality tests for fun once and we came up exactly opposite. This actually worried W but I liked the differences. Opposites attract like you say. But there are differences, on average, between men and women. A lot of what I read about these can be applied to my sitch. I take what I think applies and disregard what doesn't.
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Also stop trying to be nice if you are looking for appreciate. That's called manipulation
This. The covert contract. At the heart of nice guy syndrome. And a difficult habit to drop - it comes from learned childhood patterns. IF I do this THEN I'll get the love I seek. It leads one to give more of oneself away over the course of a relationship thinking you'll eventually get the love youre missing. I've been guilty of this.
The talk of mission, purpose. That is how to get away from the manipulation. Fill your own cup, build your own life, love yourself then you have more love to give to others amd you dont need as much coming back. I'm seeing this work for me. This is a huge part of the reason I can drop the criticism, drop the resentment (im getting there - an affair builds some resentment that is hard to drop). I'm still parenting as much, I'm still doing chores as much but I'm not letting them be an excuse not to live those other parts of my life.
I'm working under the advice that now is not the time for R talks or gifts or nice words. Now is the time to be the most attractive, strong, confident version of me. Someone you wouldn't leave. This is why I'm talking more about mission, purpose and mojo. If there comes a time for reconciliation then you'll likely find me on here talking about LLs etc.
I dont think I'm lazy or that im not looking inward. I've read a lot. This site, books, audio books, I'm taking the stuff that resonates the most. I think it is DB. Maybe just not what you are expecting?
I get what you are asking me to do. I'm not saying I've found all the answers yet but I am looking inward. I am levelling up. Am I more me-focused than W-focused at the moment? Yes I'd have to admit that.
I had lots of fun, a couple of days at holiday home with W, kids and in-laws. I organised an easter egg hunt at a friends party for a group of kids and had a great time. The host of the party said to me in reference to W that I have 'the patience of Job'. I didn't react or respond or ask her to elaborate but I've been thinking about that comment a lot. I assumed not much of our sitch was common knowledge outside us and in-laws but perhaps the in-laws have talked to others or maybe it's just obvious that we aren't acting the way we normally did.
I don't feel very patient, as you can tell from my posts, even if I act as if I am.
I got the kids an easter egg to give to W, a few days later they reciprocated with something that W had bought for them to give. This was a nice moment but I'll highlight it because something that I have changed is communication through the kids. So what I used to say for example, "Kids, tell mummy thank you for that lovely dinner." Now I just directly thank her for the lovely dinner. An easy habit to fall into when you spend so much time around the children and you are trying to teach them how to behave. Instead now I aim to just show by example.
But is this more of the same now? I can't just buy my wife a gift? I get it. Too much pressure...
Originally Posted by Valeska19
My guess is you will continue to dodge my comments.
I didn't think I was Val. I look forward to your comments. I thought about nothing else for two days after your last post. I've also been thinking a lot about how I post on here and it hasn't been representative of the positive way I live my life.
I thought a lot about the stages of grief. Wondering what depression what look like. I've caught myself on social media a lot over the last few weeks. Not good. Scrolling instead of living. A lot of the content the algorithms are sending me at the moment isn't good for a positive mindset either. I need to do better.
It's really hard being a mum and working. We talked about the possibility of her taking time off work to be a SAHM but she didn't want that and we went the childcare route but the stress of it all was probably the trigger for her crisis. Several times I pushed my wife to take more downtime but she puts too much pressure on herself, sees it as failure or selfish. Her avoidant tendencies getting the better of her. Not letting her regulate when she needs to and then stress builds up until one day it has to be released. Burnout. Difficult to see it with my wife because she always puts on such a strong facade. As much as I do, it won't be enough because I think she see's it a pressure for her to do more rather than an opportunity for her to relax. Competition rather than teamwork. This is where I need to communicate more and better.
When I talk about drive and purpose, its not about going and doing my own thing, it's about improving our home and creating a beautiful, functional environment for my family to live in. Improving our lives. With the young kids I've been spending much more time parenting and doing chores which I don't mind at all. But I have been guilty of using it as an excuse to procrastinate on other things I'd like to do. Then when I'm talking about plans with friends or family and they say "of course you don't have time at the moment" then W hears this and sees it as pressure. At least this is what I think.
Meanwhile I was being a fixer not being her supporter, cheerleader etc.
W never communicates any of this. It's just what I can figure out. I've had to retrace and piece it all together. There's more but I don't have time now.
Val, I agree with your comments on affairs. It's not how it should be but it is how it is. I know because I've lived it.
I'll distill your nuance into more black and white language. If your spouse/partner isn't happy with their life then they might have an affair. They might have other coping mechanisms but affairs seem to be a pretty common one. Good. So, now what to do about it?
Perhaps the work is on figuring out why you build resentment whenever you don't get to tell your wife what she is doing wrong? Or when she doesn't do it YOUR way.
I forgot to address this one. It wasnt resentment about not being able to criticise. It was resentment about not feeling able to have conversations about honestly fairly benign household issues because I knew it would be received as a personal attack. I didn't have the communication skills to bring these things up in the right way so i didnt and we rarely ever fought. Really some healthy conflict would have been good for us but it wasnt within our skill set. I see this in so many threads here where the couple would rarely fight until it hits the fan.
Perhaps the work is on figuring out why you build resentment whenever you don't get to tell your wife what she is doing wrong? Or when she doesn't do it YOUR way.
I forgot to address this one. It wasnt resentment about not being able to criticise. It was resentment about not feeling able to have conversations about honestly fairly benign household issues because I knew it would be received as a personal attack. I didn't have the communication skills to bring these things up in the right way so i didnt and we rarely ever fought. Really some healthy conflict would have been good for us but it wasnt within our skill set. I see this in so many threads here where the couple would rarely fight until it hits the fan.
Perhaps the work is on figuring out why you build resentment whenever you don't get to tell your wife what she is doing wrong? Or when she doesn't do it YOUR way.
I forgot to address this one. It wasnt resentment about not being able to criticise. It was resentment about not feeling able to have conversations about honestly fairly benign household issues because I knew it would be received as a personal attack. I didn't have the communication skills to bring these things up in the right way so i didnt and we rarely ever fought. Really some healthy conflict would have been good for us but it wasnt within our skill set. I see this in so many threads here where the couple would rarely fight until it hits the fan.
