What can I do differently?

[MamaG]

Checking in with my DB family...

D invited H to the house because she wanted a couple things done that she/I couldn't do. H is desperate to win D over and therefore, came right over after work. H took care of the 2 items and then...

H: Asked me if I needed anything else done at the house.

MG: I reminded H that I didn't call upon him so NO, I don't have anything that needs to be tended to.

H: Reiterated that if I need anything done to just call him.

MG: I will not call you. You know what needs to be done around here just as I do, so I will not call you.

H: insisted that I call him for anything (H's face was surprised and disappointed with my stance to not call upon him. It was almost like H had noticed that I don't call but didn't realize it was deliberate.)

MG: repeated, No, I won't call you.

H: Asks what I have in mind that H should know needs to be done.

MG: I reminded him that 3 weeks ago, H was going to fix a water issue for which I bought parts for.

H: Immediately remembered that he had committed to that and said that he'd come by tonight.

MG: I told H that there is no rush and if work ties him down, it's ok to not come.

Later, I was in backyard and H and D were in the garage. D told him to stop taking things from the house, especially in a secretive way. (H placed yard games from the garage in his truck quickly to not be caught.) D noticed and was super offended and told H that the games aren't his and that H should ask to take them. H broke out in an immediate temper, threw something into the truck (tantrum) and stormed off saying, "I don't need permission to take my things." And, off H went. I haven't heard from H today....likely not coming and that's ok by me. What sparked the tantrum? Shame? Guilt? Anger?

I explained to D that H is a teenager and teenagers do things secretively and rebel selfishly, and behaving with no regard for others. D told me that she didn't do that as a teenager and I agreed but reminded her that her friends did. (D and S were not typical teenagers - thankfully.)

It was clear to me that H's visit yesterday was intended to win D over but quickly realized that H wasn't as impactful as H had thought. Rather, H dug a bigger wedge between the two of them. Hopefully H knows and remembers it.

While here, lawn service came by to mow. H was curious, jumped out of his seat and straight to a window bending over backwards to see who was mowing. Both D and I noticed his behavior. On his way out, H said, well, I guess I'll go mow my lawn now....almost wishing someone would mow his. I don't know. For a second, I thought H was realizing that I'm getting around just fine without him and that upset him. But then I wondered if me getting stuff done without him relieved pressure. Not sure which it is but I can tell you that I haven't seen H move so quickly nor H's curiosity peak so vividly like yesterday.

This brings me to what I'd call a boundary....not sure what you'll make of it. H comes and goes around here very comfortably. Opens garage door with his opener, parks in garage and comes right in like H is still at home. To date, I've only asked that H let me know in advance so I'm not spooked. Clearly, I've let him feel at home. Do I need to stop this and change the locks? That would reduce his visits and let him know this isn't H's home anymore to shop in....Thoughts? Am I reacting out of anger from yesterday? I know that I don't like him coming by to take things. It leaves me a reminder that H is still moving out and not looking to move in. (It's not about what H is taking. It's about the reminder of H's wish to not be here anymore.) H finds reasons to come by and may be enjoying my body language of disappointed when H snags things - can't wait to control it! Not to mention that H coming by to get something is beginning to feel like manipulation.

I've also considered packing up H's things and putting them in basement - that way, H knows what pile he can shop in...the rest are marital assets.

As much as I want to give him enough time and space for him to choke on, I don't see H allowing it. His clingy boomerang style is unnerving. Yet, I've learned that clingy boomerang is likely to come home so should I be celebrating or do I need to cut him off?

[Catman19]

I can relate to this situation somewhat. When mynl stbxw was separated from me, by her choice and she was seeing AP, she would come by to get mail but would use the opportunity to take things that belonged to both of us. At first I let her take a couple of things but then it became crystal clear to me she wanted the convenience of our things in her new lifestyle and to make herself feel as comfortable as possible in her fantasy life with AP who later it didn't work out with. After a couple of times I put a stop to it and said if you want to come by here to get things and you don't want to deal with selling our home or working on our marriage, I won't put up with it. It was as if she was trying to have her cake and eat it too. And she used it as an excuse to see me and get affection from me, while she was triangulating me with AP. Yes the behavior was extremely childish and rebellious and anything you say to them that doesn't sit well with them is seen as a personal attack. I too like you took care of the home and kept it absolutely spotless and it bothered her that I clearly didn't appear to need her in any form whatsoever.

Keep doing what you are doing and don't allow him the privilege of using your house like a saloon door.

May I suggest getting a smart doorbell camera, tell him it's for your security but use it to see if he's taking advantage of coming to the home when he's not giving you advanced notice. Just seeing the doorbell camera hell get the message loud and clear. Let your daughter interact with him as she wishes but support her as much as you can. Don't give him any reason to blame you for that relationship. They will blame you for everything and anything to avoid self reflection.

[DnJ]

Good Morning MG

For a second, I thought H was realizing that I'm getting around just fine without him and that upset him. But then I wondered if me getting stuff done without him relieved pressure. Not sure which it is

Likely both.

but I can tell you that I haven't seen H move so quickly nor H's curiosity peak so vividly like yesterday.

Good. Let him be curious. Let him feel it. You are managing, nay thriving just fine without him.

This brings me to what I'd call a boundary....not sure what you'll make of it. H comes and goes around here very comfortably. Opens garage door with his opener, parks in garage and comes right in like H is still at home. To date, I've only asked that H let me know in advance so I'm not spooked. Clearly, I've let him feel at home. Do I need to stop this and change the locks? That would reduce his visits and let him know this isn't H's home anymore to shop in....Thoughts? Am I reacting out of anger from yesterday? I know that I don't like him coming by to take things. It leaves me a reminder that H is still moving out and not looking to move in. (It's not about what H is taking. It's about the reminder of H's wish to not be here anymore.) H finds reasons to come by and may be enjoying my body language of disappointed when H snags things - can't wait to control it! Not to mention that H coming by to get something is beginning to feel like manipulation.

You likely legally cannot change the locks; joint ownership and all.

I like how you are wisely considering this event and your actions going forward, instead of reacting. And yes, there is likely some residual anger from yesterday’s interaction with H. The ol’ 24-48 hour guideline comes in handy for letting out emotions subside. Things look and feel different after a couple of days.

You can only control you, not H and his coming and going.

A doorbell camera is a good idea. Just knowing he is being recorded might even be enough to lessen his shopping trips.

I’d going around the house and take a video or pictures of your inventory. The you’ll have a time stamped snapshot of what belongings are/were there. It also will help with potential he said/she said problems later.

Coupled with that, let H know you cataloged the household assets. Your’s, his, and martial. Tell him, he is free to take his stuff. You might even consider getting it all piled up like you mentioned. Maybe even promote getting his stuff out of your living space. As in, time to move your stuff into your house H.

I’d follow that up with, he is not free to take martial assets. These are joint ownership and need to be accounted for. If he would like an item, he can propose acquiring it. If you are agreeable, said item will be listed, in writing, as being transferred to H’s house. It’s your house, not a shopping center!

It’s the business side of things.

Keep track of stuff. Document. Document. Document. Maybe, hopefully, you won’t need it. However, better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

As much as I want to give him enough time and space for him to choke on, I don't see H allowing it. His clingy boomerang style is unnerving. Yet, I've learned that clingy boomerang is likely to come home so should I be celebrating or do I need to cut him off?

It’s pretty wild. The Jekyll/Hide like shifts in personalities, the flying away and circling back, running away and yet not too far, the teenager attitude and behaviours, the rebelliousness, the indignation when called out, the lack of responsibility, the gnat-like memory, and so on.

Time and space is you allowing/giving H plenty of both to feel his feelings. That’s remaining nonjudgemental, kind and cordial. Focusing on you, and letting him go. Giving H all the rope he wants.

It’s also, enforcing and maintaining rock solid boundaries. Treating the business stuff businesslike. Which feeds into H’s rebellious side. He needs to grow up, and part of that is smashing against boundaries, rules, society, etc.

It’s like speeding tickets, Some folks blame the cops their entire life, never learning, never growing up. Of course, it’s they who pressed their foot down on the accelerator pedal. No one’s fault but their own. Shrug.

Hold H accountable, while remaining compassionate and forgiving.

There is no crystal ball in all this. Best you can do is live your values. Regardless of how this all ends up, you can hold your head high, for you will have done the best you could.

D

[MamaG]

Thank you Mach1 and Grok for suggesting readings while I sit and recover. This alone time is really difficult and some of the readings take my thoughts down rabbit holes. I've gone from 'how do I tell H to start the D process?" to "Am I letting him get away with cheating, lies, manipulation, etc." to "How to I make a different effort by using Laura Doyle's 6 intimacy tactics?" It's been a whirlwind and I can't wait to be able to get up and GAL....although I wonder if I'm just pretending and pushing all my feelings aside. Certainly, feelings have been running fast and furious over here while I am bedridden.

Still don't know that there is a PA. And, yes, this thought haunts me daily especially as I lie here through recovery which confirms that an affair may be what separates me from holding on.

As I read through a thread that illustrated the guys perspective of how the W is condoning the cheating and feeling bad for all their hurt, while mourning the loss of the marriage and H - the message was that W shouldn't do this. This made me question the recommended approach to DB. I realize that I need to focus on me but does that mean ignore H? The thread from a guys point of view clearly stated that W should be looking at how W contributed to the marriage's breakdown instead of condoning. I did some reflecting on my contributions and understand that only I can change those for me (and maybe for H if H (we) choose). Bc H reaches out so much, where's the harm in talking about how I've contributed and that I'm working on those issues? If that's too much all at once, what's the harm in engaging in convo when H reaches out? Sometimes I wonder if H wants to hold a lengthy convo but doesn't know how to get started.

I believe the thread is called Happy again's old posts - posted by goodattitudegirl (2010)

That said, I believe that chasing H is not the right approach. I just don't feel right condoning H's behavior. After all, H left the marital home and is living life without many responsibilities, while running up expenses. Because H is a clingy boomerang, what can i do differently with the outreaches? Is H looking for me to engage? Am I missing out on opportunities to be friends and heal our M?

H checks in daily on my recovery but isn't involved in the caregiving nor offering. Clearly something is off - H would never be so cold about major surgery. Still get daily texts on my healing.
Yesterday, H's text was concerned in how I was feeling and if I was having bowel movements. At the end, H recommended that I cut back on the pain meds (not having any idea how many I'm taking or not taking). I responded with "Good idea". If you know me, that response was dismissive. Not sure that H picked up on it. Who is this man?

I guess I'm not convinced that time and space are the answer. Will H ever choke on there abundance if H continues to reach out? H hasn't asked for space in some time - of course H doesn't have to bc it's been granted. How do I know that space is still what H wants/needs?

Maybe I'm getting impatient. Maybe I'm not interested in waiting around as time passes us by. Maybe I realize that a PA would crush me and it would require additional reflection and consideration that I'm not willing to consider (right now). Clearly, I need to hurry up and recover so I can get out of my head!

Happy Memorial Day all!

[MamaG]

Throughout my readings, I came across this paragraph and would love for folks to weigh in on the part about MLCer having energy and goals. As you know, I’m still trying to figure out if H is going through MLC or something else. Since BD, depression has been very much present in H. It was severe depression between September and December 2023. It has ebbed and flowed since then. Then again, H doesn’t live at home so it’s hard to know if it has subsided. I remember in February mentioning that he is less depressed and he corrected me to say that he is still very depressed. H admits and has consistently admitted that he is very depressed and that depression is impacting him. I’ve read that most MLCers deny being depressed. What do you make of this with my situation?

“Lots of good info job. I can tell you that when i went through my stich i fell into a deep depression. Lost 50lbs, couldnt sleep, think or enjoy the many things that i love doing. The most painful and horrible feelings ever in my life. My energy levels were zero. I think that is the difference. An Mlcer has energy and goals. A trully depressed person does not. They maybe confused, afraid , and maybe sad. But i dont believe they are depressed. Some mlcer may be trully depressed but not all. The way i understand depression is that we are predisposed and it is self induced based on many variables. It is a disorder of thoughts and perceptions.

I think the mlcer behaves in ways that justify and reinforce their actions.”

[Catman19]

Depression is real, whether you are MLCer or betrayed spouse, whether it's shown, indicated, displayed or not. The difference being how we cope with it. The mlc or walkaway don't know how to confront things and they cope with temporary dopamine hits hoping it solves their problems, they blame their spouse for what they are feeling and think there's a magic bullet to fix it, they build up bitterness and resentment to what they perceive is the cause. How it turns out for them has a lot to do with how they confront it, who they surround themselves with, how willing they are to self reflect, they are afraid of being alone, afraid of missing out on something, afraid of growing older, afraid of mortality, afraid of responsibility. The betrayed feel the depression from being deeply hurt, questioning their self worth, their own value, questioning their own actions, asking themselves what they could have done differently.

Whether you are on one side or another, sitting with the thoughts and rumination of the feelings tends to make things worse, self reflecting and making life changes is so key, it's the only way to get over the mental obstacles. Overcoming the feelings takes tremendous work, one of the biggest things is staying active, working on health both mental and physical. No objects or shiny things can fix us, we become human and at our core is our identity, we value our health and well being more and work on those things because it makes us better spiritually.

A good therapist, good, supportive family and friends makes a massive difference, we are social beings and find comfort in these things more than any material object or temporary infatuation relationship.
To me this is where God and faith come in, we have to find the inner strength to uphold and fortify our values, what we find important to us, how we want to live our lives, how we want to love and be loved.

Your H must be living inside a tornado of his own thoughts, as I assume you are as well. Keep strong and be there for your child and be the rock in this stormy weather, be kind to yourself and those around you, but uphold your values. Pray for your spouse even though you may not want to, it brings comfort and manifests positive energy out into the world.

[Valeska19]

Throughout my readings, I came across this paragraph and would love for folks to weigh in on the part about MLCer having energy and goals. As you know, I’m still trying to figure out if H is going through MLC or something else. Since BD, depression has been very much present in H. It was severe depression between September and December 2023. It has ebbed and flowed since then. Then again, H doesn’t live at home so it’s hard to know if it has subsided. I remember in February mentioning that he is less depressed and he corrected me to say that he is still very depressed. H admits and has consistently admitted that he is very depressed and that depression is impacting him. I’ve read that most MLCers deny being depressed. What do you make of this with my situation?

Since you are asking - I'm gonna be honest with you. It really doesn't matter what it is. Whether it's depression, MLC, or just being a good ole fashion a$$, the truth is that no "answer" makes it any better. Outside of providing a guideline for what to expect in order to protect yourself, or understanding the symptoms so you can detach and depersonalize the situation; it's a cheeseless tunnel to go down. It won't bring you peace, nor will it solve the situation.

Although you are new to the board - this is not a new situation for you. Yet it looks like you are still giving him so much power. From the bleacher seats - it looks like you struggle to detach and let go.

This is normal. When we let go - there is a real chance that our loved ones... actually go. But by holding on... you are holding onto a version of the relationship that is not what you signed up for, nor is it loving or healthy. But in our minds... we convince ourselves that it is better than nothing. We protect ourselves from the pain that comes when we let go.

Only you can decide when to stop this. This does not mean stopping fighting for the marriage. Actually one of the best chances you can give yourself for your marriage to get better is to STOP the treatment that is hurting you. To take the stance and to believe you are worthy of respect, love, and a partnership that is equal.

I know it feels like a lose | lose situation. If you are block him (your kids are grown so no need to really chat that much) - you will feel the pain of being alone. The pain of losing him. But the truth is that you already have lost him. The texts are a bare minimum. A shadow of a H once was. In actuality you are still alone. The texts are not about you but about him convincing himself he's doing something. No wonder you keep getting tired and p!ssed.

I hope you will consider looking at this. It is true that we as the LBS need to see how we contributed to the demise of our marriage. From my 13 years of watching this board - those who work to be as understanding as you are trying to be... the contribution seems is that one sacrficed him/herself too much. They sacrificed the core of themselves. Needs, wants, values... and in turn betrayed who they really were designed to be.

When you self-betray yourself for so long... eventually you will breakdown... and then sometimes - you will then fight back against yourself. In the form of anger, resentment, tears... it's a part of you that is crying out to be heard. What is it trying to say?

I am truly not telling you to stop fighting. I'm re-iterating one of strongest db philosophies.

Save yourself first... And let your H figure out if he wants to save himself.

((( G )))

[mirage]

MamaG,

Sorry for delay. Been out of town for a time.

Having gone through MLC, my guess is your H is going through one. You talk about energy and goals with MLC'ers. They may seem like goals and energy from the outside but from the inside there is a total jumble of emotions going on and normally MLC'ers don't want to sleep because that is when the demons come and they cannot deal with any of that, so they distract as much as they can. My guess is your H is MLC, a total trainwreck going on inside, so any guesswork from your end is totally guesswork and doesn't achieve much other than causing you to not GAL and to not set healthy boundaries for yourself. I would say in most cases like this there is a AP. MLC'ers can talk a big game of independence but they don't jump without a net. Most MLC'ers are cowardly in that way. and I understand not wanting to believe this. If you look at my old thread I thought there was no AP. I think it was partially a defense mechanism on my part. Interesting things we do when were in pain. In my case that was enough anger to to help fuel GAL and trying in the beginning to move forward.

What I see.

You spend too much time watching what he does, how he acts and how much he reaches out. You really need to start developing your own life, your own hobbies, a life that your proud of without any body else's input. I had to do that. I had to fake it for a while.....but eventually you do see the blessings from concentrating on your life and valueing yourself enough to not be happy when a crumb or two is tossed your way by your MLC'er. I understand this is difficult. We all agree on that.

Believe me, if your H comes through MLC you will know it. You will not have to decipher clues, texts, actions etc. He will know and understand the pain he has brought forth. Doesn't mean he will reach out but his actions will change.

Mirage

[MamaG]

Honesty and 2x4s are always welcomed - sometimes I need that.

Perhaps my updates are doing myself justice. I've been GALing and detaching to the extent I can stomach. I'm getting better but have room to grow. Having been in the dark to MLC and DBing until Feb 2024, I lost a year of valuable insight on how to behave. I've only been at it for 3.5 months and I have room for improvement. And, it doesn't help that I struggle with buying into the strategies.

I struggle, like I've read in other threads with the concept of if I let go, will H miss me or further wander? Laura Doyle podcasts provide tempting solutions which contradict 'going dark' or feedback to 'provide little insight to H's inquiries'. It's not black and white to me which makes my thoughts scramble.

I may be naive and in the dark but I've looked and dug....still no evidence of a PA. I know it's rare but am hopeful that I'm an exception. Maybe I am...maybe not. Either way, I feel like H's constant outreaches affords me opportunities and the scrambling thoughts generate my posts most of the time.

Being bedridden isn't helping...

Ordered a couple books that I'll be reading - hope they'll help.
Divorce Remedy
The five love languages

Keep the strong messages coming. I can take it.

[Catman19]

Just remember something, assume there is another person in the situation. People in his situation do not like to be alone, but they also do not like losing their comfortable security blanket that is their spouse. I made the mistake that the crumbs and occasional signs of affection were genuine and a way of us maintaining that connection. In the end I became an enabler, much like others on here, I showed her there weren't any consequences for abandoning the marriage and she took that as a green light to take a no risk chance on seeing if she could find better, all while keeping me on a metaphorical leash, a backup plan in case her breaking of marriage vows didn't work out.
It was by far the biggest pre dB mistake I made. Do not fall into this trap, it will prolong your suffering and give you false hope of reconciliation. Remember, you did not break the marriage, you are not to blame for his lack of maturity, respect for you, disregarding of your feelings. You don't have to put up with that behavior. Do not make him feel like you will always be there for his convenience and his convenience alone. He has to realize and fear the possibility that you will tire of his charade and not demean yourself any further if he continues.

Like a spoilt child, the more they push and break boundaries and are met with soft resistance, the more they see it as a green light or free pass to continue to break them and feel no consequences. It's one thing to deal with this with adolescents or kids but you H is old enough to know what he is doing and he has no right to disrespect you and abuse your kindness. Make him feel like you can do better than him, make him feel like you aren't afraid of losing him, make him feel like you know your worth and you don't deserve the treatment and indignation he is subjecting you to.

I don't by any means say to look for someone, but learn to be alone and thrive.