Hey Steve - Well, my sense remains that W is still really conflicted about these things. In a prior conversation about the holidays when BD occurred, W expected I'd be here for Christmas Eve "because you're still my husband" were her words. I don't perceive she's confident divorce is the right solution. I expect the exchange didn't go how she'd like it to because 1) she wants me to be present for Christmas Eve and 2) she wants to resolve if we'll have it at our house.
From my perspective, the exchange went well. I've not given a final answer. I felt put on the spot while brushing my teeth and getting ready for work. We had all night yesterday to talk without any time constraints. I'm also not allowing any cake-eating where W gets to have both the D process moving forward and a final holiday together. I was courteous and respectful but enforcing a boundary about having adequate time to thoughtfully decide what is best for me and D13.
I don't agree. Remember, less words, more action.
It's ok not to give her a definite answer. But you allowed this conversation to delve into a negotiation.
"I'll have to think about it " And then walk away.
As far as confidence in the D on her part, remember this adage:
"When they want to come back to the marriage, you will know. When they don't, you'll be confused."
It's not that she lacks confidence in divorce, it's that you're confused about what she wants. A very common trap that LBSs fall into.
Last edited by SteveLW; 12/06/2303:57 PM.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Hi Boat - Thanks for the question. Actually, yes. W can have impulse control and emotional reactivity issues at times. The decision to explore D this time was in response to ongoing in-law issues with her and my mom. Since then, W has been waffling about D. I think W has also been testing the waters to see how it feels. With my detaching, GALing, and so forth, my opinion is that she is seeing that her issues still exist even when I'm not there to pin them on. It seems like classic MLC stuff to me with a dash of menopause thrown in to further push emotions all over the board. W has even said "I'm not sure what the right decision is" at one point.
Too much mind reading, motivation assuming, and taking her words at face value.
That's all fool's gold in these situations. "my detaching, GALing" that's what you continue to focus on. The road to a D for a WAS is long, winding, with multiple exit and entrance ramps. Trying to trace their path and guess what exits and entrances they'll take takes your focus off of GAL, detachment and focusing on yourself.
Also, all of this mind reading, assuming and taking her words at face value are proof you still have work to do on detachment.
Mr. P, things in these situations tend to get worse before they get better. Be aware of that. And also remember that you can't nice a WAS back to the MR. Many have tried and later regretted it.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
SteveLW - I see what you mean. It felt like a short interaction to me (because I had a toothbrush in my mouth LOL), probably under 60 seconds. I agree it didn't need to go on that long. I made sure to end the conversation first and leave the room. I don't fee it was a negotiation. I'm going to do what I choose, irrespective of what W wants or her logic.
Regarding her confidence in whether to D, she's been sitting on moving forward for over 3 months. Lots of MLC behavior. Acting on impulses, perhaps getting a tat, lamenting what life could've been, blaming me for our not having more kids, regularly noting she's getting more gray hairs, and more. She wants stress and obligations she attributes to me off the table. She believes life will be easier if she only has to worry about herself and only about D13 50% of the time (W has acknowledged this part about D13 - they butt heads often). W has also said she's not sure what the right thing to do is.
I offer empathy and validation while getting out of the way as much as possible. I am moving forward "as if" the D is happening. For example, I'm touring potential housing options today. I do appreciate the perspectives you're offering, Boat and Steve.
Steve - It would help me if you could give me examples of where you see me mindreading, assuming her motivations, or taking words at face value. Yes, I do wonder why W is doing or saying what she's doing at times. However, I know I also can't trust all or most of what she says or does right now. MLC is driving the bus and MLC is going to go on off-ramps, drive headlong into traffic, and might even just pull off on the side of the road to use the restroom. Who knows!
Spouses usually feel quite confident about their decision. Realize that’s feel confident, not are confident. And feelings are temporary. Of course, W will effort to reinforce those feelings and decisions and choices. Still, with time and space, other feelings do seep in.
GAL, letting go, detaching, focusing on you, and such, are all behaviours and control of you, which allows time and space.
Doubts about her choice will first be but a whisper to her. She will work to quash such doubting whispers and feelings. Baiting you into arguments, reinforcing narratives, purposefully disbelieving any positive changes you’re displaying, and so on. Doubling down or triple down on her decision, pushing those other feelings out of the way.
Emotional turmoil, especial a crisis, is driven by feelings and depression. These folks are desperate. And desperate folks do desperate things. The situation does tend to get worse before it gets better. W needs to hit rock bottom before she will likely consider altering her path. Thing is, rock bottom is individual, it is different for everyone. Where and when someone hits it is a matter of them choosing such.
The holiday season and other special times do bring these spouses out. They miss their old lives, that family time, etc. The holidays do stir some of those other feelings - guilt, loss, shame, regret, and so on - as well. Peeks back, temp checks, anchor checks, are pretty common this time of year. Let her feelings work upon her.
Time and space. Focus on you. Stay out of the line of fire. Minimize the target she is, and will be, painting upon you. Continue moving forward.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
SteveLW - I see what you mean. It felt like a short interaction to me (because I had a toothbrush in my mouth LOL), probably under 60 seconds. I agree it didn't need to go on that long. I made sure to end the conversation first and leave the room. I don't fee it was a negotiation. I'm going to do what I choose, irrespective of what W wants or her logic.
Regarding her confidence in whether to D, she's been sitting on moving forward for over 3 months. Lots of MLC behavior. Acting on impulses, perhaps getting a tat, lamenting what life could've been, blaming me for our not having more kids, regularly noting she's getting more gray hairs, and more. She wants stress and obligations she attributes to me off the table. She believes life will be easier if she only has to worry about herself and only about D13 50% of the time (W has acknowledged this part about D13 - they butt heads often). W has also said she's not sure what the right thing to do is.
I offer empathy and validation while getting out of the way as much as possible. I am moving forward "as if" the D is happening. For example, I'm touring potential housing options today. I do appreciate the perspectives you're offering, Boat and Steve.
MrP, most WASs,and WSs in particular, are horrible about follow thru. I truly believe that most WASs do not want to be the "bad guy". They drag their feet on D hoping their LBS grows weary of limbo and does the dirty work of actually filing for D.
In fact, we see on this board that a lot of the LBSs end up being the one to file. Enough time goes by, the WAS hasn't really changed. They are still out being a single person, or remaining in their affair, etc. So finally after the LBS has endured months, sometimes years of limbo, they are the ones to go file. I am a proponent on this board of setting a drop dead date. I did that in my own situation. "If she is not fully committed back to the MR by X/X/XX, then I will go file for divorce." I did that. I chose 1 year after BD. (In case you didn't know, my situation resolved and we reconciled, and are together still to this day.)
3 months is a literal drop in the limbo bucket. Remember, marathon NOT a sprint.
Originally Posted by MrP
Steve - It would help me if you could give me examples of where you see me mindreading, assuming her motivations, or taking words at face value. Yes, I do wonder why W is doing or saying what she's doing at times. However, I know I also can't trust all or most of what she says or does right now. MLC is driving the bus and MLC is going to go on off-ramps, drive headlong into traffic, and might even just pull off on the side of the road to use the restroom. Who knows!
Here:
Originally Posted by MrP
Hi Boat - Thanks for the question. Actually, yes. W can have impulse control and emotional reactivity issues at times. The decision to explore D this time was in response to ongoing in-law issues with her and my mom. Since then, W has been waffling about D. I think W has also been testing the waters to see how it feels. With my detaching, GALing, and so forth, my opinion is that she is seeing that her issues still exist even when I'm not there to pin them on. It seems like classic MLC stuff to me with a dash of menopause thrown in to further push emotions all over the board. W has even said "I'm not sure what the right decision is" at one point.
Pretty much this whole post is an example of 1, 2 and/or all 3 of those things I suggested you are doing. It is nothing to deny. We all did it early on (and yes, 3 months is early on). When you come to this site and make a post about how you are out GAL, working on your 180s, and barely or not at all mention your WAW, then you'll know are on the right path. FTR, very few get there. What usually happens is that by time the LBS gets to that this point, they stop posting. 90% of the situations here we do not know the final outcome because the poster just disappeared.
Also, you've diagnosed a MLC. Many of us do that. However, what if this is not a MLC but a permanent life change? So many LBSs put their hope in the MLC being temporary and the sad part is that most MLCs are NOT temporary. They are who the person now is. sandi famously used to say "she isn't the girl you married". The point? You have to get onboard that this may be who your wife is from here on out. LBHs in particular struggle with this. There is an old saying "Women marry a man hoping he will change. Men marry a woman hoping she won't."
What I like is that you keep posting about GAL, detachment and, I hope you mean to include, working on becoming the best version of yourself (self-improvements). That is good. However, I still see a lot of focus on her in your posts.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
DNJ - Good to hear from you. I hope you're well. I hear what you're saying regarding confidence. Perhaps I was rushing to describe it this morning. My observation is that W's confidence in her choice is wavering. Maybe it is the holidays. Maybe it is our anniversary passing. Maybe there will be a full moon tonight. My intent was just to note my observation, continue down my path, and as you say, make myself as little of a target as possible. That seems to be going well. If you've seen those workplace posters that say "0 days without an incident", that is the current mental image in my mind. I found 2-to 3 viable housing options, am attending a holiday party this Friday, and have plans to have dinner with my oldest friends in a week or two.
SteveLW - Super helpful. Thank you. This is my 2nd go-round with DBing. The first time started in 2018/2019, reconciling and piecing until a few months ago so it feels longer than just the last 3 months. I say MLC because W seems to check all those boxes over others. It is also helpful to me to try to understand what D13 and I are dealing with, even if a D goes forward. As you say, MLCs are marathons (without clear routes or mileage goals). I'm still trying to separate mind-reading and motivation assuming from diagnosing (hopefully using the best facts or judgment I have) what I'm up against while I DB so I choose better strategies (180s to do, cheeseless tunnels to avoid, etc) to follow. WAS? MLC? Depressed spouse? Passion meltdown? No infidelity signs so far and that is consistent with trauma history W endured pre-me. I expect this work will help me be a better participant in ANY relationship in the future. I am doing it to help myself be a better person and partner in general.
Boat19 - Great question. It won't change some things like the need to focus on myself, GAL, detach, and so on. Having a sense of which challenge I'm mostly up against helps me think through what is best for me. Why try slaying 4-to 5 dragons (causes for being here) when you're primarily up against one? MLCs are long hauls with no guarantee that any work one puts in will be a DB success story. However, as MWD suggests, I'd like to be able to honestly say I did within reason what was in my control and taught my D13 not to treat marriages as disposable. Each day that passes, if we do D, I feel quite good about my ability to walk away knowing I did all I could with the info I had at the time I had it. Hope that makes sense.
Sincere thanks to all three of you. I appreciate the chance to debate, receive push back, or get whacked across the head for being an unrealistic LBH. I swear I'm trying to walk the DB path as best as possible!
Mr P I can narrow it down to one dragon. Your W is no longer romantically attracted to you and can’t see a happy future with you in it. Most likely because of things that are not your fault because you don’t know what you don’t know. Now if you want to go down the MLC rabbit hole then have at it. It’s typically a long, lonely and frustrating road. Look back and be honest with yourself where you went wrong make the changes and move forward. Learn what women find attractive and slowly start to implement it.
Which is a better success story? You DB soundly and your W returns to the marriage and then bombs you again 3 years from now.
You D and learn what is attractive to women and meet somebody down the road who is absolutely amazing and life happy ever after?
