Stuck in limbo

[Doug54]

Thanks, Steve. Many words of wisdom there. I'm currently staying as busy as possible and giving the W a wide berth. Again, I'm not sure how much focus should be on the EA part (what little I know) vs the overall MLC. MWD's chapter on midlife crisis in DR touched upon several familiar happenings. Granted, the EA situation is wrong, of course, but if my goal was to avoid divorce, the MLC may be playing a larger role. W has several classic indicators of a MLC -

* unresolved childhood hurts/disappointments
* lack of career success
* feelings of nostalgia
* empty nest syndrome (second child about to leave for college, though we still have 3 at home)

There are probably others. I forgot to mention that she got a tattoo, wants a nose ring (and probably another tattoo), has widened her circle of friends and of course the breast enhancement. Yesterday she started talking about tummy tucks. All this physical improvement stuff seems to point toward MLC.

I hear you on cancelling the MC. I guess I'm curious about what path it will take. Much like what you described in your 2018 thread, things in the home aren't that bad. We're raising our kids, on civil terms and communicating, doing a few things together (though not much at all compared to the past), and having regular adult relations. I mean, aside from angry feelings that creep in at times where I wonder about the depth and scope of the EA, it's not a bad domestic existence.

An interesting note is that W views her mom as a bit of a failure who never amounted to enough in life. She's shared with me that that's why she's gotten into running distance events like half-marathons - to prove to herself that she can do things like that. Also the reason she's gunning for a more career-oriented job. None of this fits in with monkeybranching to another relationship.

I do like your inclusion of the advice from AnotherStander. I'm not trying to be too nice, but being emotionally distant played a role in landing where I am today. I probably have a situation where employing DB/GAL too far would push her further away- "Why haven't I left this guy yet? He's never around."

Anyhow, please chime in with any other advice.

[Doug54]

Thanks for your input, Traveler. I'm honestly not sure what my expectations are with the MC. I figure I'll go and listen and see which way the wind is blowing. I know that my IC recommended MC for "clarity" and W was the one who found this particular MC, off a recommendation from stepdaughter's IC.

I didn't get into a relationship talk, but I did tell the W in passing that I didn't want to get sabotaged at MC. Meaning I'm aware of a friend she has that was dead set on divorce and used MC to grease those wheels. W then told me it wouldn't be like that. We're leaving for a trip mere hours after this first MC session is to take place, so common sense should dictate not to throw unpleasant bombshells out there right before a long car drive.

[BL42]

Doug54,

Sorry you're in this situation, but man did you come to the right place.

Unfortunately your story sounds so familiar because it happened to me and countless others here. So much of what you wrote brings corresponding memories in my sitch.

Background: married almost 17 years; together for two prior to getting hitched. Wife and I have three sons (14, 8, 5) along with W's daughter (21) and son (18) from her previous marriage, whom I raised with her as my stepchildren.

Speaking of that, you say this is her second marriage, but you do not say how her first marriage ended. Can you share why her first marriage ended?

I'm also interested in the answer to SteveLW's question. You've been together 19 years but your stepchildren from her previous marriage are 18 and 21? So you got together when she had a 2yo and was pregnant (or just had a baby)?

We've had ups and downs in our marriage but never anything I imagined would have us looking at divorce.

You would not believe how many people have said that here.

W immediately rushed across the kitchen in a panic and grabbed the computer away from me, hustling off to the bedroom.

At some point thereafter (unfortunately the precise timeline eludes me) she became sneaky and like a bulldog with her phone.

if she is hiding her phone from you, if she is in the bathroom for long periods of time, etc, you can be assured that an EA is going on

The #1 indication of an affair these days is a spouse's protectiveness of their phone/electronic devices. Often times it's a dramatic shift from both spouses using each others interchangeably without any regard to one spouse setting a password and guarding their phone like a hawk.

I also noticed way later that she had stopped tagging me in Facebook family photos (something she had done religiously) the first week in December.

You may want to consider unfollowing her. Not sure you should block her at this point, because that might cause some blow back, but don't let social media impact your emotional state. I distinctly remember the night my now ExW changed her profile pic from our family to one of her and her from on a girls trip before we met. She was at work late and I had put the kids to bed by myself...again. It rocked me and set me back, even though it was silly compared to what was going on overall.

I noticed some distance forming between us in February and she barely acknowledged my birthday.

The barely acknowledged birthday happened to me as well.

Sometime in March I started getting onto her about suspicious dips into the bathroom that took way longer than they should, accusing her of texting "the guy."

Super long bathroom trips happened in my sitch as well. Also going out to the car in the garage to "talk with her girlfriends". When your spidey sense goes off, trust it.

In my mind, it's been one man consistently and I should probably assume the worst about the content.

Sorry to say this, but the content/extent of the affair is almost certainly worse than what you've discovered.

But it also became clear that she was looking for affirmation that I had been a poor husband, to get some air under her wings to perhaps leave the marriage.

The WAS/WS will seek out validation for their emotions and disregard anyone who questions their actions. My ExW stopped talking to any friend who questioned her leaving our marriage and breaking up our family, and started being besties with anyone who she had previously regarded as low character who validated and encouraged it.

I had been asking her to let me attend a session to "work on the marriage" as this counselor presumably did both IC and MC.

Drop MC. There's no way MC will help if your W wants to leave. Both of you have to be committed to working things out, and she's not at the moment.

W admitted to me after a session that she "wasn't the same person" and still loved and cared about me but didn't quite feel the same.

"I love you but I'm not in love with you." Textbook.

A few female co-workers openly advocated for me to grab W's phone out of her hands when she had it unlocked, but I viewed that as a bridge too far.

Don't grab it out of her hands. You already know she's straying.

Also...why are you talking to your coworkers about this??? Keep it private. Maybe one or two close confidants.

* W has been very attuned to her appearance for a few months, running daily, fussing about gray hair on top of her head and coloring it frequently, getting her nails done (something she never cared about before)

Textbook WAS/WS actions. How are you making yourself attractive? Time to start running and hitting the gym yourself.

having breast augmentation scheduled for December. She's spun this as a positive for me, but I'm of course leery of a D taking place at some point after this.

DO NOT FUND HER BREAT AUGMENTATION! She IS NOT doing it for you. Talk to a L.

I think the youthful appearance wannabe thing goes with a MLC, but is this always automatically linked to being on the prowl for other men and/or monkeybranching?

She could be doing it for her EA partner. Or for other men. She's not doing it for you. Regardless of the reason, it shouldn't change your actions. Focus on you.

We're starting MC next week

I'd cancel MC. "I've decided MC would be a waste of time at this point. Instead, I am just going to continue with IC to work on myself." MC in these situations rarely, if ever, work.

Cancel MC. Unless you are both fully committed to working on the marriage - and don't fool yourself, currently your W is not, then it's pointless.

"I've decided against MC and plan to focus on IC instead."

W finally acquiesced to attending.

MC tends to be a waste of money unless both try, and you say she "finally acquiesced.

"finally acquiesced". That's exactly how I'd describe my then-W's stance on MC. I asked her for months to try it and when she finally agreed it was all of 3 sessions before she said she wanted a D. MC could be your W's way of delivering the message. Unless she really wants to work on the relationship and fix the marriage, don't bother - your time is better spent in the gym.

I know she was recently enamored by the plan of two divorcing college friends of hers - they will rent an apartment and rotate who's at the house with the children.

Do not, under any circumstances, rotate between the marital house / apartment. Hope you bust this divorce, but if it does end in separation do separate places - and you stay in the house. She's having the affair. She can move out.

Sex life is good. Never really had a dropoff there, though I was a little dispirited to read Sandi's comments in SteveLW's thread from 2018 about a woman using her H as fantasy vessel for living out sexual fantasies of her EA partner. Who knows if that happened with me. Probably so. Definitely had some rare occasions of morning sex during this time frame.

A friend of mine's W is having an EA yet their sex has ramped up. He thinks this is a positive sign, but I'm concerned for him...

It’s a horrible feeling when you feel your family slipping away and there is nothing you can do about it.

Agreed. Deeply sorry you're here Doug54. It really is an awful feeling I wouldn't wish on anyone.

Strength is the only way to go moving forward.

Doug54. LH is dead on here. Really spend some time thinking about this comment. Acting out of fear and acting weak is not going to help your situation. What you really need to do is get into a mindset of strength. YOU and the prize. She is crazy to leave you. You will be fine no matter what. It's very difficult to think that way when your family / way of life is threatened, but it's also the best mindset to have both for your mental health and for your chance to save things. You need to flip things on their head and reclaim the power. Act as if. You actually sound a bit stronger and more level headed than a lot of newbies, but work on your strength. It's time to start going about becoming a man she'd be crazy to leave and making your life incredible regardless of whether she's in it. In fact, if she wants to be in it SHE is going to have to prove to YOU that she's worth it.

Whether it is the same guy, or whether that fizzled and this is someone new is really not important. We LBSs like to fixate on the AP, but this is less about THE AP, and more about AN AP. In other words, if the AP ended things with her tomorrow, she'd just go out looking for a new one. It is part and parcel of wayward wives.

Agreed. Things ended between my ExW and OM1 - which I hoped and prayed they would after BD - and she went right out and got OM2 before she moved out and filed for D. Easier said than done, but don't fixate on the AP.

Is the rule of thumb generally that the person seeking the divorce should exit the home to start the separation process?

Well, even if you choose to give up instead, it's essential to stay in the family home until a lawyer advises you that leaving won't affect 50/50 custody or your finances. The court tends to look at the "status quo" (last few months' possession). Tread carefully.

DO NOT move out. At the very least consult an L first, to Traveler's point. But also consider you have S5, S8, and S14 who may view this as their home. Not sure your financial ability to keep the house, but at their ages this house might be viewed as "home" and the new place that either you/W get might be "daddy's/mommy's place". Position yourself as home base.

[LH19]

Sure you can DB and get a life like a madman.

If I could give young LH19 advice when he found out his w was texting another man, I would tell him to tell her calmly “I know what you’re up to, you can’t have both. It’s either him or me”. Than act accordingly to her answer.

Easy for me to say now as I’m on the other side.

I get it...I do. I've wondered how that would look given both W and I are on the mortgage. Neither of us could technically kick the other out. I happen to have more family in the area, but do I want to move out? Is the rule of thumb generally that the person seeking the divorce should exit the home to start the separation process?

Oh I’m not talking about kicking her out I am talking about divorcing her. Again I’m not advocating that for you, it’s a perspective after hindsight and reading 1,000 of stories. Generally you will negotiate who keeps the house in the divorce settlement. So if ultimatums and boundaries are off the table it comes down to you deciding and becoming the man you want to be moving forward. If that person becomes super awesome maybe it attracts your W back and maybe it doesn’t. Your W is actually doing the same thing right now except I suspect you are not the person she is trying to attract. What would Doug 2.o look like on paper?

[Doug54]

Thanks for the input, BL42. Sounds like there's definitely a common theme around this board with what I'm living through.

I definitely feel like I'm in a place of strength now. To be honest, I was ready to pull the rip cord on D about a month ago, but finances and me not wanting to be the one to leave, plus my IC posing some thoughts on my preparedness to do so made me pause. I also got caught up in the template for dealing with a MLC rather than focusing on the EA.

I fear W and I may wind up in a stalemate over who moves out. Even if she gets one of the higher paying jobs she's applied for, I can't see her being the one to leave. Perhaps after consulting with a lawyer I could get a separation agreement drawn up wherein I'm not considered abandoning the household, and live free with nearby family while the separation clock starts ticking. Top concern would probably be getting the finances separated ahead of this breast augmentation procedure.

I don't know if I really see a path to R at this point. In this day and age with smartphones, I feel I'll never be able to trust W again. Part of my problem the last few months was that my brain would just play a loop of greatest hits when I thought about the relationship. Then I would consider the financial hit of D, effect on the children, and what the marriage currently looked like. I guess it didn't feel terrible if I pretended nothing awful was taking place on the phone. MWD wrote in DR that during a MLC there would be times that felt normal, like days of old, that would be enough to keep you going. And yet...

Here's an interesting tidbit that I'm almost embarrassed to admit. I met W while she was separated from her first husband. It was an abusive relationship with the high school / college boyfriend which resulted in a shotgun wedding. In retrospect, a clear monkeybranching scenario. But, I fell in love with her and raised her two kids as my own. Was it perfect? No. But it certainly wasn't in the territory of the narcissism and control stuff she tried to throw out there as justification after sessions with her IC. Again, definitely trying to validate leaving in her own head. BL42, I agree with the comment about only surrounding oneself with friends who will affirm leaving the husband. W's stable of divorced friends seems to have grown exponentially the past few months.

I'm wondering if I should just use the MC session to air some thoughts on D. I mean, I'd almost prefer a referee of sorts rather than have these conversations in the bedroom with possibly raised voices and the kids nearby. As much as I may want to stealth this whole thing, I don't know if that's feasible. Funnily enough, W has noticed me being standoffish (more like aloof in a neutral way) and has sought me out multiple times the past few days. I don't doubt for a millisecond she's in over her head with this whole thing and will badly miss my help and companionship. Again, I'm not sure what a path to R would be with trust shattered. Sometimes, what gets broken doesn't go back together again.

BL42, would you mind giving me a Cliffs notes version of how your situation shook out? I'm sure you have threads somewhere but I'm still making my way through Steve's. Thanks again.

[Doug54]

LH19, thanks again for offering advice. I'm more involved with the kids this summer (I certainly wasn't absentee in any way before, but I've taken more initiative lately to give W "space"). I've gone to a gym for years and don't have a dad body at all, so the 2.0 Doug won't be going from schlub to physical specimen. I've reconnected with old friends and have a fun reunion planned with a college buddy in a couple weeks. I need to get into some new stuff though, to re-forge my identity. W really curtailed my social life early in the marriage.

I've done a lot more around the house as W tends to get overwhelmed with things. Again, not to say I didn't before. I'm working on several 180s, but if you look at what I wrote in response to BL42, I'm not harping on R. The trust thing just feels like an insurmountable obstacle. I definitely would like another relationship down the road, so hopefully I can apply new habits to the future. Might not hurt to read that No More Mr Nice guy book that some tout on this board.

To your point, I need to think about enforcing a bedroom boundary, but if I'm already largely resigned to D, maybe I should just ride things out.

[Doug54]

So, W had a meltdown a while ago after I took the 14-year-old out to spend some time with him and she had the younger two home with her. She's been complaining a lot more about the kids infringing upon her time to do herself. I don't see her turning into a WAW who bolts on everything, but it's definitely a MLC.

I made the mistake of initiating a very brief relationship talk after she'd cooled down, saying something like "I'm ready for this too" (meaning separation and moving in that direction). I also made reference to the MC helping us with moving on. Not great on dipping into anything related to relationship talk, but it was from a position of "strength" I guess.

[LH19]

Doug strength is in actions not words.

[Doug54]

I was wondering - if the line about "you'll never be more attractive than when she thinks she might lose you" applies, what incentive do I have to be the one to leave?

I believe Hoosjim referred to his experience wherein W had two weeks of panic after he "left" (whether that means leaving the marriage, the home, or both?). I just see the potential for a lengthy status quo if neither spouse is keen on being the one to pack up.

[LH19]

Yep that’s why detachment is key.