Joshua… I WISH I was 34 when all of this happened to me. I know it doesn’t feel like it right now but your W has given you a gift. You have so much time to find that person who is compatible with you and wants the same things you want.
Your description of your marriage does not sound like one that most people would want to be in. Communication, honesty, loyalty, affection…all really important. You don’t sound like you had any of these things and that you were more in love with the person you thought your W could be than who she actually was. Frankly, your W just sounds really immature and likely is someone who was way more in love with the idea of getting married than she was with being married. Not unusual for someone in their mid-20’s. That is still really, really young…in particular with she was still living at home. That period of independence between parents’ home and marital home is so, so important for emotional development. Maybe not in everyone’s case but definitely in most.
Your W has made it very, very clear in her behaviour that she is not interested in saving your marriage. You’ve been apart for over a year and only talked on three occasions? In the meantime she has been living at home and dating OM? If you had a friend in this same situation, what advice would you give to him? Your wife may not have filed for divorce but she did send you papers to sign. She hasn’t pursued you signing them because 1) she has made her feelings clear by giving you papers and 2) she has no real reason to at this point. You can bet that if she starts thinking about marrying someone else, she will be knocking on your door or sending you emails through her lawyer.
My question to you is… Why haven’t you signed them? Do you really, in your heart of hearts, believe she is coming back? Even if that were true, a divorce does not prevent someone from returning and asking for another chance. By not signing them though, you are clearly telling her you are still hanging on and she could return anytime she wants and that she is in charge of what happens. She has no urgency or reason to do anything one way or the other. In the meantime, life is passing you by while you live in limbo.
I agree with what others have advised. You need to ask yourself how much more of your life you are willing to give up waiting around for something that is highly unlikely to happen. Another year? Two years? Five years? Because you could give it ten years and the only thing that will be different is that you will be 44 and starting over instead of 34. Do not waste those years my friend. I am 53 and agree with what LH said, the years between 34 and now are a blur and seem more like 10 years than 20 years. Life is way too short to be spending it pining away for someone who treated you poorly and has clearly moved on.
Sorry…I hate to sound harsh but you need to really come to terms with the reality of this situation. You still have plenty of time to build that life you want with someone who wants the same things. If you knew, 100% for sure, that you would meet that person in the next year or two and in five years, you would be living your best life with a supportive wife who loves you and a couple of kids you love more than life, would you still choose to hang onto your W or would you sign those papers? If your answer is the latter, than I submit to you that what is keeping you from moving on is fear and not love. Embrace the fear Joshua. Free yourself from your situation and get started on making that new amazing life for yourself!!
Were you a virgin when you met her? Was she your first long-term girlfriend?
Originally Posted by Joshua
She was also much more flirty, showed sexual interest, and I thought we were on the same page. almost immediately, she was completely disinterested and said a lot of emasculating things which made me feel rejected and unloved.
I personally believe she had hang ups because she didn't want to get pregnant (didn't want kids).
she made me feel guilty for asking her to meet my needs.
Joshua, regarding sexual interest. First, you say she didn't communicate (stonewalled). Them, you say she did communicate (comments that emasculated you, comments that made you feel guilty, you suspected not wanting to get pregnant was a problem). have a thought experiment for you. If your wife were being given a voice, writing to explain why she lost interest in sex, what would she say? Start with the emasculating, guilting, not-wanting-pregnancy comments you mentioned. Include what she said in 4mo of IC. Being able to understand her perspective and your faults would help if you were to resume or seek another relationship. Communication involves listening.
You said you had trouble finding an affordable IC. How about your MC? You already know them, you already paid for them for 4mo (affordable), and they heard her perspective firsthand.
Originally Posted by Joshua
She couldn't see through her own wants and needs to compromise with me to meet my own needs.
That applies to both of you, no? In MC, I recall "If you loved me you'd do X for me." was sometimes met with "If you loved me you'd accept me not doing X." There's a limit to how far either partner can bend without building up resentment. I'd hope the vast majority of sex in any marriage is because both people desire it, not transactional (icky!) to meet the others' needs.
Josh, having said all of that, it doesn't justify her breaking her marital vows. So while you're not completely innocent, you weren't the one that bailed and stepped out on the marriage.
Important because of your religious beliefs (which I share).
Thank you. I feel like this is something that shouldn't need to be said. Most people pull out the "no one is innocent in a divorce" and that just adds more guilt but I truly think that the faithful spouse is not guilty for the marriage ending, in the ultimate sense, especially when cheating has occurred.
Steve Gregg of the Narrow Path has a good article which I think sums it up nicely. Here is an excerpt:
"Consideration #1: A divorce may be unilateral: the will of one party imposed against the will of the other.
In such cases (probably the majority of divorce cases), one party is a criminal, and the other is an innocent victim. Shallow thinkers may glibly claim, “there are no innocent parties in any divorce,” on the assumption that (nobody being perfect), even the apparent victim has contributed to the breakdown of the marriage by his or her own personal imperfections. However, only the naive will fall for this ill-conceived clich?. Even in very successful marriages, the imperfections of both parties render continuance in the marriage a trial at times, but this does not justify, nor necessarily require, that a divorce occur. Bearing the guilt for personal imperfection is not the same as bearing the guilt for a failed marriage. Your spouse’s being moody, ill-tempered, disagreeable, irresponsible, unattractive, unresponsive, unaffectionate, unpleasant, insensitive, controlling, etc., can make your life miserable, but such things do not add up to providing you with grounds for breaking your marriage covenant.
God requires a Christian to be one who “swears to his own hurt and changes not” (Ps.15:4)—in other words, one who, finding that a promise he has sworn to uphold will cost him dearly and painfully to honor, will nonetheless fulfill his promise, absorbing the resultant inconvenience and pain, for the sake of preserving his or her integrity. Most brides and grooms at the altar “swear to their own hurt” to some degree, because certain unattractive habits that are not known to them at the time of their making of the vow are generally discovered in their spouses later. Considering the imperfection of human nature, this scenario should be regarded as predictable and (in terms of the imperfections of a fallen world) normal. Nothing of value comes cheaply, and a godly marriage (the most valuable of earthly treasures—Prov.12:4; 18:22; 31:10) generally requires hard work and sacrifice to maintain. Those who cannot make such sacrifices should not indulge in the deception of making false vows (Ecc.5:2-6). Those who have made such vows must be prepared to keep them at any cost. Those who do not keep their vows make victims of their spouses, their children, and all other concerned parties. Thus approximately half of divorced persons are treacherous dealers and half are more-or-less-innocent victims of treachery. For divorce’s innocent victims (as for widows) the church should be a refuge and a surrogate family."
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Yeah it's kinda feeling like you're cherry picking info here. Women lose respect for their husbands over resentment. If you weren't cheated on out of the gate, the likelihood that you were "walked all over" the whole relationship (which seems to be a total of 3 years) is slim to none. On top of that, you guys were together such a short period of time the amount of resentment that needs to build up to create the kind of complete disregard and disrespect needed doesn't fit. Your WAW is much younger than almost every WAW here. You lived together for next to no time. You have no kids. No shared assets. And currently the way you're framing things you're making it seem like you sacrificed a ton for an emotionally immature, child bride who treated you like crap, unfortunately I'm really struggling to believe that's what really happen in your marriage. And I don't know that I'm the only one.
Most LBS go through phases. First phase is usually everything is my fault. Next is everything is their fault. Followed by even if some of it was my fault what they did was way worse so it's still their fault. Then it eventually, after a lot of time and work they reach, we both did some really detrimental things to our marriage, and even though this isn't what I wanted OR how I wanted it it's probably for the best.
Being here for a few years now I see a lot of LBHs get stuck at everything is the WW/WAWs fault, or some of it was my fault but what WW/WAW did was worse so this is still all their fault. It seems, like you either skipped over it's my fault and went straight to it's her fault or are getting stuck some where in one of these phases. k.
I'm also getting very tripped up with the status of your MR right now. It's such an anomalous MR here, I don't even know where to direct you. But not in the way you think. We get a lot of LBHs who think they've done no wrong. We get a lot of WAWs who are practically allergic to change. We even get MRs where the spouse have been separated for quite some time. Even ones that have spouses living in different countries while the MR is falling apart. What we don't get a lot of is a person who is trying to save the MR when it's been more than year since the WAS has moved out, the WAS isn't speaking to the LBS willingly, and the spouses have absolutely no reason to speak to each other. Almost every person we get has daily/weekly/monthly contact with their WAS depending on their situations. They have something that keeps them tied together other than the legally binding paperwork. Kids, money, businesses, property. Something. But you guys don't, and because of that I'm really struggling with what it is you plan on saving here, and why you think you have a chance of saving it. Maybe you can do some more clarifying for me.
On one hand you say she's your best friend, on the other you say she walks all over you. While two things can be true these two things can't be. Some one who is your best friend doesn't walk all over you. Why would you want to be married to a person who walks all over you? Why would you want to be best friends with someone who doesn't have your best interests in mind?
You cited religious reason for wanting to make things work, but I didn't see a thing about you loving her. You do however say you don't think she ever really loved you. Other than religious obligation why are you hanging on like this?
As far as I can tell she has zero interest in seeing you, speaking to you, and you have no means for which to communicate at regular intervals over neutral topics with each other, what we like to call business, because there is none. She's moved out, moved on, and all but filed for divorce. Correct? Do you guys still go to the same church or something? Do you work together? Have the same favorite lunch spot? How and when do you see each other? What reasons would you have to speak with one another outside of divorce proceedings at this point?
And just to be clear I'm not saying you don't have a snowball's chance in h3ll here. There's always a chance. Humans are weird unpredictable creatures who love the comfort of the familiar. There is always a chance. I've no agenda one way or the other. I am however, desperately trying to understand what it is that we can do to help in your sitch. So if you can articulate it why are you truly trying to save a MR that has been effectively over for more than a year at this point? Why do you want to be married to a person you think is a pretty crummy person as a whole? What steps have to taking to actively detach, GAL and 180 the most basic tenets of DBing? How long to you plan to stand for this MR? Why are you standing for this MR? What would it take for you to be the first to file for D? And what is it that we here on this board can do to support your journey?
This is a lot to respond to. I want to take a step back and try to lay the foundation for my thoughts. I'm sorry if a lot of it comes across as word vomit and confused. I'm still working through things, processing a lot of my pain, trying to figure out if my marriage is still salvageable, and constantly questioning myself. Yes, I'm extremely confused and hurt
To your first point. We were together for 2.5 years before we got married. I think we had a great relationship before we got married. We were indeed best friends, which is one of the reasons I married her. Our courtship, if you will, was easy and we had very little that we fought about. We meshed well. We were in agreement on a lot of issues and our moral code seemed to align. She gave me very little reason to doubt her. I believed her when she said she was a Christian and we went to church together. There were some red flags though that I chose to ignore. No one being perfect, I accepted her personality flaws and some attitudes that I personally disagreed with. At the time, they weren't deal breakers.
Once we got married, things changed. She didn't treat me like crap, at least not outright. It was more like apathy and the marriage was not a priority. There was no real commitment to the marriage. Over time we grew apart and became functional roommates. There was very little communication because when I tried to address issues in our marriage, she would stonewall me. She was also very avoidant of conflict, so she wouldn't address issues that she had with me. I repeatedly told her throughout the marriage I can't work on what I need to work on if I don't know what it is that I'm supposed to be working on. It was also hard to meet her needs in this way because I think she expected me to just read her mind.
I was listening to the Tough Loving in Marriage podcast episodes on YouTube. In it, the woman was describing how her relationship dynamic changed from the moment her wedding ceremony ended and she referenced the book where James Dobson says trouble in marriage can start on the first day of the honeymoon or it can start 50 years later. She recounts that her husband had a darkness cloud over his face and there was a growing distance between them immediately. She says that the morning after their wedding he told her that he didnt think they should have gotten married.
It felt very much like my wife regretted getting married from the start. She didn't outright say it, but that is the attitude I felt and there was a complete failure to really mesh our lives together. Even though thats what I wanted, she fought me on it.
One of the things, as an example, was that she just refused to wear her wedding ring. She made up the excuse that she didn't want to lose it. Ok, I could believe that because she was a forgetful person. However, I made the suggestion (kindly) that I could purchase her a cheaper wedding band that she could wear. I was shot down there too. I think she said something ridiculous like "everyone knows we are married". Also I heard from my mother that in one of their conversations that my wife told her that she tells people at work that she's not married. I asked my wife why she says that and she gave me some response about how she didn't want people to know about her personal life. I did NOT constantly hound my wife about this, I just kind of accepted it, like a lot of things, and let it go. But thats just one of those things that I look at now as a red flag that I should have addressed or not overlooked.
As far as fault is concerned, I dont know how to best put it if its not making sense by now. If one person is uncommitted to the marriage, and their own lack of investment/unhealthy habits/etc leads to them being unhappy in the marriage or problems that they themselves were the primary cause of, and then decide that marriage really isnt for them and they are going to break their vows just so they don't have to deal with it anymore, then I would say the fault is primarily on them. Sure I may have contributed somewhat to the breakdown of the relationship, had my own flaws, dealt with things in unhealthy ways, but in the end when one person wants to make it work and tries to make it work, albeit imperfectly, then I truly believe that person is not guilty of the failure of the marriage. That guilt falls on the person that was not true to their word on their wedding day.
Im going to quote some stuff from the DR book here cause I think its important.
"People dont just fall out of love. If love dwindles, its because the marriage wasn't a priority. Love is a living thing. If you nurture it, it grows. If you neglect it, it dies."
The above being stated, it would logically follow that there are some people who don't prioritize the marriage. If one spouse doesn't and their love dwindles, despite efforts by the other spouse, even in the extreme, is that the fault of the spouse that tried their hardest? I wouldn't think so. Aside from that, what matters is not he did this or she did that. Its the commitment.
"Love isnt a feeling. Its a decision" "Wise people dont allow negative feelings or the absence of loving feelings to make them question their commitment to their spouses"
Whether or not she was fully committed, only half committed, or completely uncommitted is something I can only speculate on. But its evident at some point, she was no longer committed and decided she wanted out of the marriage. I can also only speculate as to what exactly I did or didn't do to drive her away because her story was constantly changing near the end and because there were obvious ulterior motives for trying to get out of the marriage (ie her extramarital affair partner and still attached at the hip to her parents and wanted to go back to them) that just added on to the confusion of everything. Could it had been saved even if I was the picture of a model husband? Perhaps I'll never know. I still dont have a clear answer to this day as to why she want's a divorce, just lots of vague, illogical reasons that form part of the picture, but not the complete picture.
I will draw to something you said about WAW being allergic to change. This was my wife. I dont know why some people treat change like a 4 letter word but she seemed to have a lot of irrational fears and she couldn't be reasoned with.
I am/was trying to fight for my marriage because of yes, religious conviction, and also because I took my vows seriously. And I still have an expectation that she fulfills her vows. I want to be made whole. I don't think that's unreasonable to want. As far as loving her, I certainly don't have feelings of love. But again, love isn't a feeling. It's a decision. By all standards, yes she is treating me terribly and has betrayed me greatly in this. It's illogical for me to want to stay, but I guess betrayal has distorted my ability to think logically about it.
It is correct we have no contact whatsoever. I could call or text her. I could go over to her parents house and see her. I just dont think she wants me to. The last time I tried to get her to just go out on a date (which was more pursuing behavior, but I hadn't read DR at that time, so I didn't know not to do that) was before our anniversary. She said she didn't want to because she didn't want to give me hope.
We dont see each other, we dont go to the same places where we might pass one another. I could invite her to sit down and talk but what would we talk about other than the divorce? The only time we would talk from here on out is via mediation or divorce proceedings if I do nothing else. It does seem like she is just trying to move on with her life and the only thing we have together is that piece of paper that says we are still married.
I know each of my reasons for saving the marriage probably come across as weak. Maybe its just stupidity. Maybe its just fear of starting over. If the marriage is DOA, then maybe you guys can't provide any reasonable way to approach her where I could maybe reignite her desire to remain in the marriage. I was just looking for suggestions/input/feedback after having read the DR book and still being confused as to how I could apply the books principles to my situation. The book was great and had I had it a year and a half ago, things could be very different and maybe I wouldn't be in this position now. But as things are, I didnt read it then, did more harm that good in retrospect, and now have to dig myself out of an even deeper hole.
As far as detach, GAL, 180.... I'm still working on it. One thing I did do over year since she separated was loose 65 lbs. Went from 242 to 176 and got shredded. I was always muscular but let the weight get a little out of control especially when the gyms shut down due to COVID. I'm back up to 205 now, but still lean. I have a daily routine that keeps me mostly sane mentally and am staying physically active. Its hard to go outside a lot right now because its the middle of winter, but I plan to be outdoors a lot when it starts warming up (biking, rucking/hiking)
Anyways, after reading Love Must Be Tough, I think I do just need to grant her the divorce. It's not what I want and I'll still be committed to working on our marriage if she recommits, but since I can't force her to stay and she wants out, I guess thats all there is to it.
It felt very much like my wife regretted getting married from the start.
You're saying from the very start you sensed she wasn't into the marriage.
Originally Posted by Joshua
she just refused to wear her wedding ring. She made up the excuse that she didn't want to lose it.
Newlyweds do not typically forgo wearing their wedding rings. In fact showing off the engagement right is often a source of pride for women.
Originally Posted by Joshua
Also I heard from my mother that in one of their conversations that my wife told her that she tells people at work that she's not married. I asked my wife why she says that and she gave me some response about how she didn't want people to know about her personal life.
Newlyweds do not typically tell their mother-in-law they don't want their coworkers to know they're married. In fact they often tell everyone about the wedding and their life.
Originally Posted by Joshua
As far as fault is concerned, I dont know how to best put it if its not making sense by now. If one person is uncommitted to the marriage, and their own lack of investment/unhealthy habits/etc leads to them being unhappy in the marriage or problems that they themselves were the primary cause of, and then decide that marriage really isnt for them and they are going to break their vows just so they don't have to deal with it anymore, then I would say the fault is primarily on them. Sure I may have contributed somewhat to the breakdown of the relationship, had my own flaws, dealt with things in unhealthy ways, but in the end when one person wants to make it work and tries to make it work, albeit imperfectly, then I truly believe that person is not guilty of the failure of the marriage. That guilt falls on the person that was not true to their word on their wedding day.
So I largely agree with this. However, I also get the sense you're far too focused on "who's fault it is". You've spent a good portion of your posts so far discussing it, and I'm not sure that's really going to help you moving forward. Whether it's all your W's fault or all your fault or (more likely) somewhere in-between, the most effective area to focus on is how you can improve your life starting today. Try not to get stuck on assigning blame and instead work on making your life better with or without her.
Originally Posted by Joshua
I am/was trying to fight for my marriage because of yes, religious conviction, and also because I took my vows seriously. And I still have an expectation that she fulfills her vows.
I completely understand wanting to work on the marriage for religious & moral reasons, and applaud you for taking your vows seriously. However, regardless of your expectations she is breaking her vows and that is out of your control.
Originally Posted by Joshua
It does seem like she is just trying to move on with her life and the only thing we have together is that piece of paper that says we are still married.
Yes. That's certainly how it sounds.
Originally Posted by Joshua
I was just looking for suggestions/input/feedback after having read the DR book and still being confused as to how I could apply the books principles to my situation.
Re-read the Last Resort Technique (LTR) section from the book.
Originally Posted by Joshua
As far as detach, GAL, 180.... I'm still working on it. One thing I did do over year since she separated was loose 65 lbs. Went from 242 to 176 and got shredded. I was always muscular but let the weight get a little out of control especially when the gyms shut down due to COVID. I'm back up to 205 now, but still lean. I have a daily routine that keeps me mostly sane mentally and am staying physically active. Its hard to go outside a lot right now because its the middle of winter, but I plan to be outdoors a lot when it starts warming up (biking, rucking/hiking)
Awesome! That's all great stuff. Keep up the work out routine. Many on her lose 25-30lbs through the process but then put some or all of it back on. Keep it up look and feel great. Are you doing anything socially with existing friends or to meet new people?
Joshua...as others have mentioned you are still relatively young and do not share children. You've said she was not into the marriage almost from the start, had no sex before and very little after (a source of frustration for you), and that she hung around other guys and started an affair with a high school friend just one year into your marriage. I understand it's very difficult in the present, and don't mean to sound harsh, but you think you're going to look back on this down the road and realize she did you a favor by getting out so soon. The best advice I have for you is to take the focus off her and your relationship with you and put your full focus on making your life awesome. Maybe she'll regret leaving you and come back, but more likely you'll find someone much better.
Me:39 Ex-W:37 M:7 T: 9 S:6 D:3 BD/IHS/Confirm EA/PA: Feb '20 OM1 affair ends: May '20 W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20 W files for D: Jul20 OM2 confirmed: 9/2020 Divorced: May '21
Joshua, I typed a big long reply yesterday and deleted it because, truth be told, you are getting great input from BL42.
So I just want to encourage you, make sure you are reading all of the information in the welcome message. There is gold in that reading. I paid particular attention to sandi's rules and writings. Implementing her advice changed the dynamic in my situation, and I do not think my W and I would have R'd without it.
Also, read Divorce Busting. If you have already, read it again. I have read DBing multiple times and every time I learn something new from it. Just keep learning, progressing, and growing as an individual. Knowledge is your friend!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Sorry I haven't replied in a few days. Been busy with work and other things this past week and weekend. I appreciate all the replies. I'll try to respond soon.
Quote
Also, read Divorce Busting. If you have already, read it again. I have read DBing multiple times and every time I learn something new from it. Just keep learning, progressing, and growing as an individual. Knowledge is your friend!
Is there anything in Divorce Busting that isn't in The Divorce Remedy? I have the read the Divorce Remedy, and picked up "Healing from Infidelity" but haven't made my way through that yet.
Is "Intimacy & Desire" the one by Dr. David Schnarch? I'll pick that one up too
Yes. I had to get mine second hand as it is not printed anymore (at least where I live)
Adding to what wayfarer wrote. “ Just because something's not your fault doesn't mean it's not your responsibility. Our ability to act and change is proportional to the amount of responsibility we take on for ourselves.
Fault is past tense. Responsibility is present tense. Fault results from choices that have already been made. Responsibility results from the choices you’re currently making every second of every day. ”
The reason I recommend Love must be though was to help your orientation of where you are in the process. So now after reading it and given it doesn’t matter who’s at fault, what do you think you need to do to take responsibility for yourself in your CURRENT situation?
Answering the questions in wayfarers last paragraph is a good start.
Big ups for reading the book and starting to do the work needed.
I basically just need to give her the divorce and move on with my life at this point. If she comes back, great. My guess is she wont, but I can't let my life be contingent on what she does or doesn't do.
