R2C - I normally pray. I'm catholic, and sometimes I'll say the rosary until I fall asleep. Last night I sent a message to this message board to help get things off my mind. Sometimes I'll make notes in my phone. I look the notebook idea and a couple of the other's. Thanks.
Today has been a remarkably hard day. I'm looking forward to getting home to have a drink - just enough to take the edge off. I had my coaching call and then took a 45 minute walk with a friend who has been through this. In talking with him I could sense how far behind I am in terms of acceptance and that I'm still in denial. I guess I'll vacillate in and out of the various stages of grief. He said it will be easier when she finally moves out.
I hate days like this where I dwell on all of it and can't get my mind right. Normally either the coaching call or the walk would have been enough. Just a tough day.
You are doing well buddy. This stuff is hard. We all experienced the hadship. The lack of sleep, anxiery, insomnia, the works. But it does get better, it really does. It is a slow process though.
You must not beat yourself up about it. The kids will be OK. You will be OK. You will thrive.
Separation Agreement ———— Once the kids went to bed we sat down to discuss moving forward in the separation phase of the divorce. When we sat down She was already agitated because of the edits I had made to the document. She thought that she was going to send me the document for review and that I would make some comments, we would review it together and then edit it together. The only information I had were her texts which said “FYI, I sent you two google docs for temporary separation agreement and change/not change. Feel free to add comments or add to the list. Maybe we can discuss one night this week.”
I had gone through the document and spelled out most of what we had discussed as it related to custody and I took out the language that had given her extra time with the kids on my days. She felt that I was trying to put myself ahead of the kids because by taking them after school on my days that was creating a lot more change for them than if she got them and did their homework with them. She was upset that I had assigned who got the kids on which days when she had left that in the document as parent A / parent B. I said we could change it, but she was just mad I had made that change, she really didn’t care who had which days.
I pointed out that she should be happy that I want to be with the kids as much as possible. That was a good thing, that their dad is wanting to spend so much time with them. She made the point again that this is just the temporary agreement. I wasn’t sure how that changed anything.
She was so agitated that she said we were not going to be able to go through mediation and that we would just have to let our attorneys figure everything out. She said that I always get what I want and that I was not willing to compromise on anything. I remained calm as she raised her voice.
I explained that this was her divorce and that she wanted all of this, and that I wanted none of it. With the changes I said that it would lay the basis for our custody document. She was trying to say that wasn’t true and that this was just a temporary agreement until we worked through the divorce with the mediator. I unfortunately lied and said that my attorney had told me that it would be the basis for the custody agreement. That really pissed her off and sent her to the moon as she said “I didn’t think we were getting attorneys involved in this.” I tried to explain that the document was written in a way that included custody and financial arrangements that I could not sign and agree to. She said that we didn’t have to sign it.
One item that she really was angry about was that She wanted to have a Sunday night transition at 7pm and i said i didn’t want that. I mentioned that I had seen A friends agreement that was written for a transition on Monday morning. That pissed her off because I was talking about this with my friends and she says she hasn’t talked about this with anyone. She’s very angry that i would discuss this with other people and she feels that it should be kept between us. I told her that she could feel that way.
I think if we were able to get our ego’s out of the way we could find middle ground. She scared me by sending me a formal looking document with financial obligations and custody obligations with a sign here and date line that felt like I was locking myself into something that would and could be used against me. Multiple people said that i needed to have my attorney review the document. She felt that she had just created a document that would help us iron out some of the details of the situation so that we could have a smoother transition. I can see her side, but I feel like she never tried to understand my point of view at all.
As we tried to review the document she sat in her chair with arms crossed and left the computer on the ottoman as though it was up to me to complete the document. She was basically pulling away showing that she was done with the conversation. She had felt like I was avoiding her all week and was mad that it was Thursday by the time we were discussing this and that we were going to tell the kids on Saturday.
On several occasions she brought up past conversations. She would say you told me not to schedule our son with the child psychologist. I told her that i said i didn’t think they would be a good fit when she asked for my opinion. She was in shock and said she was going to start taping our conversations. I said that would be fine, because from my perspective she makes things up and i pointed out how she had made up that her sister and mom didn’t believe gordy had dementia and then she reversed course in the same exact thing. She explained that away by saying it was confusing and that they just weren’t sure.
One interesting thing about how she communicates is that if she asks for an opinion and I react with negative tone she takes it all the way to the bank. For example on a spectrum if she asks me, do you like that price of art and I say not really, I communicated my dislike at a two but she hears me say I hate that - like it’s an 8. And the same goes the other way. If she expresses that she likes something at a 2; it’s really an 8 and she gets outraged that i react as though it’s a two.
I kept trying to focus on moving through the agreement she had sent me and after we got through the custody stuff she began to settle down. As we went through the finances she was upset that I expected her to furnish her own house with her money. I explained that in the divorce she was going to get all the money and I would be left with my business. It finally seemed like she gave on that point and she said that wasn’t fair to me. She felt as though i should get to keep some of the money but at the same time she said she should get her fair half. I went through some of my thoughts in regards to the financial settlement and she mentioned that she didn’t want me paying for all the kids schooling, though that was generous, because she wanted to have a say in it.
At least with the finances she was less irate once i explained it to her though she then reversed course and said we would need to go through the house to divide up furniture. She mentioned that she had begun to make a spreadsheet of items in the house.
We went round and round on the day we would tell the kids. She was noncommittal in the timing and she did not want to set the time and date. She was trying to blame my work dinner as being a reason we could do it, since i said if we told the kids i wouldn’t go - or arguably trying to be nice so that I could go to my work dinner.
She made it clear that she was upset that she was disinvited from Thanksgiving, though she didn’t want to go anyways. But she expressed she was upset about that. I believe the same goes for my work dinner Saturday based in her tone.
In discussing how we were going to tell the kids i let her know what I could agree to and what I could not agree to. I agreed with her that we needed space. I said I could agree to the separation. But that under no circumstances did I agree to the divorce and I tried to make that very clear.
We said with the kids we would try not to use triggering words like divorce or separation but I am worried that they will feel like we’re hiding something and not being honest as I reflected on it afterwards.
I asked when we would tell the school so that they could be aware of the sensitivity of the kids. She wants to tell the school after we tell the kids. She is very worried that the kids will over year someone else talking about this and she wants to make sure they find out from us.
I stayed calm through the conversation. I thanked her over and over again for the work she had done in the agreement trying to show gratitude. It felt like it fell on deaf ears, but somewhere I’m sure it sunk in. I really tried to compliment her in points in the document that were well done but she was so triggered and angry that she didn’t seem to hear that either.
Her theme was simple: He controls everything, he won’t compromise, he always gets what he wants, this is BS, he can talk to my lawyer. She was triggered from the beginning because of the edits I made to the document, she felt like I was controlling the situation. She was triggered because she felt like I had avoided her all week. She was angry.
I tried to listen and validate as best I could. I tried to show gratitude and be calm and gentle as I could. I tried to be strong and not cave. I did say I’m sorry about five times in different spots. It’s so hard to stop when I’m so used to it.
I did bring that up with her, as my coach recommended it. I told her that I was sorry (ha) for saying I was sorry all the time and that I was going to try to stop. (She never says she is sorry, ever btw)
I said that I was going to reserve that word for when I had done something wrong and that i thought in the past i had used it in arguments to get her to stop talking as opposed to trying to understand her perspective.
One comment my coach made that really struck me through this was when he said “you’re leaving her behind, she’s not leaving you.” I really felt that in this conversation. I felt like I had really grown a ton and that she had gone backwards. She felt like a teenager to me with her moods, accusations, anger, etc.
From stories I’ve heard she was a lot like this with her mom during those years. I was reading about transference in a book and i wonder if somehow her relationship with her mom from her teenage years has been transferred to me and I wonder if the hormonal changes at that point and now in her 40’s could lead to this behavior. Just a crazy thought.
Your coach told you to apologize for apologizing?!? That doesn't seem right. Stop saying sorry doesn't mean to say sorry for saying sorry. Are you really sure that is what your coach said.
Sorry Scott, but this was not good at all. You sound needy. You reiterated again things she already knows (I don't want this, you want the D, etc).
Until you can approach the agreements you need to come to in an business like manner, dropping the outward emotions and using it as an excuse to break one of the tenets of DBing (NO R TALKS!!), then you are doomed to continue making mistakes like this.
Sorry Scott, this is a huge setback. And you are too far along to allow this to happen. However, it is water under the bridge. Time to pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and resolve to do better moving forward.
Last edited by Steve85; 11/06/2012:50 PM.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Steve - Thanks for the feedback, can you provide additional clarity - I'll try to do the same.
Quote
Your coach told you to apologize for apologizing?!? That doesn't seem right. Stop saying sorry doesn't mean to say sorry for saying sorry. Are you really sure that is what your coach said.
I was making a joke that I'm so used to saying sorry, that when I stated I was going to stop saying it, I apologized for saying it. I agree saying I'm sorry is not DB-ing. Its a crazy bad habit I have and even when I was extremely aware that I was saying I'm sorry, it would come out before I could stop it. From my coaching session, this was something that I became aware of and I'm working on. My coach thought there was a 180 opportunity here to let her know that I have used "I'm Sorry" to shut down conversation in the past and that my new goal was to stop saying it and to try to do a better job of listening to understand. He said that if anyone can hold me accountable to this, being vulnerable with her at this point as she is now basically an adversary, she would and I could grow from it.
In the conversation, I do not think that I cam across as needy, but maybe I did. I felt strong, I held my positions, outside of my colloquialism of saying "I'm sorry" I thought i did pretty good. She was being extremely emotional and irrational. I was staying calm and trying to focus on the document we were reviewing. I was definitely approaching this like a business meeting, I was thinking that in my mind.
In terms of a setback, I think I disagree. I was able to hold my opinions and not cave. Her irrational, angry, and confrontational behavior did not tilt me or trigger me. I went to bed and counted backwards from 100 by 3's and was asleep in an instant.
The setback is this -- she is coming completely unhinged. Guilt, anger, frustration, suffocation, all of it - I don't know, but she is a mess. You wouldn't know it if you were anyone else, but in she comes apart in these conversations - And she scheduled it. ------------------------------- Now this morning, you can bring the pain on me. As I was leaving the house, she walked by me and I gave her a kiss on the cheek. She did lean in for it. Why did I do it? I don't know, it was premeditated. With the huge craziness the night before I felt the need to let her know I still cared.
And then I got a dose of more crazy. Yesterday her and my son had asked me to take him to get new ski boots after school today. She normally pick him up. As I was walking out the door she said "And I just want you to be aware that you are taking my time with him after school today!" She said it with tears in her eye and angry as heck, the kids were waiting in the car for me to take them to school. I should have just said "I can understand how you would feel that way" but it was such a crazy comment because I have to leave work early to do it and she asked me to.
Anyhow, last night I felt good about, this morning I major league broke a rule. A good piece of me doesn't care, because I felt so good about last night. I really stayed within myself and didn't let her bait. I stood up for myself across the board and I didn't take on her emotions. I really worked to listen and validate - I could do more there. The Art of Listening helped, but I got a ton more to learn.
LH's comments on changing hormones really came home last night especially as my reading in the Art of Listenning discussed transference. When she was a teenager her and her mom had crazy battles that I've heard all about. My wife actually sees those times in her life as when she was strong and stood up for herself. I think the crazy hormonal stuff going on has triggered some weird stuff and I think she has transferred a lot of her family of origin stuff from her mom to me.
We'll see how the days ahead go, but I feel stronger today.
Scott, as I just told curtis in his thread (another poster that did very little DBing), this is your sitch. You can do whatever you want, DB, don't DB. However, you cannot come here and claim you DB'd when you clearly did not. The posters here will call you out for that.
Great you stayed calm. That was about the only thing you did right. And then this:
"The setback is this -- she is coming completely unhinged. Guilt, anger, frustration, suffocation, all of it - I don't know, but she is a mess. You wouldn't know it if you were anyone else, but in she comes apart in these conversations - And she scheduled it." This proves to me that you still do not get DBing. DBing HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HER!! This is the biggest mistake LBSs make. "I got a life, 180'd and detached. She is angry and bitter, it isn't working!" WRONG! If you are GAL, working on yourself, and detaching, you will be successful...............in moving on a better person setup for success in future Rs, whether with your STBXW or someone new!!! DBing always makes you successful even if you do not save your marriage.
And then this:
"From stories I’ve heard she was a lot like this with her mom during those years. I was reading about transference in a book and i wonder if somehow her relationship with her mom from her teenage years has been transferred to me and I wonder if the hormonal changes at that point and now in her 40’s could lead to this behavior. Just a crazy thought.""
"LH's comments on changing hormones really came home last night especially as my reading in the Art of Listenning discussed transference. When she was a teenager her and her mom had crazy battles that I've heard all about. My wife actually sees those times in her life as when she was strong and stood up for herself. I think the crazy hormonal stuff going on has triggered some weird stuff and I think she has transferred a lot of her family of origin stuff from her mom to me."
WHO CARES?!?! SO much focus on her. Scott, you are trying to find the REASON in the false hope that means it can be FIXED! Here is the truth you have to come to: You may never know the reason. And even if you do you cannot fix it!!
I just went back to your post I originally responded to. I am just curious. Where in that post do you think you DB'd?
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I think you did ok. Right now you stand up for what’s right and fair. Do not give up any of your time with the children. Absolutely nothing you do good or bad will change where you’re at right now. Hormones and past traumas and hurts are definitely playing a factor in it. The problem is you have no idea how long it will last.
She is 100% done right now and will be for a while. Just know that sooner or later their will be doubts or regrets and that is when she will be able to see the new and improved Scotty B.
Scotty B Steve is right about you trying to diagnose it and fix it. I’m guessing that’s what makes you successful in business. That doesn’t work in this arena. So handle your business like a negotiation you would with your clients/customers and keep the emotions out of it.
LH - The business analogy is good. I'm always trying to find the objection. If you clear the way of objections then there is only one logical choice, do business with us. If there are no objections and they don't do business then something else is up. You try to dig to the root so that you can address the problem. Sometimes they just don't like you, sometimes they have stuff going on they just don't tell you, and sometimes they decide to go with someone else, but you try to figure it out.
I'm confused by Steve's response. Steve, how would you define Divorce Busting?
