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[Dawn70]

((((Andrew))))

My heart is absolutely breaking for you. You are a good guy and you deserve a partner who has her stuff together and can treat you as well as you treat her. I know others on here say those people in our age group don't exist but I choose to hold out hope just for the sake of people like you that they DO exist. I just don't happen to think S is one of them. I have tried so hard to stay on team S through all of this, but honestly, I'm just going to say what I always say...….people do NOT inherently change. She has a pattern. She has used her manipulative behavior over and over again to get her way, to make people feel sorry for her. She has never been a "single mom" in the true sense of the word because she's had a revolving door of people taking care of her and her brood. She is not likely to change that behavior, even for a good man such as yourself.

I'm not an expert on anything in this life, but I have been an educator for a long time so I like to think I know at least a little bit about kids. The things you pointed out about s13 and s18 seem to be fairly typical. S13 is ruled by the chaos and will likely, like his mother, manipulate and play on people's pity to take care of him for his entire life because he has learned by her example. S18, it sounds, though, has found a structure and routine under your tutelage that ALL kids crave whether they realize it or not. You've done right by both of those boys and s18 is reaping the rewards. Like kml said, I would not be at all surprised, if she goes, that he might be more than happy to stay. Something to think about and prepare for ahead of time so you aren't caught off guard if it does happen.

I have a pretty hard-line and unpopular opinion on ADD and other similar issues. I do believe that those issues actually exist in some people. I do not believe that they exist in everyone who is diagnosed. I saw it a lot in the 90's sadly, when kids were just spoiled or rude and parents were convinced they were ADD and insisted on them being given Ritalin or whatever else when what the kids needed was structure, guidance, etc. I think it is the same way in adults. S may well have ADD but I think she also has a laundry list of excuses and manipulations to keep people feeling sorry for her and feeling like she is incapable. It has been pointed out before, but if she has all these issues that she claims keeps her from organizing her crap in your house, how does she effectively take care of a small child on a regular basis? I realize she is the child's grandmother, but I wouldn't want her keeping my child, grandmother or not.

I don't normally advocate just throwing in the towel, but Andrew, honestly, I think you are looking at a lost cause at this point. You are waiting/hoping for something that just isn't going to happen. S isn't going to miraculously put all her stuff away and start cleaning up after herself and making her kids clean up after themselves. She's just not. She's found a meal ticket and is taking advantage of your kindness and your generosity. She is disrespectful of your wants, needs, and boundaries. She blatantly defies your budget and your wishes, despite you talking to her about it.

You say you are conflict avoidant and I get it. I am too. But is being conflict avoidant and just keeping your mouth shut and living with it really worth the crap you are dealing with at the moment? Honestly, there was a point in time where I would've kind of felt a little bad for S if this whole thing didn't work out. Now I just feel bad for you that you are losing yourself to the chaos.

((((Andrew)))) Take care of yourself, Andrew. I'm worried about you. I don't want you to be unhappy, but I also don't want you to be used and manipulated.

[kml]

I suppose, too, when you're on vacation next week and doing all that work around the house, the picture may become clearer to you of what she's actually doing all day while you're at work. I've almost suggested several times that you consider a nanny cam - it might be revealing to see what's happening when you're asleep or at work (but be careful of laws in your area around recording people without their permission). It might just be that she's puttering around getting little done because she gets distracted or her back hurts - or you might find she's just lying on the couch, chatting with friends, watching the Kardashians and eating junk food all evening. (Hopefully not injecting or snorting any of her meds. )

It does seem clear though that she's not a noble single mother done wrong by her men but rather someone who has made bad choices repeatedly and always relied on men to bail her out and support her financially. Or maybe, more charitably, a very dysfunctional person who cannot really make it in the world, or someone with chronic back pain who slid into addiction.

I imagine you can't get away with this in your nationalized healthcare, but here in the US, a dead giveaway is if a patient had multiple prescriptions for pain meds from various doctors.
"Doctor shopping", showing up in urgent care and ER with an "acute" problem and getting another prescription. There are tighter controls in place now in my state but not yet in some others.

[DonH]

I again have to applaud you for having the courage to come clean about all of this - even if it took several attempts to do it. I know it can’t be easy to admit all of this.

Does this actually change things? Probably not.

---------------

Again - does this change anything? Not really.

You can’t be serious!!! After confirming pretty much what many here have told you and what I strongly suspect you’ve known all along, it still doesn’t change anything for you? Seriously? Then what would?

The real question - which remains unanswered - is how will I proceed. I am conflict avoidant, optimistic and tend to believe in people.

Yes, that is the real question. And you may be conflict avoidant and those other things but those are also only excuses. Time to put on your big boy pants Andrew. It’s not easy. Many things in life are not easy. But claiming you somehow can’t act because of avoidance is just a flat out excuse. Not saying again it’s not true and a real issue for you. Then get some help for it. Go see someone and change it. No, you will never be like me - lucky for you. but you can learn skills to grow a pair for lack of a better phrase and a professional can help you with this. You will feel so much better about yourself and your life when you do. The info you are now admitting to yourself does change things. It most certainly does! Don’t run away from that. You must act on what you believe to be true and not stick your head in the sand hoping it will si ehow get better on its own.

"Doctor shopping", showing up in urgent care and ER with an "acute" problem and getting another prescription. There are tighter controls in place now in my state but not yet in some others.

Actually, all 50 states now have prescription monitoring databases. The majority have for about 5 plus years with the last state, Missouri, pretty much making the St. Louis system state wide and bring #50. The laws requiring when and who has to check it still very by state but in all honesty it’s not like they can somehow check that a doc is looking at the history before writing a script. Still, the days of doctor shopping in the USA are pretty much gone. Not saying it can’t still happen here or there but it’s now rather rare. Of course I have no idea about Canada. Stereotypically it’s often easier for a 50 something mother to convince a doctor she needs to continue narcotics than say a 23 year old who fell from a horse. It’s also harder to get those who’ve been on them for many years off than just not starting them in the first place. That is to say S might not get started on these meds today but already being on them is a more difficult issue. Of course there are some who do okay and dont fall into addiction. To say being on either of these much less both of them are not effecting things would be foolish. It’s just another box to check as to why you have got to get out of this situation.

I don’t want my tough stance to get overshadowed here. I know this is all hard for you but just like the drug therapy S is on, it’s hard to get off of but can be done. Also like the drugs it’s always easier if you don’t start to begin with. You can keep hoping your passive aggressive behavior will drive S away but at some point you may have to be the one to end this - especially since you have the most to lose. S and the kids will survive and move on. S will find #7 or #8 or whatever in no time. She’s done it before.

[AndrewP]

what she's actually doing all day while you're at work.

I work from home 4 days / week so I have a somewhat clear idea. She does help S13 with his home schooling which is only in the past week or so. She says she has "work" to do although that seems to involve leaving her bills unopened (a huge red flag) and she does some mild puttering and will go through boxes and put things away.. There is occasionally paper that gets moved around. Meals and housekeeping are reluctantly done as rarely as possible. Once I'm done for the day it's in front of the TV with her phone until she goes to bed. One of her biggest complaints is that there's nowhere for her to "work". Other than like the kitchen, the dining room, the table she put in the dressing room, and the table she has in the office. So she finds that difficult.

I do think she's responsible with her meds. Even the supplemental weed (to relax her back muscles) is fairly rare. She's more likely to forget to take her meds than abuse them. While I won't post what the meds are, I believe the one for her back isn't pain related but more to reduce the chances of spasms. There may be a dependency there but I don't feel that it controls her life. She seems to run out of her ADD meds before renewal fairly often and gets sleepy and dis-organized. I don't "think" she has an after-market for those.

Again - the picture being painted is very dark and gloomy and yes, I'm not a happy camper at the present. Would I be happier alone right now? Undoubtedly. Is this a more difficult situation compared to what I lived with for 26 years? Also, undoubtedly. Would me being a grump and grumbly make this any better - not at all.

I'm not someone who gives up easily. I would be less than honest to S and more importantly to myself if I didn't give this every chance to succeed and attitude is a big part of that. I do need to work on trying to ignite my own spark that has been lost. A key difference between now though and the past is that in reality, I've got nothing to lose if this doesn't work out beyond what I've sunk into it. My "self" is still intact.

[kml]

Well then, you’re going to have to be more assertive about what you want. And you might need to go to couples counseling to do that. She’s sleeping half the day so she can “work” half the day then knock off when you do.

Seems to me it would be reasonable to say:
Anything not put away by ex date is going into deep basement storage because this level of mess is not acceptable to me
I need you to leave me alone when I’m sleeping. If you can’t align your sleep schedule with mine you need to at least let me sleep in peace. (Or you could passive -aggressively wake her up at 5 am on weekends for sex lol)

We need to sit down and plan out weekly menus so we can control our grocery bills.

[DonH]

A key difference between now though and the past is that in reality, I've got nothing to lose if this doesn't work out beyond what I've sunk into it. My "self" is still intact.

I actually fear that you may well have more to lose if it does work out. Your motivation, willingness to try and make this work is much less in doubt than hers. Of course you can only control you. I know you want to give this every chance but I’d be willing to bet most of the rest of us are praying it does not work out - for your own good. Please make her prove herself and put any thought of marriage on hold. Then again with her not even pursuing D yet that does prove a safety valve.

If she’s not on an opioid narcotic and is instead on a muscle relaxer that would actually be a good thing. Even a benzo would be better though still of a high concern. Unless used as part of a drug cocktail a muscle relaxer is not addicting and has far less chance of creating other problems. A benzodiazepine like Valium, Atavan or even Xanax carries addiction issues than can sometimes be as bad as an opioid. Still if she’s not on Vicodin, morphine, dilaidid or oxycodone, (or similar) that would offer a bit more encouragement and be a good thing.

[Ginger1]

You keep saying you don’t want to give up, you want to remain hopeful and optimistic....

But you can’t remain hopeful and optimistic that she becomes someone she is not. She is who she is, she does what she does. It’s not going to change. Just as you aren’t going to change. She isn’t going to magically become clean, tidy, or motivated. She isn’t all of a sudden going to be able to care for herself and take responsibility. She isn’t going to become unlazy, want to get off the couch, go for walks, go on adventures, travel.

She’s going to remain her. That’s not changing.

You would have to change or just tolerate and accept living as you are. And why would you do that? What Benedict is in it it for you to do that?

I just can’t u sweat and what “being optimistic and hopeful” means to you. What do you hope for? That she becomes someone she fundamentally she is not? Or that you adapt to who she is ?

I do agree with Don, it takes a lot of guys to share this stuff. I also think it’s good that you are aren’t turning a blind eye to all of this . But I do believe you have to realistic with what the situation is and not hope it magically changes. Hat may take you some time, and that’s ok.

And instead of being optimistic and hopeful that this relationship will work out, be optimistic and hopeful that your life will be very rich if it doesn’t. Just like it was. Think about everything it was and could be.

The only shame that could ever come out of this is repeating this again pattern again. Meet someone and move them in right away. It was very romantic when you were a young unattached man and your ex wife was a young unattached woman where you were just beginning to build your lives. It just doesn’t work that way in adulthood after we’ve established careers, had kids, and became fundamentally who we are over many years. Finding and taking the time to make sure we are compatible is necessary later in life. There are too many important things at risk. And you shouldn’t have to be “risky” if someone really loves you and wants to be with you.


We all wish you the best. No one wants to see you be hurt and used and unhappy. And I imagine if some random people on the internet and your barber feel that way. I could imagine how your kids and friends and family feel.

[AndrewP]

And instead of being optimistic and hopeful that this relationship will work out, be optimistic and hopeful that your life will be very rich if it doesn’t. Just like it was. Think about everything it was and could be.

I really like this. Thank you.

[bttrfly]

The pattern appears to be - have a partner, have problems, leave partner but keep partner on the hook. Have someone else, go back to partner, get pregnant (waves to doodler who isn't here any more) and then end relationship with original partner. Gaps between are perhaps measured in months if that. I'm confident that she was going to reach out to me within a month or so of her failed reconciliation with #4 but that B beat her to it. Which is why she was waiting in the wings after B dumped me and leapt into action.

Would you say this is where you currently are in her pattern, because it seems to me to be so??

Does this actually change things? Probably not. It does hurt my sense of optimism and annoys me that in some ways that I've been "played" by a pro - even if not deliberately.

I can understand why you feel that way. This part, though, leaps out at me:

From the first date or so though, I've not been given time to breathe and drama and anger has been used to push me along when I seemed slow to make a commitment which resulted in the engagement and then when I seemed slow to have her move in.



Introducing to kids and family all is done quickly. Prospective mate is love-bombed and not given any time to breathe / think and guilt is a common pressure tactic. Arguments usually start with S being offended at something I've said / done or if I question her choices. Then immediately deflected back, "you never listen to me", "I'm only trying to do what is best for you" yadda yadda yadda

The parts in bold are especially HUGE red flags to me. It indicates an unwillingness towards self-reflection, personal accountability, and creating a hostile environment so that there will never be any true open or honest communication of anyone's needs but her own. This is absolute BS and my friend, you deserve better.

---------------

Again - does this change anything? Not really. It does make me more cynical. "Can" this work? Sure.

How are you defining "work" because where I'm sitting the only one working is you, and that's not likely to change. My question to you is have you come this far to spend the rest of your life in a relationship where your basic needs aren't met and won't even be acknowledged? Only you can answer this.

Will it work? The jury is out on that. Is it possible to form a healthy relationship here? Questionable. The fact that her family including her kids and parents have undoubtedly seen this pattern at work has to be tough on them as well. Her immediate family may perhaps treat this as "normal" but I do believe that her son-in-law has pretty clear vision.

He's probably got the over/under down, if you want a true look into the possible future.

Does S herself look at this so impartially? Doubtful.

I would say no, Hedoublehockeysticks NO. Kind of makes me wonder what #s1-5 would say about their relationships with her in contrast to her perspective/what's she's said to you.

Beyond the primary participants, I do worry about the boys. S18 has been making huge progress in self-confidence and behavior. He regularly expresses optimism that his mother is going to get her act together and purge and tidy. I've noticed that some of the manic behaviours he's had have slowed down and he's actively contributing more and being pro-active about things.

S13 - now that the good behaviour period is up has shown himself to be a rather lazy entitled little sod. I've gathered that his acting out is a thing of legend, especially when he's around his father who for a variety of reasons is paranoid of cracking down on him.

You worry because you are a caring, decent human being who is unselfish to a fault. Remember that they are not your responsibility and that you can extend an invitation to her 18yo should you choose to, as others have already stated.

S herself knows that I'm unhappy but I don't see her ever changing her core behaviours. As we learn here, people are who they are and generally don't change. It's been suggested that some of her sleep and motivational issues may be chemically related. She's got a doctor's appt on Thursday to review her and S18's meds in fact.

Personally, I know that I'm one bad grump away from saying "you don't have to live here". Got close last night when she got home well after I was in bed from babysitting her GS, came in, woke me up in a friendly way being happy to be home / see me, dumped the dog on the bed and closed the door to watch TV and play on her phone. I don't like having any critters in with me and the dog tends to wander. So - I got up, handed the dog back to her remarking that the "moonlight wanderer" was perhaps happier with her then went back to bed where I then couldn't sleep. The dog made her pleasure known by depositing on the living room run - again - which was there for me to clean up in the morning. I don't believe anyone was in the living room so perhaps it's reasonable that got overlooked.

No. The FIRST thing she should have done upon getting home is taken that poor animal out for a gentle airing. That's called abuse. Abuse towards the animal, who has no option but to crap in the house and abuse and extreme disrespect of you and everyone else who lives there. As an animal lover this just frosts my cookies until they snap!!!

Trying to decide if I'll hit post on this. I've composed similar posts a few times and canceled. I hate to feel like I'm whining and complaining. It is plain and the crooked nose on my face though that she is indeed taking advantage of me and my good nature. The real question - which remains unanswered - is how will I proceed. I am conflict avoidant, optimistic and tend to believe in people. I am though also a much stronger person than I was 5 years or so ago not to mention more cynical.

{{{{{{{Andrew}}}}}}}

I'm confused about timelines. You stated she was involved with #4 reconciliation at the end of 2019? did you mean 2018? Because she was clearly with you and pushing for marriage by the end of 2019.

Ok, I'm just gonna put this out there: clearly, she's exhibited some behaviors she's shown in the past: half-hearted attempts to clean up her act, etc. to "fix" what's wrong with the relationship du jour ... I have to ask this Andrew- how do you know she's not lining up #7 right now? i'm sorry to be that direct, but it does seem to be her pattern, and you've said she knows you're not happy.

You are absolutely NOT whining or complaining. It seems to me you're taking a hard, honest look at this situation and pondering your options.

I apologize if I've been harsh here. Her utter selfishness and immaturity with regard to her children and these animals she is supposed to be responsible for sends me over the edge.

Maybe a more Buddhist approach would serve everyone best, so here's my feeble attempt:

We do not know what the soul contract is between you. Perhaps she is in your life to simply give you an opportunity to choose whether you want the life you'd created for yourself pre-S coming on the scene or would rather live in a situation that's the antithesis of that. Perhaps she's supposed to teach you that you are worthy of standing up for yourself. Perhaps you're supposed to teach her 18yo son another way of life. I'm deliberately not calling him S18 because language is important and that implies he's your responsibility in some way, which is absolutely not the case.

Andrew, you're a good guy who deserves more than you're getting. I'm sorry this is where you're at with this relationship.

[job]

Andrew,

Please, please read all of the postings that you have received in the last 24 hours. I agree w/them 100% and you know, how I feel about unpacked boxes, smelly rabbit hutches, stuff lying around....unacceptable by all of our standards.

All I can say is this...we all can't be wrong in what we are reading and stating, especially if people IRL are saying the same things to you. Maybe it's time you take a little trip away from your home for a day or so by yourself and just ponder if this is really what you want to come home to every day for the rest of your life.

If anyone is going to change in that household, it will be you, i.e., either you accept the mess and half hearted attempts to get things done, her lack of a job, etc. or you get firm w/her and no matter how she acts out...get the words out and tell her what needs to be done. You are going to have to be firm w/her. If she gets upset and/or angry at what you say, what is the worse she can do? Pout, pack a bag and run away? Maybe that's what she needs to do and come to the realization that you are a wonderful catch and if she doesn't step up, she may very well be out the door.

Time for S to either sh*t or get off the pot. She's been sitting on that pot long enough.