Is this what you're looking for? It still reeks of arrogance and entitlement to me.
He tells you, and proves it, that he has cut all contact with her, blocked her from all devises, and that he plans to keep it that way. He apologises for taking so long to do it and accusing you of being controlling when you asked him for it. Then he ASKS you if you would consider going on the trip.
THAT, you deserve.
A liar and a cheat telling you where you will go and what you will do? You deserve so much better, May. And no matter how hard shared custody is and how difficult it is to adjust to, it WILL be better than you continuing to allow yourself to be treated this way.
I'd be very hesitant to make big concessions on what you need to feel happy/comfortable on this trip. He'd be learning he can indeed wear down your boundaries to get things his way.
When he said we're going on this trip, he had also said he was going to do what I had asked, but I was pretty much discounting that since there didn't seem to be a real plan or whatever, and I was waiting for that.
Yesterday morning, I asked what his plans were. It started off as a fight (on his end at least)-- I was telling him what to do yet again, he can't feel controlled and "submit" to my requirements, I was forcing an ultimatum and threatening him, etc. He said the request felt reasonable but it wasn't being put to him in a reasonable way. I didn't really argue back but stuck to my position.
We ended up talking a lot, all day. I told him I was open to discussing and coming up with a solution together, but I didn't envision changing my mind around what I needed in order to move forward. I explained where I was coming from-- I didn't think I could enjoy the trip worrying they might be in touch, I couldn't enjoy it worrying they'd be back in touch when we returned, I didn't *want* to relax and enjoy it only to have another BD in a month or two-- my mental health simply couldn't take it. And he said he wanted this trip in order to be a family and be together, to rebuild and re-knit the fabric of our relationship-- and I said I couldn't give him that without knowing she was out of the picture, there were technological assists to help make sure that happened, and that he had the intention of keeping it that way. Also, that HE couldn't honestly focus on our R if he still has the possibility of her in the back of his mind (as apparently was the case in the spring).
Anyway, talking it through really helped, I think it helped him to feel like it was something we were coming to together as partners, instead of it being something I was telling him to do. He acknowledged he couldn't really try with us if she was still potentially in the picture. For the first time, he talked about really letting her go and what M2.0 between us could look like, rebuilding intimacy, falling back in love with each other. (Always before the best he could do was we'd be good friends.)
I told him what I needed in order to be able to go on this trip as a family and do as he wants (truly re-engage with him... he felt even in the spring I never really opened up to him, I go from sad to angry so quickly, and am not open or vulnerable with him). I said that was absolutely impossible for me to be vulnerable to him or to let go of the anger with her in the picture in any way. I'm not trying to punish him. It is just not possible. And I said over and over-- if he can't do this, if he can't let her go, if he can't give our R 100%-- then there is simply no point. Then the best thing to do is to D. I'm willing to give this a shot but only if he'll do it too, 100 percent, no foot holding the door open for AP just in case.
He's in a session with his IC now working out next steps, exactly what he will say to AP and how he can do it in a way that will be satisfactory to me, the blocking, etc. We will see.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
May - for what its worth, we all went on a RV trip together down the Oregon coast. My H was in contact with her, I knew that, but I didn't say a word. Yeah, that part sucked, but I focused on the trip, getting out, being with the kids and really enjoyed myself.
I mostly kept my mouth shut around him. If he wanted to converse, then we did. When he seemed cranky, I just gave him lots of space. He never seemed happy and would never say he enjoyed himself. But later, much later, he told me how much fun he did have - and how he enjoyed being with the family- and how all he was doing was heavy on his mind. They KNOW they are doing terrible things. But it makes them feel better when WE are acting "badly" because it just confirms that we are bad spouses and its really our fault.
I know your H is way different than mine, so shut him out when he gets chatty - focus on bonding with the girls. Let him see what he would be losing if he did pursue the ow. Don't get baited. Smile, be friendly or at least cordial, make the coffee (if your making your own) and swallow your pride - be agreeable. You can cry in your bunk at night. He KNOWS your hurting, he is not blind. Figure out what is your goal? Do you want to be together? if so, work towards that don't get tripped up in all these R talks, at least put that away on the trip so you can enjoy it and make some great memories with the kids.
M:50 H:49 D:16 S:13 M:23 T:25 BD: Feb 25th 2020 EA/PA: Dec 2019 - June 11, 2020 Behind every broken woman is a broken man...
I have to be honest, I don't know what, if anything, your H could say or do which will give you the comfort that you need that he will NEVER contact her. I don't think he could confidently tell you he will NEVER contact her again. It is like an addict saying there will never be a time when they want to take a hit again. What you have to ask yourself, is right, now are you willing to take it one day at a time.
He has to have the will power to say "No - today my actions will not be driven by my desires". And that is something only he can control. If he contacts her, you will never know. So you have to make a conscious decision to trust him (or not). If you do not trust him, then all his words and all his actions will make no difference. He sits on the toilet too long and in your mind he is texting, he goes for a walk, and in your mind he is texting, his phone beeps and in your mind it is her.
I am a smoker. Each time I quit, I count the days, then the weeks, then the months since my last cigarette. Then one day something will happen which makes me pick up a cigarette (it's mainly H related, but sometimes it's as simple as being out with friends), and then I start counting days again. Even after months and months of not smoking, I will always say I am a smoker who has not had a cigarette today. The desire will always be there. But, I can choose not to act on them. In the first month I see smokers everywhere. In the second month, I might only see them on those times I would normally have a cigarette, in the third month, I barely notice at all unless something reminds me (e.g. someone offers me a cigarette at the pub or my H and I have had a particularly difficult interaction).
CW... thank you. It sounds like it went well. He hasn't shared details of exactly what he is going to say to her but I don't really need to know, I think, except for the broad strokes. He knows what I have asked for in order to go on this trip and try to work on our relationship. He'll do it or he won't. He said last night he plans on doing it today. We haven't really talked much so I don't know what the deal is. Trying to continue to not GAF either way.
BlueSea, thank you for that story... I was thinking about your RV trip in all of this. I don't want to go if she's still in the picture. But I think you're right in that I want to be able to focus on the children and having fun and not feel worried about what he's thinking or doing or whatever. We have been talking about doing an MC session before we leave to talk about communication. I feel like I gave him a lot of space in the spring when he broke it off with her last time, and now he's saying he never felt we really reconnected during that time. I think we weren't really communicating about real stuff or feelings during that time.
I guess I'm wondering if we do go on this trip if I treat it like piecing or just keep DBing a la Wayfinder (Wayfinder, any thoughts?). I think the key was that last time I never felt like we were piecing because he never looked me in the eyes and said he wanted to work on our M, that he could envision M2.0. He mostly moped around feeling sorry for himself and I gave him space and then started to get all freaked out that he was going to want to sweep this all under the rug and never address the A.
This time there are some key differences-- he's talked about M2.0, falling back in love with me, feeling like this time he's saying goodbye to her for good, not with this half-hearted thought in the back of his head that he'd "try" with me for a year and it wouldn't work and maybe she'd still be waiting around... he feels like this is it, now. So, assuming he does do what I'm asking, and he continues to talk about working on our MR in a real way and not half-@ssing it like last time, I feel like we're in a different place, somewhat. We will see. He has a loooooong way to go for me to trust him again and a lot of stuff he needs to work on for himself, why he did this, etc etc. And I have things to work on too. And we would have to build our MR up from the ground all over again. But this time he's the one talking about that, not me.
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I have to be honest, I don't know what, if anything, your H could say or do which will give you the comfort that you need that he will NEVER contact her. I don't think he could confidently tell you he will NEVER contact her again. It is like an addict saying there will never be a time when they want to take a hit again. What you have to ask yourself, is right, now are you willing to take it one day at a time.
He has to have the will power to say "No - today my actions will not be driven by my desires". And that is something only he can control. If he contacts her, you will never know. So you have to make a conscious decision to trust him (or not). If you do not trust him, then all his words and all his actions will make no difference. He sits on the toilet too long and in your mind he is texting, he goes for a walk, and in your mind he is texting, his phone beeps and in your mind it is her.
FS, you are totally right. In fact, this was the prime "concession" I made in our conversation over the weekend-- he said all those same things, he can't predict the future, he can't say he'll never ever speak to her again. All he can say is that he does not intend to reconnect with her and that is something he will need to do every day.
Last time, he wanted to have access to her contact information so that he felt he was making a conscious choice in not reaching out to her rather than leaning on technology. In fact, if it were up to him, he would like to do the same this time. I am holding to (a) we tried that before and it didn't work (b) you should set yourself up for success and there is a reason we tossed all the sugary snacks in the house before we did the Whole 30, and by the end we weren't craving sugar any more; and (c) *I* need more than your word this time, so that isn't going to be enough for me. Plus, the biggest part for me is the bomb she threw in May, she's moving on, which I believe started all of this. It wormed into his mind and he ended up reaching back out to her with a stupid excuse and it just cascaded from there.
I spent a lot of time angry with him for not really trying in the spring, and he has said over and over he DID try. And I have come to the conclusion that I believe he did, in fact, really try. But by not cutting off all communication channels with her, and leaving that key difference open in his mind-- he was not recommitting to the M but simply ending his A, and wasn't truly letting go of any possibility of being with her again-- he set us up to fail. So I do trust his intention and words when he tells me he has the intention of never speaking to her again. I just need some technological support around it and to remove the ability for her to throw any more bombs in our lives. But fundamentally, I do trust him if he does this. Maybe if he was more agreeable to doing it in the beginning I'd trust it less. But he is DEFINITELY not telling me what I want to hear in any of this, which gives me more faith that when he says something, it is true. And I'm kind of a trusting fool. I talked about this with my IC. It has bit me at work in the past. But I'm also okay with that. That is who I am and I don't want to change it, and I'll take the hits that inevitably come with that. So, yes, I do feel like I'll have enough trust to enjoy this trip if he does as I've requested.
But anyway, I acknowledged that what I need is his intention to end contact with her and his intention to work on the MR with me, which necessitates him doing all he can to remove her from his head. I am no longer asking him to tell me he'll never speak to her again. Saying that his intention is to never speak with her again, today, is all he can do and all I am asking. This change was helpful for him. (Though maybe more about me admitting I was wrong to ask something he can't give than the actual change-- I think it felt less like me dictating what he should do because I was willing to listen to him and adjust.)
We also talked about him holding onto the vigilance for me-- instead of me needing to ask "who are you texting with" him knowing that at least for awhile it will be on my mind and doing me the favor of saying "oh I just got this text from so-and-so" so that I don't have to worry. He actually started doing this already the last couple of days, which is kind of nice. I'm waiting to see if he'll do this with the blocking etc., or if I need to ask. I really really really don't want to be the one to ask.
Anyway... FS I was also thinking again how similar our situations are. I am also half-Asian (Japanese) and of course you know my H used to be a pilot. I was thinking how much that job must reinforce the ego-- being the captain, everything you say goes, everyone is deferential to you. I know for myself in my job, I need to be careful what I say in meetings because if I am too decisive in what I say everyone else will just shut up and the decision was made without getting input from others. I need to purposely hold my thoughts and encourage others to share. But I also recognize how heady and attractive that feeling can be for some people-- what you say goes, everyone listens. My H's job is absolutely that-- he is a consultant and his entire job is telling people what to do and they eat it up all day long-- and then you come home to a W who feels like it is her job to sometimes take you down a notch. I think it is hard for him to code switch at home to being a partner instead. And TBH it is probably hard for me to do the same, sometimes.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
May, thank you for the great advice on my thread. I’m going to answer there later, but just wanted to say how proud of you I am in your situation. I think you are doing amazing in your boundaries and resolve and I can SO relate to the hopeful, ‘trusting fool’ that you are. That’s me to a T, and regardless of where things go in my R, I am proud to be an optimistic, ‘trusting of humankind’ member of society. You should be too.
I also just need to take an (un-evolved) moment to say how much I hate WhatsApp. OW is the only American H speaks with on that app and although it is a mainstay communication app for the rest of the world, it seems to be only used in our country for hidden communication. Deleting it isn’t possible for us, due to family and friends that only use it to communicate with us, but FFS. I HATE IT.
Rant over.
Reading your update, from the hopeful eyes of another ‘trusting fool’, I think that you and H are on the right path. It seems you are navigating his view of your ‘control’ issues with your reasonable expectations of his actions with grace. And it reads as though your H is slowly starting to understand where both he and you are at. Having said that, I am sure there will be some unexpected twists. Such as his depression at the end of their affair (which may not hit until you are on your camper-van way). What can you do now to steel yourself against that sort of emotional onslaught? Especially considering that your H ‘needs’ to process those types of emotions with you? In addition to being a sister in ‘trusting fools’ I am also your sister in needing to plan. Are your boundaries firm enough to deal with that right now? If not, how can you make them stronger?
You are doing amazing all considering and I am so hopeful for the directions things are going with your situation.
May - I have to say that even if he deletes all her contact information, if someone wants to find someone, they will. FB, Instigram, Twitter. As long as he has her name, he will find her. I'm not saying he will. I'm just saying this type of thing takes self motivation. And there's a reason it's called 'self' motivation. He controls it. Not you. Trust him or don't trust him. But you have to commit to the trust. You have to not assume the worst every time he looks at his phone or is gone a little too long.
I have read a lot of stuff about divorce and pilots - the fact that when they are away they are kings of their little kingdom. A continuing stream of people who look up to and respect them and follow their every word. They are in charge. And whilst they are away, we establish routines, bedtimes, school runs, taking the rubbish out, getting the groceries, calling in repair men. So use to being in charge, they come back and feel lost, no-one is deferring to them, or even worse, they come back and get hit with four days worth of problems at once "the dishwasher's broken" or "X did this in school".
I understand know how hard that must have been. Throw in unconscious resentment on my part - he gets to go away for four days and leave me at home with two young kids, his job is viewed by everyone as more amazing (god I hated how everyone fawned on him when he told them he was a pilot) even though its my job that pays most of the bills and what you get is him feeling emasculated when he gets in.
I wish I could talk to him about this now. But it is too late. It is not too late for you.
