Limbo over, now separated but in lockdown (part 3)

[Pommy99]

Hi Pommy,

I am new here, but have been following your situation and have so much empathy for what you are going through. We have very similar timelines with our separations, and even had brief reconciliations on the same day(s).

The rollercoaster is so real and I am so mad at myself for allowing myself to feel a little bit of hope for those moments. Only to be dashed again and back at square one. Navigating his confusion, while also trying to deal with my own confusion on our M.

I am finding that with each blow (momentary recon, discovery that the old EA is back again), I am bouncing back quicker each time. I am definitely not as detached as I would like to be, not by a long shot, but I am making baby steps.

Hi Sage I am so sorry you are going through this too. You have probably read that my H had an on/off EA. I know how much that hurts. It’s good that you are bouncing back better each time. I crashed very badly after his reconciliation u-turn 3 weeks ago. I have cried harder than I have ever done but I also think I may be moving into grieving and acceptance. I feel more detached than ever before. My therapist is really helping right now. We have discussed Trauma Bonding and Intermittent Reinforcement, two concepts which both seem to be at play here. I have done a lot of reading on these and can now really see the toxic and manipulative behaviours that he has demonstrated. I know that I need to sever the trauma bond. She says it’s an addiction on my part and has asked me to go cold-turkey NC.

I have found that not seeing him every day has been good for me... I get my balance back for at least a moment and the clarity allows me to really think about whether or not I really want him back. Seeing him every day was too hard to get that clarity.

. H and I had a very long and painful limbo under the same roof. How long have you been separated? What are you feeling about wanting him back? Separation was not what I wanted but seemed the only way to break the cycle, but he’s made it difficult with the continued stream of texts, visits etc.. I have just gone a full 4 days of NC. It was hard and by day 4 I was a mess but I got through it. He came to the house yesterday with the kids as they needed to get clothes for a trip out. I was busy upstairs so stayed upstairs but eventually went down to say hi , we had a chat for a few mins then I just went back to what I was doing. I felt in control.

I’m feeling a different set of emotions now. I’m looking at him and not recognising him as my husband. I’m asking myself if I was dating again, would I date him, would he be a “match”. I’m feeling this detachment and in some ways it’s scary. I’m scared that I might not want him back. Is it normal to feel like this? I’m scared that I’m possibly about to give up on my M. What is the difference between feeling detached and feeling like you’re done?

Is NC the right thing to do here? Because the DB book says that after he has expressed interest in reconciliation but then runs away, to back pedal but resume an interested but distant stance. The book also says that when separated, make every interaction as positive as possible, yet I am going out of my way to avoid interaction (like purposely being out when he comes to pick up the kids).

[may22]

Four days NC! Congrats, Pommy. That's great. I hope it is starting to get easier. I fully believe it is the best course of action for you right now in your situation, both for you own healing and sanity as well as any possibility he comes out of his fog.

[Pommy99]

May, (Or anyone) what are your thoughts the timing for discernment counselling? I mentioned it to H after his R u-turn and he said it didn’t sound like a bad idea. But I don’t know if it’s pointless right now, because he seems so far out of the marriage, or whether I should give it more time of NC and see how that pans out? I feel like if I initiate DC I am constantly trying to “do something” to fix the marriage (=pressure) rather than just dropping the rope and “ do nothing”.

I’m not really clear on where he’s at but it’s been 3 weeks since he wanted to come home and then changed his mind and seems further away than ever.

[Sage4]

Hi Pommy, I am wondering the same thing with regards to DC. And we have the same timeline (3 weeks ago a recon, then it seems things have gotten worse from there). I am also inspired by your NC, I think I need to instigate that too, although it is so hard with young kids.
Following, with empathy...

[may22]

Hi Pommy,

You can google discernment counseling-- it is a pretty specific, time-bound process that is specifically designed towards making a decision one way or the other. Our counselor said when I talked to him on the phone about it prior that in our case he thought he would probably do some sessions separately with each of us, but we didn't end up doing that (and I think I've shared that he kept telling us we were veering out of DC and into MC generally and tried to steer back to the three basic choices-- status quo, move towards S/D, move towards R).

In my case, I'd researched it and picked this particular therapist more because he had Gottman training than DC training, before I found out BD#3 (the PA for 2 years part). My H was actually the one who brought up counseling after I started to lean out once I found out the full extent of his betrayal, and I suggested this guy because of his discernment experience. At that point, I was very ready to get out of limbo one way or another, and was fully researching the D option. (You'll recall I never had "we stay friends" on the table-- for me, it was either he ends the A, she is out of our lives completely, and we work on the M, or we D and will lead separate lives as much as humanly possible with two young kids. I had no middle ground there.)

My H was very, very ambivalent and having a really hard time making a decision, so the DC part fit well for him, and truly for me too at that point because I wasn't sure I really wanted to stay married by then. It was important to my H by this point that whatever we chose to do, we worked on together. I will say that for me, I ditched the "status quo" option in the first session and by the third session, maybe even the second, I knew my first choice was working on the M. The only option off the table for me completely was keeping the status quo. My H, though it took a lot of talking to get to this, would vastly have preferred to keep both me and the AP, so basically the status quo, though he acknowledged that the stress was really eating away at him. Also, since it takes two to keep the status quo, he had to accept that with it off the table for me, it was off the table for him too. The only option that can be unilaterally pursued is S/D.

DC feels like it is kind of like IC in a couples setting-- the counselor hears from both of you, but helps you each make an individual decision about those three options. I think if you have a good counselor, it can be helpful but you need to be 100% percent prepared for the S/D outcome. In some ways, it could be a "check the box/I tried" experience like half-hearted MC, which I feel was kind of our experience in MC the year prior, before I knew about the A but knew we were having problems. (As an aside, it still blows my mind that we went to MC for nine months or so, every single week, and he never spit out the fact that oh, I'm sleeping with someone else. He was DEFINITELY using the MC as a "check the box" situation and it went nowhere.)

In our situation I think it was helpful, I think the MC/DC is good with both of us and did a good job keeping us on track, pushing on both of us, our communication and assumptions, etc., especially when compared to our first MC. I don't know how much of that has to do with his training or not. And, things were truly at a total head and simply couldn't have gone on the way they were-- at least, I couldn't have done it. For my H, the stress of all of it (AP was absolutely pressuring him hard at this point, I believe, from things he said) was almost overwhelming and I do think the DC-- at least the process of it, combined with the timing of his trip to her city being a deadline for me-- helped end the limbo. Of course, it could have gone the other way.

In your case, I'm not sure I'd recommend it unless he says something about wanting to talk to someone together-- in that case, you could say there is this thing called discernment counseling that is specifically designed for people in our situation. But otherwise, I still would stick to your NC. I do agree it could come across as pursuit. Maybe have DC as something to suggest next time he says he is thinking about R. I could see it as a good way for him to show some level of commitment to figuring things out together with you-- committing to six weeks of DC-- so that he doesn't just jump in and then back out again and ruin your equilibrium. It could be a structured way to engage together and decide what you want to do.

I hope you are hanging in there... thinking of you!!

[Pommy99]

Thanks May. I will leave it off the table for now. I’m trying to give myself (and him) a mental break from constantly thinking about the M. It’s hard to get it out of my mind 24/7 but I am distracting myself. I’m also not sure myself which way I’m leaning.

So as predicted, the pursuit has started again after the brief period of NC. Yesterday H picked up and dropped off kids and I was out all day. In the evening the pointless texts started coming through - a spider in his house, etc. Then responding/quoting one of my posts with ‘LOL’ type comments in a WhatsApp group we are both in, followed by ‘liking’ a load of activities I’d uploaded in a social media fitness app. He is truly following the script.

This morning he has called to discuss the difficulties he is having with the kids. Both D are a ambivalent towards him in varying degrees and he can see how they are struggling emotionally. He wants them to see his IC so they can talk about their feelings, and so he knows how to better manage the situation with them. D14 is already seeing a psychiatrist for severe anxiety so I said I don’t want her to see another professional when she’s only recently started with the current one. He didn’t see an issue with her seeing two, whereas I said she will be overwhelmed and may well receive conflicting advice, which is just going to be confusing to her and detrimental to her progress. He sent me some links about the impact of S/D on children. I’d already sent them to him about 5 months ago. He’s only just getting the enormity of the situation now.

I found the conversation hurtful because it seemed a stark reminder that there is no R in sight as far as he is concerned. This kind of interaction just sets me back again. I refrained from making any comments about him having left, or wishing he would come back, or ‘I told you it would hurt them but you didn’t see an issue’.

I kept the conversation very business like. He asked how i was, how my weekend was but I kept my answers short, and didn’t ask him how he was. Should I be asking him or should I not go there? I’m still struggling between being cheery and interested in him or showing him I’m over it.

[KitCat]

I've been following your sitch - mostly because I try to read ALL the advice that gets put out there.

I want to offer lots of hugs!!! I think you are holding up your head beautifully during this stressful time.

I'm no expert but from everything I read - waffling is normal. The other is that we tend to walk away too soon and not to lose hope. But, maybe I'm just gleaning things that make me feel better?

I think you have shown immense strength while still at times being compassionate to your H. Keep up your boundaries. I think you can both be pleasant and show that you are over it. You are standing for yourself. You will not stop for breadcrumbs. From what I've read of your situation... it was when you created your boundaries that H was pulled toward you again. Take a step back and work on that a little more. He is still peeking in your windows out of curiosity...

Peace and Love

[wayfarer]

Hey Pommy I'm happy to hear you're working really hard on the NC. As far as DC goes I'm with May. We had one very very disastrous session because H was so deep in own mess he was not on the fence at all. He kept saying he was, but he wasn't. We had our session and then we fought for 2 more hours. In that fight is when he said some of the most horrible stuff to me throughout this entire fiasco. At a certain point he even convinced himself that I was somehow listening in on his part of the session. If H's simply play acting to keep you on the line DC like MC right now will do you no good. If your H is truly on the fence and isn't sure about how to move forward in any direction, DC is a good course of action. Like May said, something to keep in your pocket if he starts waxing poetic about reconciliation all over again.

As far as D14 goes. While I understand your hesitation as she's seeing some one for her anxiety, I don't really think your H is looking to put D14 in therapy with his therapist so he can deal with her, what is sounds like he wants to do is attempt some family therapy sessions with his IC running the program. If this is a family therapy session, or even just H's IC with the girls included supplementing his progress I don't see how his IC would start telling D14 anything that would conflict with her treatment. If I am understanding this correctly the sessions would be more about the girls opening up to H in a moderated and guided session. The most the IC would do would give them tools to better listen to each other, communicate more proficiently, and how to serve the girls needs better. His IC or not he's the parent. The sessions wouldn't veer toward how the girls could make H more comfortable.And honestly what the girls have to say is probably something H really needs to hear. I wouldn't shelve this entirely, Pommy. The girls might need this. You may want to ask H some more questions about what he thinks that session would look like. If it sounds like what I'm thinking it sounds like I don't see this being a harmful thing. To feel better about it you could check with D14's psychiatrist and ask that they reach out to H's IC prior to the session just to establish treatment boundaries and so the IC is prepared for whatever may happen during the session.

Last NC rules are pretty clear. NC means NC. Friendly neighbor conversation. Business only conversation if necessary. You have no obligation to find out how his weekend was even if he asked you. Also a positive attitude doesn't include you looking interested or disinterested in him in either way. You are happy around him because you are happy with or without him. You are pleasant and cheerful because you have no reason not to be, his presence doesn't affect you. This phase is neutrality. People who haven't moved on work in 2 ways they either can't stop themselves at fawning all over the person they are trying to move on from, or they treat them with disdain because passionate feelings create passionate responses. The opposite of love isn't hate, it's ambivalence. Give your H all the ambivalence he can handle.

[may22]

I’m trying to give myself (and him) a mental break from constantly thinking about the M. It’s hard to get it out of my mind 24/7 but I am distracting myself. I’m also not sure myself which way I’m leaning.

That's OK, and glad you're focusing on you and engaging in other things!

He sent me some links about the impact of S/D on children. I’d already sent them to him about 5 months ago. He’s only just getting the enormity of the situation now.

Surprise!! My H did the same thing. Sometimes they're a little slow

I found the conversation hurtful because it seemed a stark reminder that there is no R in sight as far as he is concerned. This kind of interaction just sets me back again. I refrained from making any comments about him having left, or wishing he would come back, or ‘I told you it would hurt them but you didn’t see an issue’.

Good job on refraining on any comments. My read? (not to be mindreading, but)-- he threw out some positive breadcrumbs on the social posting, texts, etc. That didn't work to get a response from you so then he tried temp checking in the other direction to see if he could get a reaction that makes him feel better, confirming that you're still there. If you'd said those things, you'd have given him that certainty. Do your very very best to not let anything like that cross your lips. Otherwise, you're back to square one. And don't let it throw you. He's just opening his mouth and letting his confusion all out-- it doesn't mean he thinks D is a certainty, or anything, really. Remember, believe nothing of what they say.

I kept the conversation very business like. He asked how i was, how my weekend was but I kept my answers short, and didn’t ask him how he was. Should I be asking him or should I not go there? I’m still struggling between being cheery and interested in him or showing him I’m over it.

I agree with WF on this-- positive and cheerful for YOU, nothing to do with him. Neutrality is what you're striving for. You can be cheerful and totally disinterested in him, or at least not overtly interested in him. Not rude, not showing him you're over him-- simply you are good with yourself as you are, you don't need him (or anyone) to be happy.

Again, this may be a fake it til you make it kind of thing, but I do think it is really critical. I think the key is focusing on YOU and what you need, doing things because you genuinely want to do them, not because you want to elicit any particular response from him. I'd try not to overthink it and have your default be not asking, not over-responding, not saying anything relationship-related.

[Pommy99]

Thanks May, Wayfarer, KC. Honestly there has been no R discussions in a week and a half. I'm so not going there any more. We exchanged a few texts yesterday - he had to go to hospital for a minor accident treatment. D16 told me he'd gone but I didnt send any txt to ask if he was ok. He drove himself there - I knew it was minor. We exchanged some texts about medication - I didnt ask how he was or what had happened, but I didnt want to come across as completely uncaring so I did respond to his request for some medicine that he thought we had and I said I would drop it on his doorstep as he was still stuck at the hospital after several hours. (Unfortunately by the time I got there he was also just pulling up at home so I wasnt able to avoid seeing him, but I did stay in the car and handed it through the window!. He txt me later to say how much he appreciated it kiss kiss. I responded no problem (and no kisses)! Today I havent contacted him to ask how he is, knowing that he has an injury. I feel cold and uncaring.

I am still struggling with the business like/treat him like a neigbour approach. As Sage (I think) wrote on her thread, when you know that you've been emotionally/physically unavailable in your marrige, continuing to act that way surely just reinfoces their belief that that is who you are and you will never change. I've spent a year trying to be both emotionally and physically available and now I feel like I'm withdrawing it again. So how can he ever trust that I am that kind and compassionate person that he married, when I put it out there, then take it away, put it out there, take it away, etc?