I am so impressed with posters like WayFarer, Pommy and May who seem to have done such a good job of navigating their situations with so much grace and calm. I am desperate for that ability right now.
I just had a really negative encounter with H and I’m trying not to cry in front of the kids...
We had a conversation about something sad one of the children said about our current situation and H accused me of lying, then got angry with me when I said that I needed to put this conversation on hold for the time being so we could both be calm. He made a mean comment about how passive aggressive I am and stormed off for the night.
For those of you who had WAS’s return at some point, were they ever really contemptuous or mean to you about the things you said or boundaries you put up?
For those of you who had WAS’s return at some point, were they ever really contemptuous or mean to you about the things you said or boundaries you put up?
Yes! Partners often get upset when you first set boundaries. My first "No" was met with yelling and anger that I was controlling what "we" did. I used the stock reply, "I control me, you control you." 7 months in we broke up fully and went NC, 10 months in we R'd, and here we are 12 months in.
CW, thank you for this, I needed to hear that I am not alone. How did your W’s resistance to boundary-making make you feel? I think I have been tip-toeing around my boundaries because I don’t want to make him angrier at me or just straight up leave. But that clearly isn’t working. And the more I look deep inside, the more I realize I probably don’t have enough boundaries.
I have been told by H so many times in the past few months that I am no longer in control. This Is typically in response to a boundary I put up or to something I ask (I am done asking for things at this point). H has classified me as a controlling, domineering, terrible person who has run the show and ruined it. I agree that I am a type a person who knows what she wants, but I also know deep down that I am able to compromise and am a team player.
I just had a really negative encounter with H and I’m trying not to cry in front of the kids...
We had a conversation about something sad one of the children said about our current situation and H accused me of lying, then got angry with me when I said that I needed to put this conversation on hold for the time being so we could both be calm. He made a mean comment about how passive aggressive I am and stormed off for the night.
For those of you who had WAS’s return at some point, were they ever really contemptuous or mean to you about the things you said or boundaries you put up?
YES.
You can read over my old threads, Sage, and see that contempt and verbal abuse and out and out meanness is something that I've had to deal with a lot from my H. He actually has improved in his area a lot and generally - almost always - speaks to me with respect now. We disagree still - neither of us are push overs and that is healthy - nobody, I don't think, is feeling controlled - but the dynamic is different. I used to measure how 'well' I was doing by how H was behaving - doing things I wanted him to do, and showing affection towards me the way I wanted to receive it. I don't feel that so much now.
We are in piecing rather than separated, so my advice might be no good, but what happens in our house now when my H has lapses and speaks to me with disrespect is that I pull him up on it, sharply and swiftly, every single time. I have a confidence in what I am responsible for (my feelings thoughts and actions) and what he is responsible for (his feelings thoughts and actions) and when he tries to put responsibility onto me - blaming me for the way he spoke to the kids when he was tired and in a bad mood, because I should have done x or y so he wouldn't be tired in the first place - I am extremely blunt with him. I used to placate him. That never happens now.
Phrases spoken by me over the last few months include,
'No, I'm not lazy. I just don't want to do what you want me to do and you don't like it. You don't have to like it and at some other time we can talk about that, but you don't speak to me that way now or ever. The conversation is over.'
'No, I am not responsible for you slamming the door and shouting at the kids. I don't control your behaviour or actions and whether you accept that or not, both of those things are in your control.'
'I don't agree with your approach here. I will be silent on it in front of the children and I won't undermine you as their father. But I will not verbally agree with you and support you when I think your actions are unwise.'
He really, really, really doesn't like it. And he also accepts it. And I am perfectly okay with him not liking it.
H did actually accuse me of lying about something one of the kids said about him. I wish I hadn't reported it to him - it wasn't necessary and it was inserting myself in a relationship that had no need of me at that point. I wouldn't do that now. But when he did say I was lying, I said, 'Whether you believe it or not, it happened,' and left it there. Defending yourself from someone who is motivated not to believe you because they don't like the way the truth makes them feel is a waste of time.
I have been told by H so many times in the past few months that I am no longer in control. This Is typically in response to a boundary I put up or to something I ask (I am done asking for things at this point). H has classified me as a controlling, domineering, terrible person who has run the show and ruined it. I agree that I am a type a person who knows what she wants, but I also know deep down that I am able to compromise and am a team player.
My H spoke those words exactly.
Now, at times, I was controlling.I used to get very upset by how he acted and he used to try to comfort me, and that was very entrenched in our dynamic and it was negative and toxic and I had a part to play in that. I was a team player about lots of things, but when things didn't go my way, I did use my emotions to get my own way and I did not respect his 'no' as well as I should have about many things. So he had a point to some extent.
At other times, he felt controlled because he blamed me for things that were actually his own responsibility. He felt - for a long time - that I controlled our family finances to his detriment. This is absolute and factual rubbish. He didn't want to take any responsibility for dealing with our finances, so I did it for the family. This isn't really a problem with us any more.
He will also now and again claim I am controlling him refusing to do things I don't want to do. At the moment I don't care to see his family. He and the children are more than welcome to and I make no obstruction to him, and encourage the children as I think it is in their best interests. He has once or twice said I am controlling his relationship with his family. I correct that (I didn't when I was DBing but I speak up more for myself in piecing as part of a 180). When he has said that I've said, 'No, I'm not controlling what you do. I am just not doing what you want me to do and you don't like it. I can't control how you feel about what choices I made for myself.'
Allison, thank you for your thoughtful responses. I am still learning how to quote, so bear with me!
"You can read over my old threads, Sage, and see that contempt and verbal abuse and out and out meanness is something that I've had to deal with a lot from my H. He actually has improved in his area a lot and generally - almost always - speaks to me with respect now."
I will read your old threads. I know that Gottman says that contempt is the number one predictor of divorce, and it has not be present in our relationship until recently, nor has the verbal or emotional abuse. But now it's like the floodgates have opened and there are is no hold back or self control on the things he feels he can say to me. I am trying to navigate this without taking everything personally and wanting to ball up and cry.
I really appreciate all the examples of clear boundaries you have shared. I am working on creating these for myself, but I find it hard in the moment not to react with shock or sadness when he pushes back on a boundary with meanness.
And another thing from your response, Allison that was super enlightening to me:
"H did actually accuse me of lying about something one of the kids said about him. I wish I hadn't reported it to him - it wasn't necessary and it was inserting myself in a relationship that had no need of me at that point. I wouldn't do that now. But when he did say I was lying, I said, 'Whether you believe it or not, it happened,' and left it there. Defending yourself from someone who is motivated not to believe you because they don't like the way the truth makes them feel is a waste of time."
How does one decide what should and should not be shared with a WAS with regards to the kids' emotional wellbeing? In my situation, the kids talk to me a lot more candidly and really don't address any of it with H. They have big questions and big feelings about everything and he has asked for me to share that with him. But when I do, I get accused of embellishing the truth, coercing the kids into thinking/feeling/believing a particular narrative or even that I am lying (NONE of which is true, BTW).
I don't want to be in the middle anymore, but I also don't want the kids to feel that they can't talk about the big stuff. So do I just stop sharing? Create a boundary around this?
I will re-read your thread this evening, but I would say that good boundaries in a WAS situation is that you go ahead as if this is a co-parenting relationship.
You give your H information about things that pertain to the wellbeing of your children, volunteering it when needed, and answering his questions directly if the information is required. If one of the kids is sick, or needs medication, or has a teacher conference, or there's a chance in schedule, you tell him - preferably in writing in a text message.
Otherwise, your children need the emotional safety of being able to speak to you. They can speak to their father about their feelings directly if they want to. You can encourage that if it comes up in conversation. If your H asks you about the kids, you can give him direct factual information, 'Susie had a nightmare last night and slept late this morning so she might not need the afternoon nap,' is fine - he needs to know this stuff and Susie can't tell him herself. 'Susie was crying last night because she doesn't understand why you don't love mummy anymore' may very well be true, but Susie can tell her father that herself if she wants to and feels safe to do so. If he wants to know about their feelings, opinions or thoughts, get him to ask them himself. If he can't have those conversations with them because there's no trust there, that is a consequence of his actions you have no business saving him from.
Married couples parent differently from divorced couples, and this is one of these differences. Let him see what his choice feels like. I know my situation didn't turn around and the out and out contempt from my husband didn't dry up until I started putting this into action, acting as if I was single and he was someone I was prepared to be friendly and civil to but no more than that.
Additionally: I speak more to my H about my feelings around by boundaries now we are in piecing than I did before we reconciled. I think it helps me and my marriage for him to know my stance on these things. When we were separated, I had better results from doing no explaining at all. If he called my lazy when we were separated, I'd have said, 'Ok, bye then,' and either hung up the phone, or closed the door. I didn't really care to have conversations with him when he was spewing, and didn't feel like wasting my time on explaining to him why I had those boundaries. (It took me a LONG time to get to this point - and some great posters on these boards getting very frustrated with the amount of rubbish I tolerated from him!) Even now, you can't explain or cajole someone into respecting you, so if I ever find myself starting to do more than a short, sharp sentence with my H, I cut myself off and leave the room. I don't attempt to control his treatment of me with my words - I just say my truth then get out of there. And thankfully it is a very rare situation.
And hugs. Yes, the contempt is very very hurtful. My H used to look at me with such disgust sometimes. I know now - because he's told me - that he felt he was defending himself against my emotions, my emotional demands, my expectations. That doesn't excuse his behaviour and he knows it, but it helps me to realise that inside that monstrous, angry, spewing man was an immature child who had no idea what to do to get his marriage on track and had no capacity to look at his own part in it so felt helpless to take action.
You aren't helpless though - not now you are here.
First off, I just want to say I empathize so much with you. I've totally been there. I know how you feel and it is awful. I wanted to share a few thoughts with you:
-- Steve85 also alerted me to the possibility of a PA. I thought there was no way it was a PA. I was totally wrong. I was glad I was prepared for it and recommend you do the same.
-- My H also did the whole rewriting of history, I was this control freak who had completely dictated every aspect of our entire adult lives. BS. For me, stopping caring that he thought that and being firm in knowing what I knew to be true helped.
-- I don't know that you need to share things about how your kids are feeling with him right now. It doesn't sound like he has the capacity to listen to it without coloring with motive from you. Can you focus on just being there for your kids without needing to count on him? Maybe before you decide to bring it up, think through the possible/likely outcomes. If you think there is a good chance that the outcome will actually be something beneficial for the kids, I'd do it. Otherwise, I'd put that energy into yourself and your children. I agree with Alison about sticking to the facts only.
-- Detaching is So. Hard. It used to drive me crazy reading all the vets saying just detach! Like it was actually possible. It seemed so far away from me, like to the level of attaining true enlightenment. But, if you keep working at it, it does come. This might be a fake it til you make it kind of thing. The other two things I'd recommend would be to really focus on yourself and get to know your own feelings and moods, so that you can start to invest more time in what helps YOU. What helped me was yoga, self-care, and the mantra over and over that I control myself, nothing else. But you should find what works for you. Also, taking time to explore what D might look like to take the fear associated with it away.
-- My H also told me I was no longer in control, that I wasn't in the driver's seat on this. True. But I was able to set certain boundaries that I stuck to (even though slightly different than those of others)-- basically that if we split up we would not be friends, and that I refused to work on our R with a third party in the mix. She had to go. He really struggled with this, wanted this fantasy D where we'd stay best friends and he'd live next door with AP. I was really clear and consistent that that would never, ever happen. I wonder how friendly you are to him in the day to day?
Hang in there. You got this. I know it is awful but you have a great resource here for you!
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
