Limbo over, now separated but in lockdown (part 3)

[Oceangl]

Wow Pommy. Our situations are so similar.

I am telling myself lately I can't fill his holes. I am too quick to let him have his cake and eat it, too. I get so excited when he throws a crumb of love at me, like a little puppy, only to feel so discouraged the next day when he throws me nothing.

I am working hard right now on not letting my happiness depend on him. I think this is good for you also. Right now you are experience the yoyo as he switches back and forth on what he wants. And you want it to work so much you (and me) let him get away with it.

IC is good. That's a good step. I just think its unfair they expect us to make up for the spark they feel is missing.

[Pommy99]

Wow Pommy. Our situations are so similar.

I am telling myself lately I can't fill his holes. I am too quick to let him have his cake and eat it, too. I get so excited when he throws a crumb of love at me, like a little puppy, only to feel so discouraged the next day when he throws me nothing.

I am the same. As much as I have tried to detach, I am so starved of affection and love, that I really fell hard for his charms last week into wanting me back, and whisking me off to bed. And after he took it away again I came crashing to the floor, worse than I have ever been up to now.

I am working hard right now on not letting my happiness depend on him. I think this is good for you also. Right now you are experience the yoyo as he switches back and forth on what he wants. And you want it to work so much you (and me) let him get away with it.

It's so hard in lockdown to not think about the M 24/7. I want to feel that I can find happiness without him, I'm sure I will, but I'm still not ready to let go. I keep thinking to myself that this person is my husband. He is still my husband. Yet for a year he has not been a husband at all. Why am I putting up with that? Why is that acceptable? He clearly hasnt wanted to fill the role of being my husband for some time now, so I'm confused as to why he is still reeling me in. I feel so helpless and hopeless and that every day now is a step further away from any reconcilliation. I feel like I'm going to have to start detaching all over again and it's painful.

I just think its unfair they expect us to make up for the spark they feel is missing.

Yes!!! I feel the same. Last week I got chastised for not being flirty/dirty/spontaneous/cheeky/seductive (or whatever other word of the moment he can find). I've been rejected for the last year and been told not to put pressure on him. I cant win.

He just has to make this decision about which side of the fence to jump, as I've now spelled it out to him that he will lose something either way, but he cant stay paralysed forever. He has more IC this week - he moved today's appt back 2 days because he had the children at his ...ugh....I hate his timelines and the fact there is no urgency.

[wayfarer]

Ok sweet girl, deep breaths.

I'm giving you a little tough love right now so buckle up. You will never be able to detach 100% ever you love him. It just doesn't work that way. He will always have some pull on you. But the point is, like Steve85 would say he can have an orgy with a dozen women, and you'd be like, oh ok. Not that it doesn't hurt. Not that you don't want to scream. But that you won't. And that you know that there's no point in losing it over him being a disappointment for the 1 billionth time. It just isn't worth your time, your energy or your sanity to spiral over his BS yet again. The point of detachment is to protect yourself. Not to be stronger. Not to appear as if you careless. To protect your heart and your mind in this process. The biggest way I've been able to be strong, and not let his every move affect me is through all this crap is not necessarily though detachment. It was finding myself again. And falling in love with me again. H's love and affection doesn't validate me in any way. Of course I miss forehead kisses and hand holding. I miss being wooed. But I can buy my d@mn self flowers. I can put make up on and nice dress for me. And maybe I can't give my self those forehead kisses but I can and do something for me to make me feel loved often. I don't think it's only detachment you need to work on. I think you still have a lot your identity wrapped up in being his wife, and therefore your perceived value is wrapped up in there too. Feeling incomplete without his love returned. I think you might need to work on loving you just a little bit more.

R is a super long process. Even longer than your exceptionally long limbo. It requires the patience of a saint. And the discipline of a Shaolin monk. Even if he had IC today, and decided to fall all in tomorrow then what? Are you going to immediately take all your walls downs? Hand over the keys to the house, your heart, your body and mind? He shouldn't be allowed to walk straight back into your life as if nothing happened. And you shouldn't be putting yourself out there to be hurt like that. He will need to take baby steps to reengage in the MR and with you. And you should be taking baby steps letting him back in so you aren't in a puddle on the floor every time something happens. Because starting fresh or mending your marriage, what have you, is a rough road. Horrible thing are said. Fights happen. People walk away from each other for an uncomfortable amount of time. It's not sunshine and rainbows and we've got nowhere to go but up from here. While things can be sweet, and fun, and fresh, you're trying to put your MR back together, there are going to be bumps and bruises. You have to be prepared for that.

Last is time. I know you've been at this an incredibly long time. And you're just absolutely tired of waiting patiently for him to p*** or get off the pot. But urgency on his end is bad. The person making the long series of bad decisions shouldn't be rushed to make one. Nor should you be pushing your agenda on him. They say LBS's have the gift of time for a reason. While H is struggle to decide what it is he wants to do exactly it gives you the time to grow, and process, and come to your own conclusions about what you need and want. And honestly I think time is a gift for you here. You are being handed more time to work on you, to figure things out for yourself, and to process what is coming. Take the gift, as hard as it maybe.

[Oceangl]

Great advice, wayfarer.

In a situation like Pommy's and like mine, I just have to work on falling in love with myself as you suggest. Being there for myself. When you are yearning for affection, I think we have to realize that in a big way we can provide that affection. Is it the same? No. But let's be honest, they haven't treated us very well. We have to be able to depend on ourselves.

[may22]

Hey Pommy,

I have an uncomfortable question for you. Are you 1000% sure that the AP is in the rearview mirror and he has not had any contact with her? My H sounded a LOT like your H and has throughout all of this. And I thought for a long, long time that it was a long-distance EA only. I don't think we'd be where we are right now unless everything had come out on the table and he dropped his "I just want the chance to be happy, I don't even know if we D-ed that I'd end up with her" to finally understanding the depth of what was happening.

And frankly, that information is what it took for me to finally say whatever, I'm done, call the D lawyer and start meaningfully planning for a life without him, which freaked him the F out and was the beginning of his backtracking and the six weeks of h3llish limbo when he was trying to decide what to do.

Anyway. I know you've said before that she's out of the picture, and it is more the idea of another person or relationship that is what is happening in his head. And you may be right. And/or, he may not actually be in touch with her but he's holding on to her as a possibility. But what I don't understand is if there isn't someone else in the picture, what has he got to lose by actually trying to work on his M with you? To go all in and give it six months or whatever of hard work? So what if you guys end up getting Ded anyway a year from now-- that just seems so inconsequential compared to really, truly, 100% knowing you're doing the right thing in getting Ded and breaking up a family.

I so clearly remember the night my H said to me for the hundredth time, this isn't about her. It is about you and me. And I was like BS-- if it wasn't about her, then why wouldn't you TRY? What have you got to lose? And he looked at me and said, fair. I was stunned as I expected him to keep on his same old horse. The truth was that he was scared. He thought he'd found with her what he felt was missing between us, and that we could never get it back again. If he ended his A with her he might never find it again and he was doomed to either a passionless M to me or a sad, lonely life as a divorced 40 something if I ended up not being able to forgive him. And, he HAD to think that rekindling the spark was impossible with me in order to justify in his own head his behavior over the past two years. My H is still working through all of this and unable to really face it.

I'm not advocating for you asking him at this point or anything... just that it worries me. I don't get his logic. (Not that any of this is logical.) If he decides to recommit to the M and work on his R with you, the worst that can happen is you both give it your best shot and it doesn't work, but you both can look each other in the eyes and know you tried. (His scenario here is he hurts you worse than he already did? I don't buy that.) Whereas if he walks away now without ever having really tried and given your M a fair shot, trying to get the romance back or whatever-- to me, that would be unforgivable. He has this storyline stuck in his head that he CAN'T regain for you what is gone. And for my H, that was 100% true when AP was in the picture. It has only been since she was completely out and a good amount of time passed, with him truly letting her go in his mind, that the romance is starting to peek its way back into our R.

My advice is generally the same as WF's-- detach, focus on you, stop worrying about what he is thinking or doing. And patience, patience, patience. He needs to figure this $hit out on his own. You can't do it for him. You can only control your own behavior. As best you can, just LET IT GO, let him go, repeat over and over that you can't control him, you only control you. So how do you be the best Pommy you can be in this situation? How do you show up for your kids and yourself? Focus on those things and let him stew in his sad little rental and figure out what he wants. If it takes too long, you just might decide you're better off without him anyway.

(((POMMY)))

[Pommy99]

WF, thanks for your long message. I need to print that out and re-read it several times a day!.

The biggest way I've been able to be strong, and not let his every move affect me is through all this crap is not necessarily though detachment. It was finding myself again. And falling in love with me again. H's love and affection doesn't validate me in any way. Of course I miss forehead kisses and hand holding. I miss being wooed. But I can buy my d@mn self flowers. I can put make up on and nice dress for me. And maybe I can't give my self those forehead kisses but I can and do something for me to make me feel loved often. I don't think it's only detachment you need to work on. I think you still have a lot your identity wrapped up in being his wife, and therefore your perceived value is wrapped up in there too. Feeling incomplete without his love returned. I think you might need to work on loving you just a little bit more.

This is so true - I am completely wrapped up in being his wife, and wanting to do a better job than I did previously, put right my worngs. I know I dont value myself enough and even though I do get up every day and try and look my best. I guess I do seek validation from outside - and I have found plenty of it from chat sites (dont ask!) but it always feels hollow, because I go back to only wanting that validation to come from H. I have this need to be validated as a woman, not just a mum, which is the identity I was trapped in for years, before realising that I wanted to be treated as a wife/lover and not just a mum. I'm really struggling to carve out an identity, other than 'mum'. I guess the goal here is to value myself as a woman , and the goal isnt about keeping my title of Mrs Pommy.

R is a super long process. Even longer than your exceptionally long limbo. It requires the patience of a saint. And the discipline of a Shaolin monk. Even if he had IC today, and decided to fall all in tomorrow then what? Are you going to immediately take all your walls downs? Hand over the keys to the house, your heart, your body and mind? He shouldn't be allowed to walk straight back into your life as if nothing happened. And you shouldn't be putting yourself out there to be hurt like that. He will need to take baby steps to reengage in the MR and with you. And you should be taking baby steps letting him back in so you aren't in a puddle on the floor every time something happens.

I thought a lot about this overnight. R actually seems very scary because it is going into the unknown. Both times that H has announced he wants to try again (once in January and again last week), I've felt overcome with fear - as in ok, we want to move forward but I've no idea how. Both times he has done a u-turn in a matter of days anyway. But it does leave me feeling uneasy about the road ahead. I dont know if that means I'm unsure about wanting to R, or whether it's because both time I've sensed thos lack of commitment from him to move forward.

I am just going to try and practice self-love as much as I can, and keep the focus on me and not spend every minute of my day feeling anxious about him! It's a hard habit to break after so long - and because he wont let me go, I find it hard to let go as well. My behaviours are still very much based on what I should be doing to get him back - should I go NC, should I remain friendly, etc - it's all still about him.

[Pommy99]

May, thank you, I wish my H was as in touch with his emotions as yours. Your H does seem to be able to articulate his thoughts well, even if his honesty with his feelings has been so painful for you. H admits he struggles to express his feelings to me. I think we are both emotionally dysfunctional in some way. I'd really like some neutral ground for us to table our thoughts and emotions, but I dont believe we're in the right place to have MC right now.

I have an uncomfortable question for you. Are you 1000% sure that the AP is in the rearview mirror and he has not had any contact with her? My H sounded a LOT like your H and has throughout all of this. And I thought for a long, long time that it was a long-distance EA only. I don't think we'd be where we are right now unless everything had come out on the table and he dropped his "I just want the chance to be happy, I don't even know if we D-ed that I'd end up with her" to finally understanding the depth of what was happening.

Nope, I have no idea how he feels about her. He wont have seen her for 10 weeks or more and he wont be seeing her in the foreseeable future either because they are 250 miles apart. I believe she is at home in lockdown with her H. I said that his R with her was something we would need to discuss and he said "absolutely if we R then I will make sure that is dealt with". So i guess he may have little to no contact but has not formally ended the friendship.

Yesterday he announced that he had applied for a job locally. I'm pretty sure he wouldnt have done that if his intentions were to get back to the city asap and see EAP. I still think he sees happiness with someone other than me, however (or moreso, he cant envisage rekindling that spark with me and therefore there is only one option).

But what I don't understand is if there isn't someone else in the picture, what has he got to lose by actually trying to work on his M with you? To go all in and give it six months or whatever of hard work? So what if you guys end up getting Ded anyway a year from now-- that just seems so inconsequential compared to really, truly, 100% knowing you're doing the right thing in getting Ded and breaking up a family.

I so clearly remember the night my H said to me for the hundredth time, this isn't about her. It is about you and me. And I was like BS-- if it wasn't about her, then why wouldn't you TRY? What have you got to lose?

I ask myself this 100 times...why wont he just TRY. He tells me he loves me, finds it hard to imagine a life without me, he tells me he REALLY wants to make it work with me...but something is missing. He has tried to talk himself into coming back - getting a puppy, buying a 2nd property...all the things that make him feel like we could plan a future toegther...but he won't take the next step. He told me that when we got intimate last week he was feeling some of the things he wanted to feel (yay!!) but there was still something not right - and that's when he finally booked himself IC. He says this is killing him as much as it is killing me as he doesnt understand what "triggers his problem". There is a deep-rooted blocker and I think it is to do with the SSM and how I made him feel. I just hope he has found a good IC who can help him work through his issues


I know I need to detach, work on me. I feel a lot better since I had IC 2 days ago and reading the replies on this board. I spent last night cosying up in my room with D14, unable to decide whether to buy me some clothes online, read a book or catch up on Ozark! I realise there is so much I can do to fill my time and not emotionally drain myself thinking about H. I'm still very much on a rollercoaster although my IC had me draw out the rollercoaster on paper and plot the events that lead up to each dip and fall. We were able to identify my and H's behaviours, and how we both react to those behaviours. It was incredibly simple but insighful. I felt more relaxed afterwards knowing that this was a pattern we have been acting out for a long time, and I think I am more aware how to behave and react in order to break that cycle. It's very much focused on me and my trajectory, and not the rollercoaster, which is H's world.

[may22]

FWIW, my H also swore up and down that he could never even *imagine* having sex with me again after the SSM and that I "broke him" sexually. He said that he had this major block around it just like your H. And then we did have sex, but exactly like your H said it didn't feel right (plus every time he'd be all mopey and guilty afterward). Now it isn't a problem anymore. (I'd like it more frequently, but I'm not pushing.)

Remember-- you didn't break him, therefore you can't fix him. (And you DIDN'T break him due to the SSM. That is BS. You are not solely responsible for the SSM and the factors that lead up to it are incredibly common. "How I made him feel..." stop. Don't let him do this to you.)

I'm glad you are having some positive work with your IC-- keep that up. I hope your H does the same and figures his $hit out. (Mine may be in better touch with his own emotions now, but he's been in IC weekly for a year and a half.) But-- your H needs to do that work himself. There is nothing you can do. This is all on him and it is not within your control. He needs to decide on his own that he's committed to figuring out his problem and what kind of life he wants to have, what kind of dad and partner he wants to be. If chasing that feeling of limerence or sparky sex or whatever is so important to him that he'd give up his wife and family to chase it... UGH. Honestly. Is that someone you want to be married to anyway?

I think you want and deserve an H who is willing to put in the hard work when the going gets tough, is committed to working together with you through problems and finding solutions as a team. I honestly believe that the spark can come back if you both are committed to finding it. But if one of the two of you (him) can't make that commitment and doesn't really believe it can come back... then I don't think it can. It takes two. He has to be in that place for you guys to actually R and I don't think he is there yet.

Finally-- he's demonstrated over and over when you lean out, he leans in. It seems like he gets scared of losing you and the family life-- that is clearly very important to him. Would it help to think about this in another way? By responding every time he leans in to you, you are enabling his continued waffling. Not only is it more painful for you, but it is just extending this limbo because he is reassured that you're still there and he can lean back out and stare at his belly button and obsess over whether he's making the right decision or not... without any consequences. It really is very selfish and I'm mad at him on your behalf.

The vets all say you have to let him go in order for him to maybe come back. That he has to experience the full depth of consequences of his decision to realize what is at stake and what he's losing. And that many WSs do, but by the time they come to that realization the LBS has already moved on and doesn't want them back. I know that it might seem hypocritical for me to be preaching this, since this wasn't the route that I followed. But-- while I didn't kick him out, I did ask him to go and he refused. I was very clear he could go, I wasn't stopping him, and I was actively planning my life without him and researching divorce. I made it crystal clear what he'd be losing if he walked. I found my boundary (which for me was him actually leaving) and stuck to it. I never, ever wavered on what he would lose. I set a deadline and I backed off and let him figure it out in his own way. (All with the help of this board-- letting him go to end his A and not actually knowing what he was going to happen was one of the hardest things I've ever done.) And of course, we aren't really piecing yet, in my opinion, and there is a giant pile of issues we need to deal with. But things continue to improve, and I do believe he made that decision to commit to the M and all that entails.

[Pommy99]

FWIW, my H also swore up and down that he could never even *imagine* having sex with me again after the SSM and that I "broke him" sexually. He said that he had this major block around it just like your H. And then we did have sex, but exactly like your H said it didn't feel right.

May, I dont even know what to think any more. After reading a couple of other threads about men turning down sex I'm starting to wonder if he actually did have a PA - I might never know. But he's turned this issue on to being about my failings - I'm not this or that (i.e. seductive sex bomb). It did used to make me feel inadequate but now I'm just sick of the constant put down.

he's demonstrated over and over when you lean out, he leans in. It seems like he gets scared of losing you and the family life-- that is clearly very important to him.

He likes to tell me and himself that it's guilt - that he feels guilty about breaking up the family. However, he just wont let go, even when I dont pursue. I get a txt every morning - how are you, have you read this in the news, etc. I will reply once but not engage any further. He called me last night - no reason, just to chat. I stayed on briefly but then ended the call as I needed to go to the shop. He tells me he's applied for a jobb locally. Breadcumbs all around!! I'm really not looking at him in a good light now. He wanted time and space to think about what he wanted - he's been gone 2 months now and he still doesnt let go of me. And in spite of his u-turn last week about coming home, he's STILL telling D16 that he REALLY wants to make things work but that he just needs some time.

He was the one who said before he left that he needs to know what it feels like to lose me in order to know what he wants, that he needs to work for me. Maybe this is all part of the test then? Maybe he is pursuing me to really test how hard he has to work. Perhaps it's time to up my game!! The question is, how?!

[wooba]

After reading a couple of other threads about men turning down sex I'm starting to wonder if he actually did have a PA - I might never know. But he's turned this issue on to being about my failings - I'm not this or that (i.e. seductive sex bomb). It did used to make me feel inadequate but now I'm just sick of the constant put down.

Pommy, regarding the PA you may never know. That's just something you have to accept. Think about the possibility, how it would affect your decisions, and let it go for now. I don't even know where my H is living right now. I've thought about the possibility of him staying with an OW, but honestly I wouldn't know the truth unless I hire a private investigator. but I choose to not go there. Him talking about your failings - this is where self-awareness is crucial. Is there some truth in what he's saying? Is it something you can work on? Not saying that you should accept all the blame, but accept the parts which you also can see that there could be improvement, work on it, and move forward. not that we're keeping count, but keep in mind that your H has had WAY more failings than you.

He likes to tell me and himself that it's guilt - that he feels guilty about breaking up the family. However, he just wont let go, even when I dont pursue...He was the one who said before he left that he needs to know what it feels like to lose me in order to know what he wants, that he needs to work for me. Maybe this is all part of the test then? Maybe he is pursuing me to really test how hard he has to work. Perhaps it's time to up my game!! The question is, how?!

I doubt that it is a "test." I think your H is just confused. I think you should just keep DBing, continue with detachment, rein in your enthusiasm when he's leaning in, hold on to your boundaries. Give it more time. have patience.