Help with WW #2

[sandi2]

OS2, if you have not read my previous post from few minutes ago, please read it first.

I don't know if you have read the links about WW's, listed at the bottom of page 1 on Sandi's Rules. It took several threads, trying to cover some things I wanted to share with newcomer LBH's, plus trying to answer those who were posting to me on the thread. The first thread is about the mindset of the WW, plus more things, too.

I wrote pretty extensively in my second thread of "Help for the Newcomer LBH who has a WW#2" on the subject of what a returning WW looks like, and caution to not take her back too quickly. There is also some great help from a couple of retired members, Wonka and Starsky, you might want to read.

Below is a quote from an anxious LBH. It may not reflect your exact sitch, but my response is close enough to answer your question. If not, then I'll try again.

It's been one month since I've seen her. Still no contact about her coming to get some stuff. What I've been wondering is how do I handle it if she says she misses me, I know the general idea is we have to wait until they are 100% committed to working on the R or M but how do I best transition that? Or do I just test to see if she's even interested in working on stuff?

Response from Sandi:

Let's break this down a bit, b/c none of this is going to happen all at the same time.

If she should make contact with you, she will probably use some excuse as being the basis of her contact. In the conversation, she may just say something about missing you. You want to know how you should respond, right? My suggestion is that you don't make an instant reply, b/c this is no big "sign" that she's having second thought or anything. It is more like her temp checking you to see that you are still attached. So what do you normally say when someone makes a statement you find very hard to believe. That is kind of the attitude you need at this particular time, that you know she is full of BS. You don't say it, but you know that's what she is doing.

I doubt you will follow my advice, but you should say, "Really!" (as if you know she's lying) "Surprisingly, I have made it much better than I would have thought".

Do you know why you tell a WW this? So she will think you are moving on........and she was the one to set you free! Even though she may respond in such a way that sounds differently, that will be what she is thinking. She has made you a free agent. This train of thought will get her focus on you a lot more than you could imagine! Do not sound like some pitiful victim that has been booted out of his M. Sound like a guy who is single and is discovering it's not too bad!

I am not sure if I understand the second part of that first question. The waiting till they are ready to commit to the M is referring to reconciliation. It is unlikely she will call out of the blue, saying she wants to save the M. However, if that should happen, do not jump at the chance to tell her, "Yes, of course!". You stall, and say something like, "I would like to believe you, however, things aren't that simple now". Then if she asks what you mean, you say, "I would have to feel I would not be hurt again, and considering everything, I don't know that I can take that risk yet". (Side note: You can even practice saying these things to yourself, if it will give you more confidence.)

By this point in the contact, you may be able to decide if she's temp checking or if she's genuine. I can assure you that if you seem excited about the possibilities of getting back together, it will turn her away. If there was ever a time to act hard to get, it would be at this time. She has to really want you back.......and not b/c she saw how tough life can be, or b/c OM rejected her, or b/c having you as plan B is safe. You want her back b/c she desires no man but you! If you agree to take her back under any other conditions, it will not be the M you want.

You are waiting to hear her ask what would it take. That is the time to tell her the conditions, and don't tell her before she asks. The conditions should be that she writes a letter to OM, stating that she made a terrible mistake by ending her R with you, and that she does not love OM and never wants to have contact with him again. She tells him she loves you and wants to work on her M. She writes this in her handwriting, no email or text, not even typed out. She gives it to you to read before mailing it. YOU mail the letter, not her.

She agrees to your transparency plan, not hers. She agrees to get tested for any STD, with you going with her to the doctor. She agrees to attend MC sessions with the therapist you choose.

I am probably leaving something out, but you get the general idea. There is a lot to consider when reconciling, or you will have a repeat experience in all probability.

A few things to look for, which are essential. One, is she remorseful? If not, don't waste your time. Does she get an attitude about any of the above? Has she apologized? How willing is she to do the necessary work? If she balks, accuses you of controlling, starts giving you her conditions of coming back, tells you that you'll just have to trust her, or any excuse for not fully cooperating with everything you want........then she was not really ready.

See what I mean? There is more involved than her simply missing you. And btw, it may take a long time for her to really miss you. Know the difference here, missing you is one thing........willing to do what is necessary to save the M is quite another!

OS2, I want you to understand that most WW's think that they can simply waltz back into the home on their own terms. They think the LBH wants her back too much to ask questions, much less throw out any terms. Never allow her to come back calling the shots. I promise you it will be disastrous. She has to agree to your terms, okay. She's the cheater, not you, and if she has the chance.....she'll try to twist things around and pull you into her terms. Humility is key, and if it's not genuine, it will quickly show in her attitude. That's why you need to give it some time, before agreeing to take her back.

Don't say anything to her about what I'm sharing with you, okay? WW's are great actresses b/c they are deceivers. It's no problem for her to turn on the tears........but if you can't tell the difference in true remorse and in her putting on an act, then it's best to stall and tell her you would like to believe her, but you aren't sure. She cannot put the spotlight on herself.....like a pity party, or start naming your faults. Nope, none of that stuff. If she is genuinely ready to be a good wife to you, then she will show signs of repenting.

If you are still not convinced, then taking time to date her would probably help (if she's ended her affair and is willing to follow your terms of reconciliation). Never date a WW who has not ended contact with OM. Dating would only be in order when you are working toward reconciliation and she's on the same page.

[OS2]

Thank you Sandi, it's difficult to know what stage we're both at but that's very helpful. I would say she's been very remorseful and offered several sincere apologies. Oddly enough the bit that hasn't been forthcoming (willingness to do what is necessary, agreeing to terms) is the bit I've probably pushed most on, although she's said she would now do that (without me asking). I suppose that's either because she wasn't ready to let go of EA with OM or was seeing what she could get away with. It's difficult to know exactly what's going on behind the scenes and I've made peace now to not ask or investigate but that makes everything a bit more tricky. Would you ask for transparency for a period before she comes home? Would you want commitment for a period of time from all those points BEFORE having W home?

There was a lot of emotion and apology early on and she wasn't looking after herself very well for a while but it seems she is trying to move on from the A and not dwell on it (it has been discussed a lot) which is difficult for me as I feel we both have healing left to do and I feel I need to still see her remorse, even though she still apologises for it and says how bad she's been. She also said if we can R that we not talk about it apart from during MC. I think it's wise to not apply any pressure and let her come to her own conclusions though.

I'm still detaching and GAL, she's now messaging me a lot, calling me etc. that I'm answering only when I have to. Yesterday she came to find me at work which has never happened before and said she wanted to see me as I wasn't responsive to messages. She said she is looking for a house because she can't stay at her mums anymore. I think there's some truth to that but mainly an excuse to see me and temp check I think. She's looking at me differently though which is the biggest sign so far. I feel she's nearly ready in her mind but I won't apply any pressure and will try and wait longer than I feel I should. And all those points need satisfying before anything.

[sandi2]

it's difficult to know what stage we're both at but that's very helpful. I would say she's been very remorseful and offered several sincere apologies. Oddly enough the bit that hasn't been forthcoming (willingness to do what is necessary, agreeing to terms) is the bit I've probably pushed most on, although she's said she would now do that (without me asking).

You cannot pressure her to reconcile. That doesn't mean that you have to back down from your terms to her coming back. Know the difference? It's very important that you understand you can't apply emotional pressure and drag her back into the MR. When talk of reconciliation comes up, you tell her the terms, then she is free to accept them or move on. The fear a lot of H's hold, is that she won't agree to the terms. Think about it, do you really want a wayward W back, if she refuses to the terms I suggested?

She has to be free to make the choice to come back. With that said, let me clarify that you are allowed to have stipulations about reconciling. She probably won't love the idea that she can't throw in her own terms for you, but it's her choice to agree, or move on without you. If she really wants to reconcile, then she has to agree to your terms. That's it. Don't wait until she's back home until you tell her. If the WW is remorseful, humble, etc., and truly wants to save her M, then she shouldn't have that big of a problem with the terms I've suggested. If she does have a huge problem and balks, let that be your warning bell.

It's difficult to know exactly what's going on behind the scenes and I've made peace now to not ask or investigate but that makes everything a bit more tricky. Would you ask for transparency for a period before she comes home? Would you want commitment for a period of time from all those points BEFORE having W home?

Why would you consider taking her back, without checking to see if she's still in contact with OM? There is a difference in gathering enough Intell to determine if she is still seeing OM, from snooping to read her email every day. Maybe that sounds as if I'm trying to talk out of both sides of my mouth, but LBH's get addicted to snooping, and then they have a big problem. All you need to know is if she & OM are still in contact. Once you know that she's still in contact with OM, there's no reason to continue gathering Intell. Beyond that.......it's just plain old spying, IMHO. Listen carefully, do NOT take her back, until you know she has ended the affair. At this point, you still can't afford to believe anything she says.

I've read about one other couple who divorced and then the WW wanted them to see if they could "work things out" or start over......whatever. He insisted on a transparency plan, which I didn't see how it could be effective with them living apart.........but she agreed, and eventually, she slipped up and he was savvy enough to catch it while digging through buried emails. So, he said good riddance and dropped her.

It's not enough for the WW to show you her phone, b/c that's just way too easy for her to manipulate the messages she doesn't want you to see. IMHO, all she needs to is "agree" to being transparent, and to giving you her passwords to her phone, email, etc. She may ask when you will look, or even "offer" her phone, but you never tell her anything. You don't tell her when you are going to look at her phone, and you don't tell her to go get it, or to show it to you. Why? B/c she has the opportunity to delete anything she doesn't want you to see. You don't look at her phone every day, nor at the same time of day. At some point, she'll lay her phone aside, and you will have a chance to look, without her knowledge. Why do I suggest without her knowledge, and why isn't that snooping? First, it isn't snooping if she agreed to it. And the reason you don't give her notice, or "warning", that you are about to look at her phone is b/c if she's being dishonest, you won't likely catch her on her phone. You have to be smarter than she is.

In 2020, there are many apps that provide services for cheaters, and you may have the opinion, "If she wants to cheat, she'll find a way". That's true, but the point of a transparency plan (from the viewpoint of a former WW) is to help her get through the horrible withdrawal stages after contact with OM has stopped. I went through withdrawals for months! However, I finally beat it, with the help of my board friends and knowing my H was searching my comp history. Sure, I there were other ways I could have contacted OM, but I didn't. And here's the thing, I wanted my H to see that I had really ended it. I had nothing to hide, so why should I mind?

Transparency doesn't have to last forever, but it's up to you to decide how often and for how long. Some H's go for a couple of yrs without looking, then decide to check.........and there it is. She has deceived him again. She gets use to him not looking and not saying anything about it, and she thinks it's clear to pick up old behaviors.....like cheating. It's very important that she has no idea when, or if, you'll check her phone. And the beauty of it, is that every WW will eventually get careless. She may be smart, but she will get careless.

I think you ask some valid questions about transparency and commitment before she moves back home. If I was the LBS, I would need verbal commitment before I agreed she could come back, plus her agreement to the other terms. I think having time to date each other, is okay, as long as it is exclusive and she's not trying to date others. You could ask if she would agree to transparency before she moves back, and if she'll give you her passwords. This is key, b/c she'll claim you are wanting to control her (which is the mantra of most WW's, and it's mostly hogwash). She'll complain that it is intrusion of privacy, etc. (which is true), but that's why it is a noteworthy sign that she really wants to prove herself. It may, or may not, take. If she doesn't want to do it, that's her choice, but you won't reconcile without it.

Is all of this as clear as mud?

[OS2]

I've had a bereavement in the family this week and it’s changed my DB game a bit because W came over after hearing about it and I’ve seen her the last few days.

When W left after BD I wanted to get her back and the M back on track. And when I found out about the A I thought initially it was all over and I was going to be moving on. Even though before I felt like I had partially come to terms with the possibility of an A before BD (but had dismissed it as unlikely). After finding out, the emotions for W (that I think were partially residual from her leaving too) pushed me into thinking I could fix it (typical man) and get the M back, and perhaps we’d be happier overall. In the process of doing that I applied pressure (often unknowingly).

When W moved back in she said she felt that she had to do that otherwise she was going to lose me as I’d told her I would probably move on if she didn’t want to try. Since finding out and trying to fix all this I haven’t been sleeping properly at all. I asked W to move out as above for a second time because she didn’t hold up her end of the R and honestly I didn't get all the right signs either (thanks for confirming those Sandi). I detached, and am still not replying much. She has complained at the lack of contact.

Since she left for the second time I’m sleeping fine again, and I think that’s because I was pushing for something that wasn’t being returned and she felt pressured to try. I also wasn’t taking any time for myself to come to terms with everything - even though I had time I wasn’t using it. W seems happier and healthier now than she has looked in weeks. I don’t ask where she is/where she’s been and avoid R talk. I think she is either feeling the benefit of less pressure and R talk or more space with OM? I would like to think the former but I don’t know.

W is enjoying less stress from talking about the A and feeling pressure from me although says she misses me a lot and thinks about coming back all the time. She talks about the future what she’d like to do with children, and planning on where we might live etc. What’s weird is a big gap in the middle because I feel the present is currently missing and we’re not talking R any more. It’s starting to make me complacent and uninterested. Almost like she's picking the desirable bits of her future (stability, kids, etc) without having to put the effort in now. When W was over this week after the bereavement we kissed a bit and she has started kissing me when we've parted of her own accord. I don’t know whether I should let that continue because I don’t know status of OM but I think it’s a good sign (and I think the first physical thing she’s done without me suggesting/initiating). Should I be putting a stop to that and stating I need R first?

I think she’d like to move to us ‘dating’ but I don’t think I can honestly do that without R. Otherwise I’d worry I might be settling for scraps and crumbs if I’m not careful. With ‘dating’ she gets my involvement and attention which I don’t want to give without commitment. On the other hand I don’t want to apply any pressure. OM works away usually but has been in between jobs and has been living close by for the last 6 months. I will be suspicious if him leaving coincides with her wanting to come back. She told me the day after I asked her to leave she would do all the transparency etc but I don’t want to rush anything and get it wrong. She also says she’s confident we’ll get back together but her slow pace is turning me off. Should I detach/NC again or stay semi-available to see what happens? I suppose if it progresses I'll just have to state that I'm not ready for that yet until she is ready to commit?

[OS2]

W has asked if I’m busy tonight after little contact (from my side) for a few days. My instinct is to be busy tonight? She tries to get close and cuddly when she comes over but I think I need to think about some new boundaries because I’m not getting any commitment.

[SteveLW]

W has asked if I’m busy tonight after little contact (from my side) for a few days. My instinct is to be busy tonight? She tries to get close and cuddly when she comes over but I think I need to think about some new boundaries because I’m not getting any commitment.

You are ALWAYS busy. So yes, your instinct is correct.

Head says you are busy. Heart says you want to see her and accommodate her. Always go with your head.

[sandi2]

I've had a bereavement in the family this week and it’s changed my DB game a bit because W came over after hearing about it and I’ve seen her the last few days.

Sorry for your loss, but how does seeing your W the last few days change your DB game? It seems when she showed interest, you want to pull back, and maybe vise versa.

What’s weird is a big gap in the middle because I feel the present is currently missing and we’re not talking R any more. It’s starting to make me complacent and uninterested.

When you use the R abbreviation, do you mean relationship or reconciliation?

She told me the day after I asked her to leave she would do all the transparency etc but I don’t want to rush anything and get it wrong.

So, has she agreed to everything except actually committing?

She also says she’s confident we’ll get back together but her slow pace is turning me off.

What are you calling slow pace? You just said you didn't want to rush anything and get it wrong.

Should I detach/NC again or stay semi-available to see what happens? I suppose if it progresses I'll just have to state that I'm not ready for that yet until she is ready to commit?

No, at this point, I would be upfront and tell her what you need from her, if she's seriously talking about coming back. If you want commitment, then tell her you won't reconcile unless she commits to doing the necessary work to save the M. If you need more time, then tell her.

And what if she tells you she is ready to commit? Will you be turned off? Will you feel you must take her back?

IDK, but you sound a bit confused to me. If you aren't certain where things stand with OM, or you aren't sure about your feelings.......then I'd suggest you tell her you need more time to think. Nothing says you have to agree to reconcile right now. I don't think I could, if I wasn't sure the affair was over. And, if OM has just recently left, she will have "withdrawals" coming her way. There's nothing wrong with her pursuing you for a while.

When I see a woman wanting to date her H before they reconcile, I suspect she wants the romance, but maybe it's her way of testing the waters. I wouldn't date her while she dates other men.

Don't do anything until you feel you are ready.

[OS2]

When you use the R abbreviation, do you mean relationship or reconciliation?

I mean reconciliation, but could have been both. I asked her to move out because she wasn't willing to do what she'd said and it felt like she was uncomfortable. I stopped talking about both but because of that it has felt a little like we've been drifting and almost like she's off the hook.

So, has she agreed to everything except actually committing?

Yes, the following day after I asked her to move out she came round and said she was willing to do what I asked. I felt that I had only just asked her to leave though and despite what she was telling me she had moved back in for the wrong reasons anyway/prematurely so I didn't want to jump at that, but rather thought more time was a better idea. Asking for space when I had been the one applying pressure was quite a shock for her I think and she's been showing more interest in me since. In the longer term that has proved to be the right thing to have done I think as I feel I've had more time to stop and properly deal with things. Space has also made me contemplate life without her and convince myself that while hard I could do it and be successful in whatever happens. Out of your R list, she has showed remorse and sincere apology (on a number of occasions), and taken responsibility for her actions. She's explained how it led to that point but has said it didn't excuse at all what she did, and she repeats how badly she has acted. She has stated a few things she wants going forward if we were to R. She has said she would agree to my terms. I was hoping she would try and actively win me over, although my detachment has brought her closer and she feels I'm closing her off. I'm getting caring/loving daily messages from her trying to get my attention.

Should I detach/NC again or stay semi-available to see what happens?

No, at this point, I would be upfront and tell her what you need from her, if she's seriously talking about coming back.

I feel now might be the right time to talk about R if she is willing. She's wanted to see me a few days and I've said I'll see her tonight. She phoned me last night (which I answered to her surprise) and says that she feels like I'm trying to block her out of my life and that she misses me. She said she feels things are different now.

And what if she tells you she is ready to commit? Will you be turned off? Will you feel you must take her back?

I don't feel like I must, no. But I won't be turned off either. I've been preparing for the worst actually since she moved out which has helped me be more relaxed about it. There's still a lot of hurt and pain and although in some respects she appears to have been moving on from the A I need her to keep appreciating what it's done to our M (I know in the books it says don't worry, she won't forget it in a hurry!) and all her effort to make it work again and make a success of it. I still love her though and want to make it work, but I won't take anything other than total commitment because I know it won't work otherwise and I won't put up with any half measures.

[OS2]

W came over, discussed R. She said she's confident we can make it work, she's going to think about moving back in 'soon'. I gave no pressure. Makes me wonder why she's putting it off now, feels like she's running down the clock on OM being in town. Feel I need to work out whether OM is still on the scene in order to decide what to do next.

[LH19]

OS,

I’m afraid you don’t understand the dynamics here. You go from asking for space so you can think about what you want moving forward. Supposed no contact to which you lasted maybe a day? A now she’s back to calling the shots and will think about moving back soon wtf???? Plus you think OM is in the picture still?

Again you hang on her words and yet ignore her actions. I’m not gonna lie. In my opinion you are moving backwards.