Riding the Wave 2

[wayfarer]

I'm just gonna start this with I see the newish IC tomorrow. The old IC has been officially dumped. I thin because I went longer than I usually do between sessions I'm spinning more than usual.

(((wayfarer))) what's your line? When will you stop being friends with him-- when he moves out? That's been my line too, and I know my H doesn't believe me that I'll really stop being his friend if he leaves. (Maybe he does a little, but that is what he is saying to me.)

Do you still feel like he's a little off-- a photocopy of a photocopy?

What can you do for YOU during this time?

If I'm honest with myself I have no idea what my line is here. The line early on for me was if he went and file for a D or we got to the point where he forced me to file a D it wasn't just friendship over. It was scorched earth. You're dead to me kind of over. I think we're still kind of there. However, if/when he goes soon I know that I won't be readily available to him pretty much ever. But I have no idea how to navigate that line especially with him seriously reengaging with the girls and really working to actually co-parent not just tag team parent. He insisted on joining me for parent teacher conferences for D17 even though I said "You don't have to. Did this years before you alone. I can do this." He said "I'm coming, it's fine." And that was the end of it. My daughter needs him in her life. She had a bit of a, we'll go with, break through with me this weekend about it. And a lot of her anger and resentment toward him is that he's kind of been for the lack of a better term neglecting both girls until very recently. Navigating co-parenting with her bio dad is easy. The state gives me his money. He interrupts our lives occasionally, but for the most part I've been mom and dad until H came into the picture. With D15's mother starting to get her life together we/he may not have her full time any more and I don't know how I fit in there. I don't know where the line between cordial and friendship is going to begin and end given our unique circumstances. I don't even know how to begin navigating that.

He still feels off. But more and more like himself. He started as a person who just looked like my H. Then he became a person who is pretending to be my H. I still feel like that, but since the fight he's become so much more like himself. Less pretending. Less like a photocopy of a photocopy. More like the photocopy but no where near as crisp as the original.

I have a lot of plans this week. Partially on purpose due to the holiday, partially because it's just how my calendar worked out. I'm trying to stay busy, and to stay away from him a bit right now, because it seems like he seizes every opportunity that we're home together to be in my space.

I’ve written a few letters in the beginning thinking that I’d want to show H. Some were about me, some were about him. I’m glad I never did. Because with time my mentality has changed and I’m still seeing things differently or more clearly. And with time I also feel more strongly that he would not be receptive to anything from me. Not that he would be offended or anything, I think things would just get lost somewhere and my good intentions would not make it to his brain.

I've written and re-written a letter to him several times. I've written letters to her too. I journal a lot. Not just here. The writing soothes me. There is a version of a letter to him in my head that I would like to give him. I'm hoping at some point I can string the words together in the way I want them to. Where I open my head and my heart, where I don't excuse his behavior but understand. Where I let him know the door is open but I don't know for how long. I don't think he'll be receptive today. But I do think he will be. I think we're getting closer to the point where he wants to know even if he isn't going to do a thing about it. Just to know. Because the fact is my heart doesn't want to let him go, but I have no problem cutting people out of my life and never looking back, and if that's what I need to do I will. He knows that. Hes the kind that always looks back and wonders what if. It's who he is.

I feel exactly this. I feel like H needs to leave in order to break the limbo cycle that we have been entrenched in for so long . I have envisioned myself in a little house, without him, and it feels calm. However, like you, I am so drawn in by him and feel like I am under a spell. I want so much not to love him. And sometimes I don’t know if I do, or whether it’s habit, or fear.

Your H sounds confused, as Wooba says. I’m not a believer in always listening to your gut. The cycle of thoughts driving feelings, feelings driving behviours, behaviours driving thoughts - you can change the cycle. Why do you think he will definitely leave? Is he making plans, is he looking for somewhere? And if he does, it might give you room to breathe clean air. I’m telling myself that if it happens to me, it is not a bad thing for me or H. Keep strong as you are doing great !

I can tell you with certainty in my case my love for this man isn't fear or habit. His love isn't comfort. Frankly loving him hurts like h3ll. He might have been lying when he said I was the love of his life but I wasn't. Someday maybe I'll get over him. But I don't know that I'll ever get over us, because what we had wasn't perfect, but it was pretty great.

I see that life without him too. It is calmer. It's quieter. But it's emptier too. Not so much like crater but more like an odd middle piece in a 500 piece puzzle. Like you know exactly what should be there, but it's just not and there isn't much you can do to fix it.

I know he's confused. I also know OW doesn't know he's sitting and watching movies with me that he asks me to pick. Or that he is coming to parent teacher conferences. Or that he still walks around me in his underwear. Or that he likes to chat before we go our separate ways at night, and likes to make sure we say goodnight.

As far as moving out goes. I'm a person who even though I'm highly logical tends to run on intuition. I feel my way through people and relationships. Mostly because my intuition has taught me to believe what I feel before I believe what's being presented to me. That hasn't failed me yet. He hasn't said he's looking at places yet, but he's started to bring things home to pack. No packing though. I don't know if his April 1 date is going to be the actual day but he'll go. I don't know how to explain how I know. I just know him. He's made his mind up about it. Even if he lies awake the night before he moves thinking it's all a huge mistake he'll still go. And I do stand by him leaving is probably best for both of us. I need some time on my own to decompress. I don't know how he could possibly miss me when under my roof he's trying to keep me as much in his life as I'll allow. He and I don't have a chance of coming out the other side of this unless he goes. He needs to chase this happiness he thinks is out there. He needs to fall on his butt doing so or there will never be any kind of reconciling. As the fog is lifting a tad it hasn't lifted far enough to pull him out of limerence only far enough to let him see I'm not the villain he was trying to make me. He won't see the extent of it's me(him) not you(me) until he's alone on a Sunday night.

[may22]

Hi Wayfarer,

I don't know where the line between cordial and friendship is going to begin and end given our unique circumstances. I don't even know how to begin navigating that.

This is hard. I don't have any answer. i have thought about this a lot too, though. It seems like in reading through other threads where people are in this stage, a lot of times they're either super cordial, maybe too friendly and the WS (seems like usually WHs) at least externally seems fine with that level of interaction, or text-only and the WS is annoyed and picking fights.

I have a lot of plans this week. Partially on purpose due to the holiday, partially because it's just how my calendar worked out. I'm trying to stay busy, and to stay away from him a bit right now, because it seems like he seizes every opportunity that we're home together to be in my space.

This is terrific-- I'm really glad to hear it. My guess is by the end of the week you'll be feeling a bit better with this new normal, more settled and focused on you, less on how he is knocking you off balance. I have no doubt you will reach your new plane of detachment soon-- it just isn't a straight line, especially when your H's behavior keeps changing. Also, maybe doubling down where you can on being there for the girls, since they need it too, maybe especially your biological daughter since she must be feeling really scared and awful right now about what the future might hold since he's become such an important piece of her life too. (That makes me mad on her behalf, honestly.)

I don't know how to explain how I know. I just know him. He's made his mind up about it. Even if he lies awake the night before he moves thinking it's all a huge mistake he'll still go. And I do stand by him leaving is probably best for both of us. I need some time on my own to decompress. I don't know how he could possibly miss me when under my roof he's trying to keep me as much in his life as I'll allow. He and I don't have a chance of coming out the other side of this unless he goes. He needs to chase this happiness he thinks is out there. He needs to fall on his butt doing so or there will never be any kind of reconciling. As the fog is lifting a tad it hasn't lifted far enough to pull him out of limerence only far enough to let him see I'm not the villain he was trying to make me. He won't see the extent of it's me(him) not you(me) until he's alone on a Sunday night.

As a fellow recovering control freak my default would be to spend some time thinking about what that situation might look like, to prepare myself for it coming and not be caught off guard. I don't know if that is the right move, for you or for me. But to the extent you feel it is inevitable, maybe being secure with your own responses when the time comes will be helpful. I know there are financial considerations too that make both that timing less than ideal but also sooner even less so, so it isn't like you could accelerate anything. Can you take the girls away for a girls weekend or something, just the three of you having fun for some breathing room? It might also help his D to reaffirm you and your D will always be family for her no matter what.

[wayfarer]

This is hard. I don't have any answer. i have thought about this a lot too, though. It seems like in reading through other threads where people are in this stage, a lot of times they're either super cordial, maybe too friendly and the WS (seems like usually WHs) at least externally seems fine with that level of interaction, or text-only and the WS is annoyed and picking fights.

I don't know even know what stage we're in at this point. We're already past text only and picking fights. He literally will follow me around the house to talk to me like when one of the girls desperately wants to tell me something about school. He's been getting really liberal with showing me his phone. Honestly his behavior prior to "I'm moving out" and the I'm moving out fight was very standoffish or completely absent. He before wouldn't even be in the same room as me unless he was forced to. He was gone more before than he is now. Same thing about the way he talks to me. He jokes. He flirts. He's kind. Before is was vitriol or silence. That's its. He's changed the narrative too. In a month's time we went from I never really loved you to of course I loved you. I still care about you, that's why I worry about you. And gets teary eyed when I tell him him looking me in the eye and saying he never loved me was by far worse than the affair. I don't think we were really in limbo before. I think he was sure he was leaving because I was the devil and our marriage was a sham. I think we finally entered actually limbo now. And it's awful.

This is terrific-- I'm really glad to hear it. My guess is by the end of the week you'll be feeling a bit better with this new normal, more settled and focused on you, less on how he is knocking you off balance. I have no doubt you will reach your new plane of detachment soon-- it just isn't a straight line, especially when your H's behavior keeps changing. Also, maybe doubling down where you can on being there for the girls, since they need it too, maybe especially your biological daughter since she must be feeling really scared and awful right now about what the future might hold since he's become such an important piece of her life too. (That makes me mad on her behalf, honestly.)

Its one of the things that brings me to tears in front of him. Not much else does. But her and how heart broken she is that gets me no matter how much I don't want him to see me cry. I do usually get a hold of this with in a week or so but he keeps changing the game on me so fast I'm struggling to cope. But I'll get there eventually.

As a fellow recovering control freak my default would be to spend some time thinking about what that situation might look like, to prepare myself for it coming and not be caught off guard. I don't know if that is the right move, for you or for me. But to the extent you feel it is inevitable, maybe being secure with your own responses when the time comes will be helpful. I know there are financial considerations too that make both that timing less than ideal but also sooner even less so, so it isn't like you could accelerate anything. Can you take the girls away for a girls weekend or something, just the three of you having fun for some breathing room? It might also help his D to reaffirm you and your D will always be family for her no matter what.

I am prepared. I should say we D17 and me are prepared. D15 is too. She's been reconnecting with her mom a lot. I think her plan is to err more to placement with her mom until things settle down with her dad. I've sat down and worked out my budget at least within a range because I have no idea what auto insurance and a few other things are going to look like when we separate. D17 and I made plans about redecorating our rooms, and maybe a few other home projects, that I've told her her BF will need to help with because she's just not strong enough to lift some things. I've continued cleaning and organizing and I have basic idea of what I'm willing to part with for him to set up his new household in just about every room of the house. I repacked all of the the things in the basement so that his and D15's things are in separate totes. I'm not hoping for a self fulfilling prophecy here, I'm just unwilling to be "caught off guard" like you said. As far as the trip it's something I considered, but I think I'd rather do it this summer when we are actually in separate households.

I'm just getting to the point where this is all so exhausting. I just want a stiff drink and a nap. And to look at him and say, I'm not going anywhere so if you change your mind you know where to find me.

[cardinal]

Hi, wayfarer. It really sounds like you are doing all you can do to take care of yourself now, and to prepare for one possible future. I hear you on the need for a stiff drink and a nap! I feel like I need several straight days of napping, staring at TV, napping, staring at TV. Just no brain work or life work or interaction with anyone, no expectations at all.

I hope the IC you're seeing today is much more helpful for you than the first one.

[wayfarer]

So my IC appointment is actually tomorrow morning. I have so much booked this week that I mixed my days up. But I have the rage room booked for me and my girls tomorrow. I'll have lunch with them since they are off school, then rage room. Then later mani/pedis with my best friend. And dinner and drinks at her house since I can walk home, lol. Think I'm saving that bath and bottle of wine for Saturday night when I know he'll be with OW.

It was Tuesday so he obviously was with OW last night, but woke me up this morning before he left to talk about D15s doc appointment on Friday. And just messaged me about dinner tonight. People who stand for years, and watch their spouses spin like this for years my hat's off to you. I still love him against my better judgement, but god I wish he'd get out of my space. I'm starting to seriously miss not speaking at all. I had breathing room. His nights out with OW are so calm and quiet. I'm getting to the point where this April move out date feels more and more relieving. I just need a break. He needs to work out his confusion and crisis in his own space instead of like on top of me. The more he pulls towards his old life, the more annoyed I'm getting with him. I thought I would be elated, and rush to lap up any and all attention he's throwing our way. I mean I'm happy for our girls that he's swinging back around to them. But this jokey, buddy buddy stuff with me I'm not exactly elated about. I would really like to be in a place to have more control over my interactions with him. Our house is so small it's hard to escape him. And now that he's decided I'm not some evil vindictive wife I'm being barraged with small talk.

Like waking me up before he went to work. Or Monday night after my dance class he stood out side the main bath while I did a face mask and dealt with my crazy hair, making jokes. I was standing there bra less, green faced, and pinappling my hair in a scrunchie and thinking, Why? Why are we doing this? Acting like things are the way they were? When you're going to go lay on the couch and talk to her, and I'm going to fall asleep to ocean sounds alone? And why can you stand there and make jokes while I look like Shrek but when I go out looking good as h3ll you won't even lift your eyes? And conversely make sure I acknowledge you before you leave so I know that you'll come home that night or on the rare occasion not? I realize how one sided standing is. I know that waiting on them to come back to reality is an arduous journey and there's very little reassurance in it until you find the end. And through it all I've made huge strides finding myself again, but my old self wants to tell him to stfu and go talk to his gf if he wants to chat. It's getting harder and harder to get her to quiet down and acquiesce the much more zen grown up version of myself.I don't know. I think I'm just hitting another grief phase, maybe revisiting anger. Or maybe it was because I was woken up at 5:30am for absolutely no reason. Who knows?

[may22]

Hi Wayfarer,

First of all... Ugh. the 5:30 unnecessary wake up. That would infuriate me. My H used to kiss me goodbye if he had to leave really early when I was still sleeping, which would inevitably wake me up and then I couldn't go back to sleep and would be so, so pissed at him. Ha. Now I feel kind of guilty about that.

So a few thoughts-- first, your week plans sound awesome. yay! second, I totally hear you on the annoyance that he's leaning back in in so many ways except that giant most important one. I think it is OK to be annoyed and to let your old self shine through here. How can you not let yourself be in those situations where he's being buddy-buddy and all up in your space? Some ideas I had when reading through your last post include:

- close the door to the bathroom. Don't give him that access-- you deserve to face mask in peace. (This is something I've done too for the same reason. And I know he's like WHAT is she doing in there??)
- get out of the house on the nights you know he'll be there. He can make dinner for the girls or his bacon sandwiches or whatever. If you haven't read through Caligirl's thread you might... she was the MASTER at wafting out the door all dolled up as soon as her H walked in. I know you've done that too and it might be a good time to amp that back up, both for DBing purposes (you know you got pretty strong reactions to that in the past) and so you don't need to put yourself in a position where you feel annoyed and resentful that he's cake-eating. Also, he sees you. He's just pretending not to look.
- are there other ways you can retreat when he's in the house so it is harder for him to engage? Listening to a podcast with your headphones in is always a good one.

I guess generally-- if you don't feel like engaging with him in the buddy-buddy stuff, then don't. Then when you do, like having a family dinner with all four of you-- relax and have fun. Same if he calls you to vent. If you're up for it and want to listen, do it. If you don't, let it go to VM and he can be in a bad mood when he gets to OW's house. You get to decide exactly how much of the friend Wayfarer he gets right now, and you are under no obligation to be his friend if you don't feel good about it. (I know this sounds weird coming from me but for the most part I *can* relax and have fun with H and not feel annoyed about it. When I do feel angry or resentful, I simply don't engage.)

[cardinal]

Same if he calls you to vent. If you're up for it and want to listen, do it. If you don't, let it go to VM and he can be in a bad mood when he gets to OW's house. You get to decide exactly how much of the friend Wayfarer he gets right now, and you are under no obligation to be his friend if you don't feel good about it.

may's advice here immediately made me think of your comment on wooba's thread, wayfarer. If you're not always available to vent to, maybe he won't be able to walk into OW's house in complete fantasy mode, having left all his "real-world" worries with you. Too bad! But, yes, I agree that you should decide based on what you're up for. You can control how you respond when he's hoping to vent or come at you with more small talk.

Rage room and mani/pedis! I love it! It's like you're hitting the full spectrum of self-care/GAL there.

[may22]

How'd your IC appointment go, wayfarer? And the rage room and mani-pedis and dinner and drinks? Hope it was all amazing and you were able to get some stuff off your chest in the morning and then just relax and enjoy your girls and your time with your friend. Hugs.

[wayfarer]

I legit had soo much on my calendar this week between work and life that I realized I misspoke. Actual valentines is rage room and mani pedi day.

It’s been weird couple of days so I haven’t been keeping up with my mess. H followed me around again last night wanted to talk about a friend making passive aggressive posts on social media. We had a long discussion about how I agree it’s inappropriate but we had a small tiff as to why. He was of the belief that our problems are our problems. I kindly informed him he put OUR friends in a position to pick sides. He wants to be out in public with OW most of his friends have removed me from social media so as not to out him like I don’t know or maybe it’s a protecting me thing whatever it maybe. But my friends can see everything he’s doing. I asked What did you think would happen? You put our “problems” on display, people make decisions. I said I asked you to be discreet for this exact reason. I said I’d talk to her because you are right it’s inappropriate but you need to get your head out of the sand and just because in this house we’ve come to find a peace recently literally no one else has and this effects more than us in these 4 walls. And you need to realize actions have a ripple effect. He said he hadn’t thought about things like that. He would appreciate if it would stop though. He shifted gears quickly and wanted to know what my plans with the girls were for valentines because he wanted to take them to dinner. Small talk the rest of the night.

IC went great. She’s so fantastic. And deals in the realm of reality. Old IC kept making boundary suggestions where the end point was me kicking him out and even though she knew my history with law and that I knew everyone’s rights including I don’t have the power to remove a person on the lease she wouldn’t back pedal. I brought that up when new IC asked why I left and she assured me that she’s not a lawyer but she specializes in couples so she know the legalities broadly and would never suggest things that are actually hollow threats. We talked about goals. Caught her up to speed. Everything about this just feels better.

Tonight H and I went to parent teacher conferences for D17. A few awkward silences in the car but other than that was super normal. He picked up desserts for all of us at the bake sale while I talked with another mom. Jokes, people watching, talking to D17 together when we got home. H was little cold and crabby compared to yesterday strangely. But since he’s been asleep in the recliner since 7:30pm I’m guessing it wasn’t me. His phone is buzzing away and he’s sleeping right through it. Makes me smile because let’s be real as above it all as I want to be I’m never going to fully shake that little bit of petty.

I’m super ready for this weekend and just a whole crap ton of me time.

[wooba]

I was standing there bra less, green faced, and pinappling my hair in a scrunchie and thinking, Why? Why are we doing this? Acting like things are the way they were? When you're going to go lay on the couch and talk to her, and I'm going to fall asleep to ocean sounds alone? And why can you stand there and make jokes while I look like Shrek but when I go out looking good as h3ll you won't even lift your eyes?

LOL. You crack me up. I’m telling you.....I’m way past the “show him you best and leave him wondering what you’re up to” kind of DBing. I don’t give two sh1ts about what he thinks of me now. Some days I like to be pretty, some days I just don’t care. But once in awhile I will be petty and wear something I know is irresistible to him but he can’t do anything. Like our last episode. He was talking D but I knew he was checking me out. In the end he couldn’t help it but to hug me by my waist from behind. In return, I handed him a bag of trash to take out on his way out.

The small talk- I still enjoy somewhat of our small talk when it doesn’t loop back to craziness. I feel a sight inauthenticity, but I choose to receive it as a positive interaction. Not towards recon or anything, just sort of having a nice chat with a neighbor kind of thing. I welcome the few mins of pleasantry. But just like talking to a neighbor, sometimes I rather be left alone. And you can find ways to politely exit the conversation just as you’d with your neighbor.