Standing vs standing still

[may22]

Hi FlySolo,

Couple of thoughts:

My H is very similar in that (besides yes, was a pilot, though not anymore) I think if he walks he will *need* to prove to himself for a good long time that he made the right decision. It is such a major decision and affects other people in such profound ways that I can't him doing anything that major and being willing to admit to himself that it was a mistake. That is simply not in his DNA and I suspect the same with yours as well.

There are probably ways in which his life *is* happier, simpler, easier now than before. There are probably ways in which it isn't and there probably is a side of him that is deeply regretting the choices he made, but he can't admit that or otherwise it means hurting you and the children was not necessary and the guilt involved with that is probably too much for him to bear at this point.

Here's my question for you. (This is not DB.) What do you have to lose by telling him, in person, how you feel and saying that paragraph that he ignored from your email? If he is as stubborn and proud as you say, he is not going to be the one to say it first, and maybe too proud to respond to it in an email. But if it is your truth, and telling him will let you know you can indeed move forward with formally separating or filing or coming to a decision on the house etc without regrets, I would do it. As long as you can take whatever he says without getting emotional and can then move onto the questions of the house and other decisions that need to be made, and that you aren't coming across as pushy, or begging-- just calmly stating where you are, so that he knows. (BTW I would think setting on this one would be important, making sure the timing is right, he's not tired or crabby or whatever.)

Another idea... I don't recall if you guys were ever in MC or not, but maybe you could suggest a visit or series of visits specifically to work out the communication around what happens next. I know some folks do that in the mediation process but I also know that there are MCs who will work with couples who are separating/divorcing on their communication, and this could also be an opportunity for you guys to explore if this is indeed the right step for you given where you both are right now, and with the decisions that need to be made on the house.

What if you mapped out like a logic model all the different paths you could take and the various potential outcomes? Are there any you are vehemently against? Would talking to him and telling him how you feel possibly send you down a path you don't want to go?

It seems like you are stuck. if he is really done, maybe you need to hear it from him in order to let him go and move on emotionally and be receptive to the idea of an R with someone else. Maybe not. But if you're feeling where you are is no longer tenable, what are the things within your control that you can do to possibly move you forward?

Finally...

Is the increased willingness to communicate him getting comfortable that limbo is coming to a close or is it him getting uncomfortable that limbo is coming to a close.

Does it matter? You might only know if you ask. (But the weird thing is that his stance on the house seems like he is trying to extend the limbo. What does he expect you do to in this situation? Moving back in does seem rather logical *if* he was willing to do so.

HUGS. This has got to be so difficult.

[Yail]

I remember what it was like back then. He was so suspicious of me (where are you off to tonight, you're never home anymore, you don't spend any time with the children, you're always doing yoga) and there he was messaging and drunk dialling the school secretary. Such a two faced hypocrite.

The gaslighting. I think most of us have experienced a touch of this. Projecting their guilt, but we feel like the crazy ones. I hope in time you are able to release this visceral memory. Mine is becoming fainter, if that helps to know.

I am still stuck. I now have friends I can call on, and I am comfortable being alone. But still I am stuck and closed off to the possibility of a relationship with anyone but him.

You mention being stuck only as it relates to your H. Are you stuck in all areas of your life? Or just this one area?

I am not sure what the answer is ... other than I can only go with how I feel and how I feel is not interested.

And that's okay. Many days I am also uninterested, and our situations are different. You don't have to be interested in someone else and it doesn't make you broken or stuck. It's just what you're feeling right now. It really is okay.

We're different now than we were before this started. Maybe part of the process is that we must spend additional time with ourselves before we become interested again. I don't want to just toss myself (my former self) back out there and make the same mistakes. Maybe I need more time to enjoy learning about this new Yail. Maybe you need some time to discover the new DV, and that might be a quiet process.

Besides, it is WAY more interesting to learn about the new DV being uncovered than learning about any potential new lover.


*******

I'm glad H is more communicative. I'm not sure that the reason matters. If it is suiting your needs (lessens your anxiety and fear of the unknown, allows you to know where he's at, makes coparenting easier) then this is a very good thing no matter what the outcome. Accept his openness. Bare minimum you get is an improved coparent which is an AWESOME thing to have.

I'm glad you put yourself out there in the letter. Now you can simply keep moving forward with the decisions that suit you. You can continue to discuss the house. But you don't have to wonder if he knows. You don't have to have the fear of putting yourself out there - you did it.

I'm hearing small steps forward with some of the fear missing from your prior posts. A bit less fear of the unknown. A bit more trust in yourself. I'm sorry you feel stuck, but I think you're close to being unstuck. I think you're actually moving forward in a measured, calm pace. The scenery is just similar right now.

[dillydaf]

FS: it seems like the stuff about the woman at school really triggered you, that's very understandable! It's surprising the amount you can still suffer even after standing all this time. But I feel like you're bouncing back. Your H's behaviour is perplexing, the way it can be interpreted as wanting D and R at the same time. He's certainly not willing to let go right now is he? You talk about moving on as if it has to involve another R: does it? I know how lonely it is to stand, and how hard it will be to trust people in the future. You dated before and realised you weren't ready, you still aren't. I feel like you need to heal a bit more before you're ready for a new R, maybe that is why you have no attraction to other men right now. I have no advice, just empathy for you with H clinging on as mine is. Maybe at some stage we will shake them free when we're ready. Thinking about time is not that helpful here, I know you need to resolve the house stuff but you can do that and stay in limbo a little longer. The gift of time, remember. We get impatient, but it takes time to heal and it takes time to unravel a M properly and forgive. And it's not a linear process. I was talking to a bloke the other day and he told me about his sister, she lives with her current H and her ex-H. I could kind of understand how such a strange situation could come about! The bond you have with your spouse is so strong I'm not sure you can ever break it. Make the best house situation you can whilst assuming nothing from your H. Keep on healing. Be patient. Life moves on by itself even when you are standing still.

[FlySolo]

May - I read through the entirety of your last thread and every sentence (apart from the PA) resonated with me. I think the differences lie in your H recognises and articulates he still wants you in his life, that he still cares. The other difference is right until BD, he hadn't stopped seeing me s a 'partner'. We were regularly intimate and it was not just a 'we should get this out of the way' type of intimacy. He didn't see me as someone he still wanted in his life, the mother of his children, he saw me as a lover.

I'm not sure how far back on my thread you've read, but I was the one who triggered BD. He was sullen and angry for months, but it was I who said there were problems and "we should separate whilst we are still friends", "and young enough to rebuild" and it feels like 'we are just going through the motions of being married' that very first argument. I don't know why I said it, maybe to shock him into realising what was in jeopardy. He kept going back to those words during MC (yes, we went) saying that these were the very words that went round and round in his head. He hadn't thought them himself - he knew he was unhappy - but hadn't attributed a story or cause to that feeling. I handed him the story and he ran with it. Got more and more angry as the months went on. Couldn't look me in the face, and if he was forced to, it was either with a look of hatred or disgust - unless I'd somehow managed to get him to have sex with me, in which case he would look me straight in the eyes through the whole thing, and what I would see was confusion, sadness and love, and when it was over, he would tidy himself up and pretend it didn't happen. Now, well, I think he is in the same place as your H. He wants me in his life (though can't articulate it) but even if he wanted me to be his W again he would never admit it. The story about the crazy stalker lady highlights how much he has hidden and how far he fell but he will never say anything because it 'goes against his DNA'.

Sidebar - his response to "whilst we're young enough to rebuild" - "you're already thinking about being with other people". A touch ironic looking back now.

What do you have to lose by telling him, in person, how you feel and saying that paragraph that he ignored from your email?

I take your point, telling him in person will make him respond. But is ignoring the "I love you" not in itself a response? I don't know, I will ponder it. There is fear there as well. If it's written, then I have the time and space to process. If we do it in person and he rejects me, I will be exposed. I may revert to begging and pleading and crying. Fear.

We did do MC. When I could get him to go (which was infrequent, we cancelled more than we attended) I sat there and watched him process and find a home (me) for his unhappiness. He was building the hate narrative in front of me. Cherry picking the worst parts of our marriage, and poisoning the good parts. When I called to cancel our last ever appointment, the MC said she didn't think she could offer the flexibility (in terms of schedule) demanded by my H and that was the end of that.

I like your idea about the parenting/communication counselling. But we communicate fine when it comes to the kids and we are the poster children for co-parenting so it will be a difficult one to sell without it seeming like there is an agenda, especially now that I have let him know I still want to work on our M. I will think about it some more.

Yes, he is trying to extend the limbo. He has given me a host of reasons (house value is too low, the effect on the girls and their schooling, I won't find anywhere else cheaper that is of the same quality blah blah blah) which actually are valid so it is difficult to see if he is thinking with his rational brain (finance/children) or his emotional one (I want them to stay in the house because that keeps FS there and everything will be as it was if I return). Probably a bit of both.

The gaslighting ... Mine is becoming fainter, if that helps to know.

I'm glad yours has faded. You never talk about XW anymore and I guess this is partly because she is no longer a presence in your life (something you feared for a long time) and nor do you need her to be. You were forced to cross that bridge (she moved away) and found that there was nothing to fear. It is an inspiration though Yail. I love reading your posts. Even the melancholy full of flu posts.

I don't think he will ever be a non-presence in my life - so the only person who can choose to cross that bridge and face that fear is me.

I am only stuck as it relates to my H (though this has a lot of 'strings' that come off of it - where I live, my GAL schedule). I am fine in other aspects. Work, whilst still uncertain, is going well, I have a social life and my kids are doing OK (for the moment). I guess it is fear again. Fear of never being able to open up to another person.

I will ponder telling him in person. I don't know if the opportunity will ever arise. We are rarely in the same room alone - I had to ask him to come into the study in order to have the conversation about the crazy lady.

[FlySolo]

I have been lurking this past week - and I have to say the support overall that women (and men) in this community give to one another is inspiring. There has been one post that put me off posting, and that might be why it's taken a little longer to do this update. There was a comment about being annoyed at how some women here ruminate about their H's. This felt insulting somehow and whilst I don't think it was addressed purely at me, it did feel a little insulting.

This should be a safe place to think about our sitch's - to consider, to seek advice, and to vent and so for a large part this means the focus is going to be on our WAs. It is a healing process and what I am seeking, and also (hopefully) provide) is validation, an occasional 2x4, and the odd congratulation for things that go well. We have all been where the other stands and it is surprising to me when I read posts which are obviously lacking in empathy and compassion. Yes, some of the 2x4's are painful, but these too are delivered with empathy and compassion and the wellbeing of the poster in mind.

*******
Anyway, journalling:

Things seem to be going at some speed at the moment and the moment, if I am honest the pace is being driven by me. I think the house will likely be sold, and the separation finalised by the summer (if not the divorce). I am the driving force behind the sale, he has put up objections at every. He clearly wants to have the children more (next months schedule includes one full week plus 8 additional random days spread out over two weeks - 1 week he is on call and cannot have the children), but whether this is to up his days in preparation for mediation, or because he truly wants them, is unknown. Bit of both. He was always a family man and I sense that now he has lived the 'single' life for sometime, he has found it empty and wants to focus on his family (this is probably exacerbated by the sense of losing the home/me). I do not think he found what he wanted, so he is trying to salvage what he can without admitting fault or facing his own guilt.

Where does this leave me. Accepting of my fate, whatever that is. Trying not to push too much in one direction or another and trying not to be driven by anger (which is actually a problem right now).

It is strange, he acts like he is fine about selling the house and I act like I am ok with him having the kids more. I send him a message saying "I'm preparing the house, do you want x" and he replies, "Sure - just put it in the garage" or he sends me the roster (the one with the kids staying with him 15 nights) and I say "Perfect. Thanks".

[may22]

Hi FS,

Hoping you are doing OK and want to just say that I (and many others) are here for you. I am going to read through your whole thread-- I don't think I started at the beginning. I think our Hs are very similar in a lot of ways, and if mine does decide to go he will be very much like yours, unwilling to admit, ever, that (if) he made a mistake.

Can you talk more about the anger? Are you not OK with him having the kids more? (No judgment, I wouldn't be either... I am actually haunted right now by the idea that if I just say please go I'll get a better deal on the back end in terms of the house and the kids when he's still feeling guilty). Or is it more generally to be in this situation and his unwillingness/inability to really examine what has happened and if this is the best path for all of you-- including the children-- going forward?

Any positives about the house sale? Any ideas about where you want to live next?

[FlySolo]

No need to read my threads from the beginning. I think the summary at the start of this thread pretty much covers it.

I have been here a while now and your sitch I think most resemble mine. I wish I could give you sage advice from back then. I will say you are handling it with a level of intelligence, dignity and humor that, when I was back in your shoes (pre-moving out) I could have used. I was an emotional mess. But then, at the time, he was a hate spewing monster. My H does not have the level of emotional development that yours has. I don't know if it changes anything, they are so similar in so many other ways, but it does give me hope for you that your H looks within and wants to articulate his feelings (even, if those feelings are all 'me, me, me' and what he needs. Mine just ran away.

I will respond on your thread later today re him 'seeking closure' with the OW. I have views, not to dissimilar from others, but my perspective (given I think your H is a good but confused man and the likeliness that once he has set out on a path he will, cut off his own nose, rather than admit a mistake) may be slightly different.

The angry beast within

I am not by nature an angry person and all this time I have led a mostly passive/calm non-reactive life. Apart from the odd passive aggressive response, or vagueness (how he hated this) about my own activities, I gave him his space and did not pressure in the hopes that he would realise what he was giving up and make moves towards R. I let him be and (as Yail once said) ignored the slings and arrows and just calmly floated along. But I did not set clear boundaries. I let him presume he could change plans and tell the children about the changes before speaking to me, I let him come and go as he pleased (making half-hearted pleas to respect my privacy) and (once I'd stopped going dark'ish) engaged with him as if we were friendly neighbours. I let him dictate the terms of our relationship. And I am angry about that because I feel that he was pulling the wool over my eyes all this time and I let him.

In my third IC session this week I broke down and said I felt betrayed. After pushing all this anger down for so long and making excuses for him, I hear myself throwing bombs across the wall we've both erected between us and watching as it explodes at his feet. Pot shots which don't serve anyone. Passive aggressive and hurtful. It's not all the time, but it's there. I am hurt an finally I want him to see I am hurt. It is not healthy and I need to get a handle on it.

his moving to have the kids more

I don't know how I feel about this. On one hand I am glad he is having them more as it frees things up for me (and he is a good father) and although I know it's unhealthy thinking, the more he has them, the less time he has to engage in self destructive behaviours or commit to a relationship any sort. I also know that the more he has them, the more we cement this 'separate' lives thing. He is getting the family life he seems to want, just without me. The move to have them more often is him running back to the family life he actually loves and misses. He knows what's important. And I am not important.

How do I feel. Left behind. Angry.

I wish he would do some reflection, but I don't think his ego could cope with it.

the house sale

I love my home. I will never have another home as beautiful. But I will leave it behind because it is what is needed right now. I am angry at him for putting me in a position where I have to sell my home and I have to feel guilty about it.

I've been reading through some old threads and found an interesting one where it discusses the pivotal 'event' which forces you to see things as they are and really let go of hope. I don't know if I am there yet, but a number of things have happened in the last month which have opened my eyes. He has not done the work, and even if he was willing to do the work, he would never admit fault - without his ability to own his mistakes then there is no future. There has been no growth for him.

[Yail]

FS, your pause from posting was noted, and thank you for sharing why you chose to take it. We know this isn't the first time this discussion has popped up in my (our ) time here, and it seems to be circulating on a few folx' threads. A lot of us share your views that we are all here in the name of healing. If we can't talk about (and sure, maybe even in some instances over-analyze) our WAS then we are going to implode. Perhaps some people would do well to analyze and think a bit more critically instead of going for the sweeping generalizations and assumptions about their WAS. And it's my opinion that it's better to talk here with folx that have a bit of understanding as to where you're coming from, instead of chatting our our private details with every friend/family member in our real life.

I let him be ... and just calmly floated along. But I did not set clear boundaries. I let him presume he could change plans and tell the children about the changes before speaking to me, I let him come and go as he pleased (making half-hearted pleas to respect my privacy) and (once I'd stopped going dark'ish) engaged with him as if we were friendly neighbours. I let him dictate the terms of our relationship.

This stood out to me because it highlights and area in which I have been making suggestions to folx, but from a very different perspective and perhaps I'm missing something key. I never had the opportunity to set boundaries, because it was such a quick departure. So for me, my best way forward was to just let go as soon as possible and learn to live my life.

But most folx aren't in that situation. So the letting go (ie detachment, releasing expectations, not betting on an outcome) is critical, but not while simply letting the WAS completely off the hook in terms of respect or basic communication. I think this experience is one I really need to keep at the forefront of my mind because it's not the experience I'm familiar with, but it is the more common story.

It is not healthy and I need to get a handle on it.

Are those your thoughts, or your ICs? What if it is healthy, and we are just trained to believe that it is not?

I'm just asking the question. If you've subverted your anger and hurt for so long, perhaps this is how you "need" to get it out to not incite further trauma on yourself.

I love my home.

I get this. I understand this so much. Love, while painful sometimes, is still the best place to focus our energy. So love your home, even as you let it go.

And I do believe you were the one who pointed out to me that Home is something we create. You are in the fear stage I was in a year ago. I will remind you: Home is built in a myriad of ways in so many varied places. You can and will build a home again in a different house. Love and respect your house as you depart, but don't fear loving something new because you WILL.

I will never have another home as beautiful.

Can I be blunt and just call BS on this statement?
In all seriousness, again - I hear you on this statement and feeling. But you are writing a fictional future, and you get to instead live a real life ahead of you. Who knows what treasure you get to unearth and discover along the way!!


Much affection towards you FS. You helped me so incredibly when I was facing some of the fears you are currently facing. Don't forget that. You have that same wisdom you gave me inside you - turn it on yourself! And I hope you care for yourself as you move forward

[may22]

Thinking of you, FS, and wondering how you're doing. I also want to agree with Yail about never having a home as beautiful... in fact, reading Yail's posts about her new apartment had given me a whole new perspective on moving on and what life could be like in the future without H. I think that was the first time I really started to see the positive side of being on my own (thank you Yail). Maybe you can put your sadness about the house in a box where you can visit it and honor it when you want to, but also feed your adventurous side by looking at home listings and cruising on Houzz and other sites where they have amazing before-and-afters on tiny budgets, so that you can also imagine what you could do with a fixer-upper (rather than get depressed about what might be in your budget range). Not sure if this is helpful at all, but I looooooove real estate porn and it always gets me thinking about future possibilities rather than getting down about today.

Don't feel guilty about selling the house, though. This is NOT on you.

[FlySolo]

Can I be blunt and just call BS on this statement?

Yes - you are absolutely right. And reading back it does sound like I was having a little pity party for one. It is beautiful and I will NEVER have another as beautiful. All this is true. But whilst I live here it is a prison. I have been trying to focus on the positives of selling. Independence, a mental shift from living in the past to looking towards the future. It is starting to sink in. But that old gremlin, the one that says if I sell it then the road back becomes less paved, rears itself and I put it back in the box and focus on practicalities.

If you've subverted your anger and hurt for so long, perhaps this is how you "need" to get it out to not incite further trauma on yourself.

My IC said something along the lines of anger doesn't help anyone but this was in response to my telling her that I have been throwing grenades over the wall to provoke him. We are about to go into negotiations and she is afraid my emotions will make me say or do something which would harm me financially or in regards to the children, in the long run. She is right. I have always preached fairness when it comes to finances and the children but I feel that my anger could lead to petty squabbles. We have been (so far) able to maintain an amicable relationship - but that is because of me. I have let him have things pretty much his way. If I start acting irrationally now, he will retaliate. He is the type who would like all the chocolates in the box just so no-one else will eat them (true story from his childhood).

So instead I am refocusing the anger. Using it to motivate me to push forward with the house despite the guilt.



May - I know it's not on me. But it feels that way all the same. I am pushing through the guilt because I know it needs to be done. And yes, I love house porn too. When we were redecorating the house (it took us 6 years to complete as we went room by room) I spent every lunch hour looking at Houzz. There was a lot of love put into it. My love, not his. He was involved in the execution and trying to keep me within budget. He never got involved in the design/thought process.

**Journalling

It is half term here and H has taken the kids away for 10 day. They left yesterday. I was going to go away, but he mucked about with the days so much that I wasn't able to book anything. Instead, I am using the time to prepare the house. I've bought boxes ready to box old toys etc and have booked a skip to throw out any old rubbish. There is nearly 20 years worth of memories in this house, cards, books, old bits of paper, electrical cables, pens that don't work and towels that have long lost their luster. I am getting rid of it all. Freeing up the physical clutter in the hopes it will unblock the emotional/mental one. He is not happy about any of this, and he is not making it easy, but I know it needs to be done.

I am missing the kids. They have gone away with him and I had gotten use to it. This time seems different. Maybe because he is pushing to see them more or he is taking them away for longer than usual. I know instinctively this is him trying to hold on to them (the last symbol of family that we have now that limbo is nearly over and the house is probably going to be sold) but it hurts.

He sent me a pic from the plane saying 'All settled and ready to take off' and I sent back a curt 'looks like they're happy'. He tried to keep it going but I stopped responding after the first message. Today I sent him one asking if they could call me once they woke up as I was missing them. He replied sure and then updated me on how they were on the plane and sleeping last night, I responded with a 'thanks'.

I don't know how to engage with him anymore. We are on the verge of getting divorced and it seems fake that we interact like we're good buddies.

On that note - I have the first mediation session this week. I don't know if it works the same in the US, but over here, instead of going to court, you can settle things out of court through a mediator and then just get it signed off by a judge. The first session is on my own, then he has one, then we do the remaining sessions jointly. If we can't come to an agreement then we go to court.

He did say something strange yesterday when he came to pick the kids up. D13 lost her airpods when we went to lapland last year and she and I went halves on a second hand pair. H found the original pair in one of D13's jackets about a week ago. I put them in a drawer and said D10 could have them when she is bigger. When I looked the other day they were gone. I asked him yesterday if he had taken them and he said yes, he took them for D10 but she didn't want them. I asked him to bring them back. Later, D13 asked him the same question (I was in the room). He said they were in his car. I reminded him to bring them back and he got all stroppy and said 'I told you I would bring them back. You don't need to remind me. I know where you're mind is going'. Now, I have no idea what he thinks I was thinking - which actually was, stop taking sh!t from my house without telling me - but suspect it has something to do with money.