I found out because I initiated an R talk a few nights ago where I told him I didn't want to continue living like this with him still in contact with AP, that I thought we needed to S in some way. When we were talking at some point I said "if you f** her, we are done forever. And he said, I have, May. And it has been going on since we first met.
First I'm very sorry you had to hear that, talk about kicking someone when they're down! But I suspect he only disclosed it because of what you said. "We are done forever". So he thought "perfect, I'll tell her and then I'll sit back while she does all the work for me to end the M." I know it's easy to get emotional but try to reign in what you say to him. Don't make idle threats because he will call you out on them! And then if you don't follow through it makes you look powerless. Like telling him to get out, you can't legally kick him out. So if you say "get out or else!" and he doesn't, then what? Again it just makes you look weak and powerless to him. Actions have a big impact, words don't.
Originally Posted by Woosa
At the end of the day, he is still the father of your children. I struggle with that too, knowing that H has turned ours lives upside down and for me to continue choosing to be the lighthouse....whether that is the right choice.
That is a big part of our struggle as LBS's- reconciling the person they are with the person they were. Are they sick and just need time to "get well"? Is the old spouse still in there somewhere fighting to get back out again? Or have they changed forever? If only we could answer these things. My friend reconciled with his WAS in 2 years, and she is the same person she was before her "crisis". My neighbor reconciled with his W after 6 months and she also returned to her old self after a brief GGW stint. My XW on the other hand never did return to who she was before, she's a completely different person now. All we can do is give it time to see where our WAS is headed. How much time is up to each of us, but the more time you give it the better the chances of recon.
Granted my WAH moved out but the ultimate detaching came when I filed for D. Please protect yourself if he can lie to you for 2 years you have no idea what else he is hiding or will hide once reality sinks in. Lawyer up while playing nice nice.
Holy cow May. So many hugs. I cannot even believe the last few days you have endured. I'm so proud of you for being a strong, confident woman who knows her worth.
H is quite obviously messed up in the head right now. He's spinning and has been living a double life. Claim whatever it is that you want in life. If he proves worthy of working on things in the future, and I have a strong feeling that will not be anytime soon (despite his adorations and attentiveness right now).
I agree with U, mainly because you have kids involved. Protect yourself. I like your letter that you wrote and put in the ornament box. Even if he never reads it, if it helped to give you some closure in moving forward it's all that mattered. I hope he gets his head out of his rear and knows you're serious about confidently strolling out of his life and I hope that you truly mean it. Either way it works out in the end May will be absolutely happy in life. May is already an amazing mom, a sincere friend, and flippin hilarious.
Sending you good vibes.
KG
LBW 32 - me WW 31 T 7 M 4 No Kids 4 dogs
Separated 1y Navigating the mine field and GAL with or without
May - You sound like you have a fairly good hold on your emotions despite the turmoil of the last few days. We went through Christmas a few years ago soon after BD and it was terrible. There was no affair, but my H was conflicted (he wanted to go, look at apartments, then changed his mind, then changed it again). It was a horrible time and to have to grin and bare it for the sake of the family really really took everything I had.
I want to talk about the kids.
My H (like yours) loves his children (D10 and D13 - 8 and 11 when it happened). One of the reasons he was so conflicted was the potential harm him leaving would cause to the girls. Each time we came to a place where he was ready to leave, he would come back and ask "do you really want me to go?". I'd always say "No, I want to try and fix us", but then we would end up in the same place a couple of days later (me saying "we can't go on like this" and him responding "I'll leave then"). This cycle continued until he moved out (3 months later).
The constant tension was h*ll on both of us and even though we didn't shout or row in the front of them, they knew, and it was h*ll on them. My take-away: both parents loving their children is not enough if one parent already has one foot out the door.
As a side note: the last time we really felt like a family was the night we told the children he was moving out. We did it together. We told them simply that mummy and daddy were not getting on and we needed time apart. We all hugged and, quietly, both asked "how long?". It still breaks my heart as we couldn't answer the question then, and it has been nearly two years now.
If you do get to a point where you both decide it is best if he moves out, then here are the conditions I set when my H moved out (not that I had a right to put down conditions):
1. We tell them together. 2. We didn't place blame on one another - the children didn't need to be burdened with my feelings 3. He got a place with two bedrooms and we tell the kids two weeks before he moved out (so they didn't feel like he was telling them then walking out the door). 4. In the two weeks be take the children to the apartment and they helped him decorate their room. They needed to know that he was making space for them. 5. We don't bad mouth one another in front of the kids.
None of the above is aimed at an R. It is aimed at making sure your kids know they are loved by both parents.
In regards to him staying or going, every sitch is different. Would the outcome be different if my H had stayed?. I don't know. I do know that I am more at ease with him not being here and he now treats me (more) like a person.
Only you know if you are better off with him staying at home or not. I will say don't draw lines in the sand and set conditions on him staying unless you are willing to live with the consequences of him breaking those conditions.
I suspect he only disclosed it because of what you said. "We are done forever". So he thought "perfect, I'll tell her and then I'll sit back while she does all the work for me to end the M." I know it's easy to get emotional but try to reign in what you say to him. Don't make idle threats because he will call you out on them! And then if you don't follow through it makes you look powerless. Like telling him to get out, you can't legally kick him out. So if you say "get out or else!" and he doesn't, then what? Again it just makes you look weak and powerless to him. Actions have a big impact, words don't.
Hi AS, I would agree, except that I had given him plenty of chances to tell me that earlier, all along, where I'd said similar things, and he never did. In fact the main reason I thought it *wasn't* a PA is that I knew he knew if he told me, we'd be done, so why wouldn't he just tell me so that he could get what he wanted?
I'm trying not to make idle threats. When I told him I thought he should move out, I really thought he'd say yes, that is for the best. He'd told me a couple of months ago "I'm thinking about moving out." So when I finally asked him to I was astounded that he said no. i haven't said "get out or else..." but when he said he wouldn't move out, I asked him what his solution was and that is when we started talking about him moving into the basement but definitely out of the bedroom (which has happened). However, now he wants to take it slower, and plus his parents get here next week and are staying in the basement which will make this all difficult.
Originally Posted by Woosa
At the end of the day, he is still the father of your children. I struggle with that too, knowing that H has turned ours lives upside down and for me to continue choosing to be the lighthouse....whether that is the right choice.
Woosa-- Yes. That is so hard. To be honest, I don't feel like I *need* to make a decision right now. I want to focus on myself and my kids and just BE with this new information for awhile. I feel that would be waaaay easier if he wasn't around, but it doesn't really seem like that is going to happen without something really major at this point.
Kas/U/KG, I haven't yet consulted a lawyer but I've identified a couple to meet with, and read up on divorce laws in my state. I'm planning to do that next week. I went through all his work credit card bills last night when he wasn't home and found nothing weird. I was bracing myself for expensive dinners but there was really nothing-- the two nights I know they had dinner together there were charges at a restaurant but for not much $$ at all. Maybe they split the bill? Whatever, I don't really care-- but I think I would have been pretty mad to find expensive restaurant charges on his business account. There is nothing on our shared cc.
He actually came home when I had out some files on my retirement account. He looked at it, sighed deeply, but said nothing. I went and put them away and then he said down right next to me to tell me about the drinks he had with our neighbor (fun gossip).
FlySolo-- I really, really appreciate your post. The kids are the very top priority for me and the only time I cry or get really emotional is when I think about them. It is really helpful to hear how you were able to navigate all this in the best way possible for them. I know that he would have left already if it weren't for them, and we agree that they are our #1 priority. (He wants our #2 priority to be that we work this out together, no matter where it leads us (R or S), but I told him I'm not there yet.) I'm copying your post to my phone and the rules about how to tell the kids. (I still have some unworthy desires to make him tell the kids he is leaving mommy because he doesn't love mommy like that anymore. I am not to the "mommy and daddy both agree this is for the best" point quite yet.)
One difference in our sitch is that we get along great. There have been a few days of serious tension since BD2 but most days we can laugh and have fun and snuggle with the kids together. I'm confident they would be blindsided by this. Maybe not a year or so ago, when we were fighting all the time and you could feel the resentment rolling off him in waves (all now colored by this new knowledge he was in another R at the time) but we've worked through most of that and except for the whole part about f**ing someone else and lying about it (haha) he is actually being a great partner, kind, funny, generous, doing his fair share (sometimes more) of the housework, etc. It was not this way a year ago. If he had BD'd me then, I would absolutely have filed for D and gotten temporary orders to kick him out of the house, because he was an angry, depressed, resentful person who was h3ll to live with. Now that is mostly gone.
Originally Posted by KristinG
H is quite obviously messed up in the head right now. He's spinning and has been living a double life. Claim whatever it is that you want in life. If he proves worthy of working on things in the future, and I have a strong feeling that will not be anytime soon (despite his adorations and attentiveness right now).
KG, you and your sitch have been so much in my head these last few days. How are you? I am really proud of you for taking back your power and it has been soooooo interesting to see the pursuer/distancer dynamic start to come into play in my R. He continues to be very attentive. Yesterday he texted me to see if I wanted to meet him for lunch with the kids. I said no thanks. Then he texted me to say they had a lot of leftovers and he could bring them to me for lunch. I said no thanks.
Originally Posted by KristinG
I like your letter that you wrote and put in the ornament box. Even if he never reads it, if it helped to give you some closure in moving forward it's all that mattered. I hope he gets his head out of his rear and knows you're serious about confidently strolling out of his life and I hope that you truly mean it.
I'm glad I wrote the letter-- it did really help, and it also somehow felt more real because I actually was able to put it somewhere that he'll find it at the right time. Now it is buried in a box deep in the basement and won't come out for another year-- it is done and can't be changed (I mean I *could* go dig it out and rip it up or whatever, but it feels like it is out in the universe now and will come to him at the right time). It feels like letting go.
I honestly don't know if I'm confident yet strolling out of his life-- and the truth is he'll never be out of my life b/c of the kids. I'm so weirded out that now he is putting R back on the table as a possibility (and I think it is just a carrot to draw me back in as Plan B. I keep saying I don't know if that is what I want right now given everything). I think the sex thing has really thrown him for a loop. He says he is seeing a whole new side of me that he never saw before.
I feel like I need to stay strong and continue to distance myself and work on the exit strategy, but at the same time I don't see a viable possibility for getting any real distance from him (moving out/to the basement) until after his parents leave, which is like 3 weeks away.
We only have a few days to work some stuff out before they get here and I really would like some level of clarity while they are here. I have been saying I don't want to commit to working together with him on a path forward without knowing she's out of the picture. He thinks that isn't my decision to make and something we need to come to together. I said I know that isn't in my control but walking out or forcing him to leave is, but that I wasn't sure yet I wanted to do that, so we are kind of at an impasse.
Here are some thoughts of things I can DO in the next few weeks:
-- yoga, meditate, read, hang out with girlfriends-- GAL as much as I possibly can
-- consult with an L or two (I read somewhere on here that you should meet with the three best Ls in town because the two you don't pick are conflicted and can't take your spouse's case if it gets there-- does anyone know if that counts for the free consults or did you need to pay them?)
-- focus on the kids
-- continue to treat him with distance and detachment, zero emotion, but kindness (I need to read up on that loving detachment thread
-- continue to think about and get more comfortable with various permutations of S and D, and all the positives that will come with being on my own (get a dog! whole closet to myself! no more need to take H into any decision making! etc.) Work on who I want to tell and what I want to tell them about what is going on.
-- realize it is out of my control whether he continues to speak with her or not. My trying to get him to stop in order to do XYZ is just another form of trying to control him. (I know several of you have been telling me this for awhile. Just takes some time to sink in.) If he does, he does. So what? It doesn't change anything. I can decide to worry about it or not. It doesn't mean I'm open to long talks about next steps, but I can just let it go and *be* while I think about what is going on and what I want to do next.
-- assuming he tells his parents some acceptable version of what is going on (that he really screwed up, not just "May and I are having problems) maybe I'll take a weekend away by myself while they're here. That way they can see the kids, I can remove myself from his presence and the tension of trying to be happy family when his parents are here. I just don't want them to think I'm being rude if they don't have some inkling of why I would want to do that.
If I can look at the time they're here as a time to focus on myself and think about what I want to do, regardless of H, I think I can handle it. I'm just not able to say GTFO right at this exact moment, with his parents on the way and without real preparation for the kids of how to handle it all. (Blu, I feel I might be disappointing you right now. I do consider myself a strong and confident woman and never someone who would have put up with a lying, cheating husband for any reason. Now that I'm in the actual situation, it is just way harder than I ever thought it would be to walk away from everything we've built. But I am very carefully thinking about all the questions you've posed to me. I think a goal of the next three weeks can be to work on answering them.)
Thanks, everyone, for the tremendous support. I get so much strength from you. It is amazing and wonderful to me that there is this network of human beings across the world who are going through such difficult and heartbreaking situations, and that we can reach out to each other and be there for each other in such important ways. Here's to 2020 and the start of an amazing new decade for all of us.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
-- consult with an L or two (I read somewhere on here that you should meet with the three best Ls in town because the two you don't pick are conflicted and can't take your spouse's case if it gets there-- does anyone know if that counts for the free consults or did you need to pay them?)
It counts for any consult, free or paid. Once you start sharing information about your situation, that L is now conflicted out. When you call to set up a consult, they should ask for your H's name to check for conflict.
I can't stress enough how much I advocate you do a couple consults. Conflicting out is a side benefit, but more importantly, you become much more educated and aware of options that you probably aren't aware of. Let's say you decide you do want him to GTFO -- do you know what your actual legal options are if he refuses? A good L will hear your input and offer a strategy that matches your goals, values and needs. A bad L will have a single one-size-fits-all approach.
Oh my ! I’m very proud you are starting to get more confident . He’s starting to come to the realization of loosing you . I did what I called ghost mode for my own sake . I just wouldn’t even respond to anyone of his non sense about living in a fantasy. And really put some distance in there . Way amp up your GAL right now . Do more with the kids and keep in out of it . Leave him to his craziness.
Don’t worry too much that you had sex with him . Take a stronger stance now . Be sexier , confident and distance for you not him . You did the right thing by claiming the master bed .
Just some insight I went out with H last night . Talked a ton . He doesn’t even remember half of what went on for months . Like a black hole . I opened up some and said you have no idea how hard it was to just let you go knowing you would come back one day . You had to figure it out on your own . I’m saying this because maybe you need to just let him go and tell him exactly what my coach said to me . “ I love you enough to let you go , I will not stand in your way” . And don’t stand in his way .
I got a lot of backlash from how I handled the kids . He wanted them a lot . So I gave him that full well knowing he would crash and burn from it . I was a ghost when he had them . He knew it too after a few weeks . He would walk in to get them and I would be dressed ready to go . Just a scheduled bed time video chat . It was awful sometimes but not all the time . Kids had a voice . Which after a few weeks they told him it’s okay for one night not to see mommy but not two . If he’s like my H (which he does seem a bit like as a parent) he will listen to the kids .
My opinion is he has too many options that you both have discussed .
One option only . We are not together . You are having an affair . No need to discuss any further .
I am just getting caught up. I worked several 16 hour shifts and haven't had time to read/post. I honestly don't know how people have hours a day to spend on this site! I work a lot and have 3 kids. I often feel behind on replying to people then hope they don't take it personally when I don't read or reply.
I apologize if I did not word my last post well -- I was rushing on a 15 min break. I have zero disappointments! That is not even my right to judge anyone here! I am also not telling you (or didnt mean to) that you are not strong and confident (as someone suggested). So let me try and explain myself better. Generally speaking, strong and confident people do not want to be in a M with someone that is lying/cheating/selfish. I think we can all agree on that because that is not the person we chose to M. What happens when we, the LBS, find ourselves at BD, is that we now want this (often a selfish jerk) person. The focus on a M saving website is to save the M, quite simply stated. This poses an issue if the person we are trying to save the M with is no longer a good partner to us. I feel as if that important piece can easily get lost as we all focus on figuring out what they are doing -- if they are leaning towards Ring, leaving their OPs, leaving the house, showing signs of remorse, etc.
What I like about this site in particular, is that the focus is on letting go, detaching, and finding our self again. It is not easy to FEEL strong and confident when someone betrays us, breaks our heart, and leaves us. So here we are, in a place of vulnerability, trying to make these important life decisions. I think it's a big risk. In the grand scheme of things, this process is a long one, and so it deserves careful time and attention to sort it out. My H did a rather fast turn around and we entered MC. After a couple months, she suggested we couldn't work on the M living separately, so he returned home. It still took several years to recover the damage that had been done. In hindsight, I think he came back too quickly. This type of betrayal is so damaging. ... I don't understand how a person can still consider someone a "best friend" or a good partner when they have been lying and cheating for years. The person you think you have in front of you is in fact a lie, an actor.
I know we are different people -- I have said before -- you seem to be handling things much better than I was able to. I still think, for any of us, we should let the person go and give up control. More time should be spent on healing and self discovery. There are many other relationships to nurture -- children, friends, new friends, family. You can't fix what is broken with one willing partner. He hasn't shown you a person that is willing, so there really isn't much point in trying to figure that out right now. As you become detached and a stronger version of yourself, that woman will be a far better judge as to what kind of partner she wants to be M to. A lot of LBS ultimately become the ones to end the M. They are just not posting here. I think you (and I say this because I did too) owe it to yourself to look at all your options. What he has done is a huge betrayal and not forgivable for a lot of people.
I really like what AS says about creating conditions (consequences) that you cannot enforce and it weakening your power. I also think Ms and any Rs are complex and there is no simple rules that we can live by. I thought any type of infidelity was a deal breaker and here I am. I do sometimes wonder what my life could be if we were not together. I think that is normal. I have seen a lot of people find new Rs and Ms that were better suited to them. I choose to stay with the father of my kids and he has proven to be a good man. It has taken years to trust that because he cannot erase what he did.
Your last post is very reassuring. I have a lot of faith and confidence in you.
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
Thanks-- will absolutely do. Bought a book today on divorce also to start reading up on the processes.
Hi CG,
So good to hear from you and glad things are going well I have been thinking of you and how you are the master at detaching and distancing-- ghost mode! I love it!
A question for you-- did the kids go to his place or did he come to yours and you just split for a day or two?
I am definitely doing way better at the distancing and I can see it has an effect. With all the options he has... I'm kind of at a loss right now. I asked him to leave, he said no. I am positive I could throw a crazy fit and throw him out and he would go, but I don't want to be that person. (I mean I *kind* of want to be that person but am trying not to be.)
He is maintaining he wants to do this together and figure out where we go together (R or S/D) with the kids as the first priority and I have continued to say I'm not there, a big part of me wants him to leave. But with his parents coming on Tuesday, it just isn't going to work to kick him out right now. We will have to figure out some way to get through the next few weeks until they go and there is the room for him to either move down to the basement or out. I am really attracted to the simplicity of one option only, but I am just having the hardest time seeing how it works with everything going on. In a lot of ways I feel it would be easier if he either just wanted to leave or was being a total a**.
Blu,
Please! No worries. I also can't believe the amount of time *I* am spending here... it is probably not all that good for me and definitely terrible for my productivity at work I so appreciate your insights. And there is no need to apologize. A big part of ME wants to say GTFO, and move on. You are the voice in my head as I NEVER thought I would be this person-- infidelity was also a total deal breaker for me. I don't need someone who has lied and cheated for the last two years.
But at the same time-- that same flawed human being is the father of my children who love him beyond words, and they are my absolute first priority. I know, know, know that two resentful parents staying together for the kids isn't the best thing, and I do believe that I deserve a fulfilling, happy marriage with a H who is trustworthy and wants to be there. He is not that person right now. I am just not wanting to rush into anything right at this exact moment. And, I'm caring less than I was about how my actions may or may not promote an eventual reconciliation.
I feel like the door is open for him to go and he knows it now, which is a major shift for us. I also told him that I was no longer going to ask him not to talk with her because it was not my call what he did or didn't do, and it didn't change anything. He was pretty floored. I did request (did not demand) that he tell me when he talks to her. If his desire is to work through this together it is important that I have all the information, and that is information that is helpful for me in making my decision.
He had an interesting reaction to this request. He said the main reason he hadn't been communicating with her was because I had said I didn't want him to, so pushing the burden of decision on to him was not something he was ready to answer right away and said he would think about it. I said fine, also not buying any of it, just kind of wanted to have it said. (And talk about WEAK! He can't even take responsibility for the daily decision to communicate with AP or not? He has to have the excuse in his head of ME? Ugh.)
Where I am right now-- I continue to really try to focus on being OK with our M being over. It is. The question is where we go from here and how quickly we move. I definitely feel like I've shifted my emphasis somewhat from trying to focus on him and what might help to turn him back towards the M and towards me and more on what *I* want.
Now, I'm definitely have not fully shifted my focus away from him, and part of the problem of him still being around is that I do start to feel friendly towards him again and then starting to feel not so sure I do want him to go. He's been cleaning the house, cooking meals and cleaning up after, taking care of little things that needed to be done around the house. I played games with the kids all day (rainy day) and then went to get a massage while he stayed home to cook dinner.
Here's another weird thing... I am STILL not as mad as I should be. Why? Am I actually not in love with him anymore anyway so the main thing that has been driving me to try to save the M is the kids, house, friends, commitment, etc etc and the cheating is hurting my pride more than my heart? Was I so hurt throughout the process of this "trickle truth" that I've gotten most of it out of my system? (I could barely get out of bed after BD1 and BD2 for a couple of days.) Or have I not fully absorbed the gravity of the situation? Anyway, this has been bothering me a bit. The only thing that really gets me in the gut is the kids. And, I'm still probably overall being too nice to him still.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
