The Aftermath of BD #3 -- 2 yr PA

[KristinG]

May,

Wanted to stop in say hi. It sounds like you are doing well handling any interactions with him and distancing. I love your new tag line at the bottom. I LOL'd at the "Just Kidding!" I too have struggled with anger. It seems like the normal response is to be p*ssed beyond belief at our spouses. In the last year I have yet to feel that anger. I get upset/emotional and all around frustrated, yes. But the guttural, righteous anger hasn't ever come. I would say just give it time and most people eventually hit that stage of grief.

Keep your guard up and continue to make decisions for yourself and your kids. Protect yourself and give it time before making any rash or emotional decisions.

((HUGS))

KG

[may22]

Thanks, KG. Isn't that weird about the anger?

I'm spinning today. Yesterday I went to yoga and to have coffee with a friend (both of which were great!) and left him at home. He decided to completely reorganize the kids' bathroom and I left him doing that (he asked if it was OK and I said sure, just don't throw anything away where there are two of them. He rolled his eyes.) Before I left, he stopped me and said hey, you know there is a world in which the girls never need to know any of this happened. I said OK... and he said so it is your choice to say whatever you want to your friend, but please remember that may be detrimental if we end up there. I said OK (and I didn't say anything to this friend, who I love but who would FREAK out, and also has a lot of trouble keeping secrets).

I came home and he'd made me lunch. We watched the football game, took the kids to a movie and out to dinner. I felt myself slipping back into wanting to be with him, wanting him to stay, liking this new H who encountered several situations when we were out that would have resulted in him totally blowing up a year ago, and instead watching him handle it really really well. (What is WRONG with me??) We talked after the kids went to bed to try to figure out some of the logistics around what is going to happen when his parents are here-- what will he say to them (he is still waffling between saying something generic like "we are having trouble right now and May may not choose to be around all that much" and telling his mom what is really going on). I asked why he doesn't want to tell her and he said in case we end up staying together, he doesn't want her to know.

Then I asked him if he'd thought more about my request that he be honest if he talks to AP. He said he'd thought about it. I said, ok, so did you talk to her today? And he said yes, he texted with her. I asked why and he said to make sure she was doing OK. I said did you talk to her yesterday? and he said yes, I talked to her on the phone to tell her your request about telling you if we spoke and we discussed it.

I WAS angry then, though I think I controlled my emotions-- said thanks for telling me, I'm glad you did. But it was a total kick to the gut and clearly I've been reeled back in somewhat by these interactions over the past week even though I thought I was being so ready for him to go. And I definitely think he's reaching out to her to be sure she's still available to him as Plan A. He said something along the lines of I was pushing him away so why wouldn't he talk to her, and that I was saying I wasn't sure if I wanted to be with him, so why would he take that gamble with me? It is so manipulative and screwed up-- whether he is doing this intentionally or not, it feels so selfish and manipulative to basically ask me not to say anything to my friend because, you know, we might end up together and then probably while I'm gone and maybe he's worried that I do decide to say something to text AP to "make sure she's doing OK." To both of us. I know this just goes back to trust nothing of what you hear and only half of what you see. I guess the good thing is even though I am feeling all of this, I don't think I said or did anything obvious to make him think I would want to R with him-- though he could probably sense that I was wavering back.

This morning I brought up the trip again, and said I thought he really needed to be working on some alternatives to his original plan, given the direction we are going in. He blew up. I'm being vindictive and spiteful blah blah blah, taking away the most important thing "in the world" to him, I don't understand him at all, I'm threatening him, if that is how I want it to be then he will want to respond in kind, etc. He is SO invested in his happy D fantasy. I just kept saying I was sorry and he just kept repeating back "no, you're not." That if I go down the road of not-friends D, then I'm the one who is f-ing up the kids. I didn't respond to this (but inside was like NO I AM NOT!!! YOU DID THIS! These are all the consequences of YOUR actions!)

I hate that somehow the last couple of days I've backslid so much. Need to refocus on being fine alone and that I don't need this confused liar in my life right now.

I'm having difficulty with how to show him tough love and go dark without setting conditions that I can't enforce, like asking him to leave. (Again last night, after he said he talked to her the last couple of days, I said I think you should go, I don't want to live with an H who is engaged in an active affair, he said he isn't going anywhere right now and if I want to go, I can go. Which I won't do.)

Any suggestions for me? I do think after his parents leave he will be open to moving to the basement, but I obviously can't set any conditions around whether or not he is still talking to her (which I'd originally felt was important, that being in the basement was too close to me if he was still in an active affair). So I will need to just let that go and also go as dark as possible when that happens. But what to do in the meantime, also without negatively affecting my R with his parents?

[may22]

Update:

Last night I spent over an hour talking to my friend and afterwards felt much better. Came home and was quiet and detached, read and took a bath. He made dinner and cleaned up, had done all the grocery shopping. Played with the kids and then around bedtime D7 had an incident where she felt really guilty and cried like her heart was breaking for a good half an hour. Both of us took turns comforting her. After they finally went to bed, he said to me he can't do it, he can't do something that will make her feel like that... but he is worried that is the wrong reason.

He said if we decided to try to work on our MR things would have to be really different. I agreed. He talked more about some of the conversations we have had over the past week, especially around sex and desire, and that it was as if I was a different person who had been keeping all these things about myself from him all these years. He got a little frustrated/angry at one point (that I had held this back from him all these years) but calmed down, agreed it was more complicated than that. We talked a little more about his parents coming-- I think he is going to tell his mom, but not sure the extent of what he'll say to her (either just "we are having trouble" or some version of the whole story).

We saw his IC this morning. It went better than I thought it would-- she treated it more like a couple's counseling session rather than just me there to shed light on his issues, and was really quite supportive of me and intervened a few times when he was getting into the blame game. Despite some of the things he has said over the past week, I think he is still effectively in the same place he was-- in love with AP, wants to be with her, scared of leaving, scared of hurting me and the kids. Can't see his feelings ever going away for her. (I did say that I knew it was possible to get over people you were madly in love with because I'd done it before I met him-- he had never had a serious GF before me-- and his IC was nodding like a bobble head doll.)

He shared his fantasy D with the IC (leaving out the AP part)-- that we'd be friends, we would see each other all the time, he'd still take care of me and the girls, mow the lawn, etc. He started crying when he said this. He also got frustrated at my vision of D (we are cordial co-parents but not friends, he's happy, I'm happy)-- if I would do *anything* for the girls, why wouldn't I participate in his version? I just said I would do what I needed to do to heal, and seeing him any more than absolutely necessary was not going to be helpful to me in that process.

He wanted to understand the reasons why he did this, not just the pat reasons he's been telling himself all this time of why he was in a place to do it (because May was so frigid and starved him of emotional and physical connection) and instead why he made the choices that he did. We didn't get all that far because he kept dropping back into the blame game and the IC would redirect.

I was able to share my boundaries in front of the IC (I'm not interested in working on our R in any direction unless the third party is out of the picture) which kind of infuriates him-- says it feels controlling and he feels trapped. I said, then go. The IC said that my boundary sounded more protective (of myself) than controlling, and asked him if he had a decision-- what do you want? He kept saying he didn't know. (I felt she was pushing him to say he wanted to leave, "sounds like you have made your choice then" but he didn't take the opportunity.)

He also questioned why he has been trying for more than a year to "get his $hit together" (=leave me, since AP didn't want to be involved with a married man) but hasn't been able to do it (really, the kids, I think-- doesn't have much to do with me). I expressed my own ambivalence about trust, the two years of lying and cheating, and whether or not I wanted to be with him at all, except for the children. The IC said I needed time to process my own emotions around this, cautioned me against sharing this information with friends at this point.

We talked about staying in limbo and ambivalence and what that looked like without any resolution, except that the IC offered her continued support (she said she could work with us together on the M as well as him individually, but I'm not sure that is the best idea). He was open to that but felt like we should see someone else, she could be the backup. I said I wasn't sure I wanted to see anyone under the current circumstances, I think I just need space. I'm picking up his parents after work from the airport.

Here's what I'm thinking-- still continue to GAL, focus on me, self-care. Hopefully get some good time away from everything this weekend. Be nice to his parents and continue to work on detachment, look into my options, follow up with the Ls. Visualize my life alone. I went through all our financial records over the past couple of nights and everything looks good. All our money accounted for.

If I was him I'd be worried financially-- his income is far less stable than mine, and this past year he didn't do very well. (He told me the 2019 final number this morning and I said there was no way we were finalizing a D in 2020 then (his 2020 income is already projected to be back up where it was before this past year). He laughed and said maybe that is why we shouldn't be rushing into anything. I could make everything work on my budget even with zero $$ from him if we pulled the kids out of private school (and assuming I could borrow money from my parents to buy him out of the house). If the kids live with me and he pays child support (based on his 2018 income, which is about the same as my own) we'd be fine and the girls could stay at their school (assuming I paid half their tuition). But if he had another year like this one? He'd be screwed.

We had talked about trust in the session, H saying how could I ever trust him again, he thinks he should go because there is no way I would ever trust him and we'd be consigning ourselves to a miserable trust-less existence. He told me after we left the IC that I needed to know he'd probably need to travel to her city in February at some point. I'm thinking now that will be pretty much a watershed-- that will be the point I will be able to ask him to leave and mean it. I don't know that I can kick him out today (even if his parents weren't here) and really mean it. But I do know that if he travels to her city without some sort of elaborate plan to ensure I trust he isn't going to see her-- which is probably impossible, both because he won't want to and because I won't be able to believe him-- that I won't want him back. Like if he was traveling there this weekend? His stuff would be in the basement when he came home. I'm wondering if it makes sense to set that as the end of limbo-- if things are still unresolved by then, they'll be resolved by the trip and we'll be separated.

Open to 2x4s, etc. I know most of you guys think I should have booted him and gone dark. I think that is probably what will happen in February, but I'm not quite there today, and want to take this next six weeks or so to focus on myself and what I need without pulling the rug out from under the girls. (Suddenly now he's the one worried that the girls will figure out he's sleeping in the office-- the IC asked him what his concerns were while his parents were here and that is what he said. Oh how times have changed.)

[Pommy99]

Oh May, re your comments on my thread, we are completely marriage crisis sisters!! I have read your two long threads and there are so many similarities, current exception being the PA although given the weekly business trips there is still time for the EA to become a PA admission. You sound like you are being incredibly strong and focusing on yourself. I have learnt a huge amount from reading you story. X

[wooba]

Gosh. If I were you I’d kick him out. If you can’t do that or he refuses to leave, I’d ask him to get outta MBR. And treat him like a roommate. Minimal “playing family” with him. I feel like he’s disrespecting you so much and you shouldn’t even entertain going to IC with him. Reading about your H makes me more angry than thinking about mine!! Lol!!!

[kas99]

My vote is kick him out. I got angry just reading your latest updates.

[Rosy10]

May,
I just caught myself up on your situation and my heart goes out to you! What a gigantic a-hole. I think you are demonstrating some real strength with how you are handling things, since I'm sure it's no small feat to remain even moderately calm and collected when going through what you're experiencing. You are kind to pick up his parents and allow them to stay at your home, although it is understandable in regards to maintaining your R with them for your kids' sake. I think I would have said they can get a hotel room. Is your H still sleeping on the couch while they're visiting?

[unchien]

may ~

We talked about staying in limbo and ambivalence and what that looked like without any resolution, except that the IC offered her continued support (she said she could work with us together on the M as well as him individually, but I'm not sure that is the best idea). He was open to that but felt like we should see someone else, she could be the backup. I said I wasn't sure I wanted to see anyone under the current circumstances, I think I just need space.

A couple reflections here:

- Absolutely don't use the same person for IC and MC, ever.

- He does not want to work on the MR. Don't go to MC until he does. We all focus on picking the right "pro-marriage" counselor, but personally I believe MC fails primarily because the spouses don't want the same thing. No MC can fix that. Everyone told me this, I did it anyways.

- I noticed a little vibe of the IC agreeing with you, which must have felt good. It's unlikely these moments register with your H in the same way. But it sounds like at least he's not getting the full echo chamber treatment that we all worry about (and I tend to think most ICs are not echo chambers, it's just that people only hear what they want to hear).

Your H exhibits a lot of NG tendencies. He doesn't want to hurt your feelings, yet he has a 2 year EA/PA. He wants you to be responsible for the D, not him. Ya know, for his kids' sake... I'm angry on your behalf.

A couple months ago I went to a local library and checked out like 6 books on mediation. I forgot almost all the content, but one nugget stuck out. When people say "what's best for the kids" 99% of the time they are really saying "what's best for me". The book prodded... really think what's best for the kids. Take your needs out of it. Take his needs out of it. It brought me some clarity (rather than getting stuck on "50-50" I think more "they need quality time with both parents"). Maybe it will help you.

[may22]

Woosa/Kas... I told him I thought he should go. He is refusing. I think the only way to get him to actually go at this moment is to pitch a fit and seem unreasonable, which I don't want to do. Plus, his parents are here now. UGH.

Is your H still sleeping on the couch while they're visiting?

He is out of the MBR and in the office, though all his clothes etc are in the MBR and he uses the MBR bathroom. Somehow *now* he is worried that the kids might find out about him sleeping in the office, and so has been far more careful to put everything back together. His parents are in the basement studio, which is where I am sure he will consent to go once they leave. Getting him fully out of the house will be harder, plus the additional expense of an apartment will be difficult before we split up our finances.

(Note-- he does not want to split our finances for now. He is dragging his heels on every ACTUAL step towards S/D, like looking at finances, talking to/researching Ls or mediators, splitting up our finances or really even talking about it, and now backing away from even letting the kids find out about him sleeping in the office. Before, when I was the one worried about it, he was like "they'll have to find out sometime." SO FRUSTRATING.)

Absolutely don't use the same person for IC and MC, ever.

Roger.

He does not want to work on the MR. Don't go to MC until he does. We all focus on picking the right "pro-marriage" counselor, but personally I believe MC fails primarily because the spouses don't want the same thing. No MC can fix that. Everyone told me this, I did it anyways.

We aren't talking about MC, but ambivalence or discernment-- specifically how to get out of limbo. There is one guy who has discernment (and Gottman) training in my city, I spoke with him and he seems like he could be a good fit. He said given our sitch it sounded like there would be some sessions together and some sessions apart. I had mentioned it a month or so ago and H has brought it up again a couple times that we should consider it. I think it could be useful since he has expertise in this area (I don't think his IC necessarily does) and probably helpful to get another perspective.

I noticed a little vibe of the IC agreeing with you, which must have felt good. It's unlikely these moments register with your H in the same way. But it sounds like at least he's not getting the full echo chamber treatment that we all worry about (and I tend to think most ICs are not echo chambers, it's just that people only hear what they want to hear).

It was kind of funny. Last night he said to me he was under no illusions that the IC would be on his side once she met me, and he fully expected scoldings from her next week. So I think he did pick up on some of that. Doesn't mean that he listens to anything from anyone he doesn't want to hear-- I think you're completely right on that one. I also think she was thinking she's been working with this guy for a year on this issue (sounds like this has been the primary topic of conversation with her on a weekly basis) and now he has FINALLY given me all the information and she was a little aggravated that he wasn't letting me sit with the knowledge for awhile and be sad and angry and emotional.

Your H exhibits a lot of NG tendencies. He doesn't want to hurt your feelings, yet he has a 2 year EA/PA. He wants you to be responsible for the D, not him. Ya know, for his kids' sake... I'm angry on your behalf.

Yup. Last night he went through this whole thing where he said he's trying to figure out how he could be a liar (or "not disclose"-- somehow he is really leaning on this thing in his head where lies of omission aren't as bad as lies) in this part of his life but believes himself to be fully trustworthy in every other area. How did he give himself permission to do this? I'm like, good question. (Actually I said 'yeah, you really f***ed up' and he got super angry because he said he was being vulnerable and I shut him down. He calmed down eventually and kept talking.) Do I need to keep validating in this situation?

A couple months ago I went to a local library and checked out like 6 books on mediation. I forgot almost all the content, but one nugget stuck out. When people say "what's best for the kids" 99% of the time they are really saying "what's best for me". The book prodded... really think what's best for the kids. Take your needs out of it. Take his needs out of it. It brought me some clarity (rather than getting stuck on "50-50" I think more "they need quality time with both parents"). Maybe it will help you.

This is interesting and I think I'll need to sit with it for a bit. No question, when he first told me he the ILYB last spring, I was absolutely using the kids as a proxy for me, and he called me out on it. Now, I'm at the other end of the spectrum-- I think what would be best for ME would be to S for awhile-- even though I'm not 100% comfortable yet with what all that means-- but that doesn't mean it is necessarily the best for the kids. Hard.

[wooba]

(Actually I said 'yeah, you really f***ed up' and he got super angry because he said he was being vulnerable and I shut him down. He calmed down eventually and kept talking.) Do I need to keep validating in this situation?

HA!! Sorry I totally laughed at what you said to him. "good question" is very different from "yeah you f***ed up" lol!!!

I've have similar responses in my head many times that I knew would send my H through the roof. I think those thoughts stem from resentment, and nothing good usually comes out of it. I would suggest that you keep validating. If anything just listen. When my H apologized to me for blowing up in front of the kids, I said nothing. Afterwards I thought about it and I felt like I should have at least given him a "thank you for apologizing." But at that moment all I could do was to hold back all the negative things I wanted to say to him. I knew it was extremely difficult for him to look at what he did and apologize for it.