Navigating EA and Limbo (#2)

[Ready2Change]

Hi May,


That must have been hard to hear. I am glad you brought up NC and not being friends. I am a firm believer in boundaries. They work.

Protect yourself. Set him free. Let him feel the lose. Most wait too long to do this.

When/If he comes back, you can work on MR2.0. Many have done this after the D paperwork finalized.

Use your time apart wisely and keep working on your personal growth.

[KristinG]

May,

I am just now getting caught up after the weekend. Oh my goodness what a horrible couple of days you have had! I feel like you handled all of those R talks with dignity and grace. You held your own and established so good boundaries. It s*cks so bad to hear those words "I'm in love with someone else and I want to be with him/her". I agree with the vets here as you should clearly let him make whatever decision he feels he needs to make - don't take the bait! You are so much stronger than when you started posting and I am rooting for you. Don't hesitate to reach out if you feel like you're spiraling in the coming days. It sounds like his head is a jumbled mess.

So many hugs and good vibes.

KG

[may22]

Thanks so much you guys...

So he said nothing new. And the cockamamie part about living with AP and everyone getting along shows me he is going to try to cake-eat. I am almost 100% certain this is about feeling stuck due to child-support (and possibly alimony), otherwise I think he'd probably already be gone.

Go back to the plan. GAL. 180s. Detach. And just give him time and space to figure his crap out.

This is his D plan: I live in the house and the kids live with me. He pays half the mortgage, maybe we still are co-owners but he pays because the kids are living with me. Things "aren't all that different" -- I take care of the morning routines, he picks them up from school unless he's traveling and takes them to soccer/swimming or whatever. Brings them to the house. He would like us to eat dinner together but if that wasn't OK with me he would understand. He would then go to his own house. We would work out weekends/vacation time. I actually made more $$ than him this year so alimony isn't a thing and if we had 50/50 custody (I looked this up in my state-- I don't know that he knows this) whoever makes more $$ has to pay standard of living child support payments to the other, so I'd actually need to pay HIM. He says the kids are his #1 priority and he wants them to have a home, doesn't want them shuttling back and forth to a sad apartment so as long as we could agree to enough access for him and that he'd still have a house key etc he would be fine with them living with me in the house full time.

Agree with Steve. I know you're too involved to see this but how ridiculous is that. Ask him if he'd be your friend and live next door as a parenting buddy if it were you involved with or living with some 33 year old stud out of state that you were in love with? Seriously, WTF are people thinking.

Newbie, I actually did ask him how he would feel if the roles were reversed. He said he thought the biggest threat to his "vision" would be that I found someone new relatively quickly and the idea of someone else sleeping in his bed with me was very hard. But, that he would want me to be happy and as long as he still had enough access to the children he would be OK. He also did accept that his vision is very unlikely but felt since I have been able to share my vision (M2.0) he should be able to share his.

I don't know why, but I feel like this all would be so much easier to deal with if it were just the two of us dealing with our issues together-- maybe we can work it out, maybe we can't-- but having this AP involved is somehow so much more painful.

Hi May,
That must have been hard to hear. I am glad you brought up NC and not being friends. I am a firm believer in boundaries. They work.

Protect yourself. Set him free. Let him feel the lose. Most wait too long to do this.

When/If he comes back, you can work on MR2.0. Many have done this after the D paperwork finalized.

Use your time apart wisely and keep working on your personal growth.

R2C/Steve, I've been spending a lot of time last night and today thinking of what's next and what my next steps are.

My boundaries:
-- He must go NC with the AP in order for us to talk about and work on our relationship in a meaningful way, whether to try to R or to work through what his dream separation/co-parenting would look like. I am only willing to have the latter conversation if there isn't another party involved.
-- If we separate without the above, we will not be friends.

Now this isn't a boundary and is probably a mistake, but I have expressed to him that my strong preference is for us work on our R together seriously, with NC, for a period of time like six months. At the end of that if either of us really can't see M2.0, I believe I would feel like I gave our M the best shot possible, did everything I could, and would be open to other possibilities, like friendly D. (Even writing this out I see it is not DBing but it is what I did tell him.)

In thinking through what might happen next, I see three possibilities:

1. He says he's willing to try NC with AP, provides enough transparency that I believe him. Not actually sure where this takes us since I don't think he'd really be ready to R mentally unless he has some come-to-Jesus moment. I did agree to help him in this case as I know it would be difficult and he has only really tried in a pretty half-a**ed way so far IMO. (Though he would beg to differ.) In this case just keep focusing on DB-ing, GALing, detaching and being a WOAFWL?

2. He says he isn't willing to go NC with AP and says he wants to move out. I let him (OMG that was hard even to just type!!) and keep to my boundaries. Get a separation agreement, research/meet with a few D lawyers. Figure out what to say to friends and family (I'll want to throw him under the bus... figuring that isn't so good in the long term for DBing though, right?). Detach, focus on me and the kids, and maybe he comes back. Get a dog (the one bright light since H doesn't like dogs and my kids are dying for one).

3. He says he isn't willing to go NC with AP but doesn't say he wants to move out. In this case, I would stick to the focus on DB-ing, GAL, detaching? Do not be his friend even though we still live under the same roof? Trying to figure out my path here. I strongly believe he wants me to be the one to ask him to leave to alleviate his guilt and I refuse to do so.

4. Nothing happens-- neither of us initiates an R talk and this situation continues until he does. I do the same thing as #3 above.

My major worry is this-- I don't know that I'll want him back if he leaves-- if he makes that choice to walk out the door, for whatever reason that is crossing such a major boundary for me, way worse than carrying on an A. I think it is because it feels like something he is actively doing to our family and our kids vs to me alone. I *guess* I could imagine myself being willing to take him back for the kids if and when that ever happened, but I feel if he walks and I need to start telling people what is going on, I won't be strong enough to be honest about what is actually happening AND admit that I'd take him back. I either need to not really share (which would be probably impossible for me-- I've been having a difficult time enough keeping this from my close friends) or tell folks what is really happening in which case I feel that I will move towards believing I'm better off without him and screw him for doing this to me and the kids. It is part of the reason I'm so fearful of him moving this to a place where people will need to know what is going on-- that I will no longer be able to stand for the M once that happens and I am now the one failing my children. (That. Is. So. Hard.)

I'm really feeling awful. Hopefully I can get some sleep tonight. Any other thoughts or suggestions? What am I missing?

Caligirl, Kristin, I don't know what I'd do without you two. THANK YOU for being there.

[unchien]

This is his D plan: I live in the house and the kids live with me. He pays half the mortgage, maybe we still are co-owners but he pays because the kids are living with me. Things "aren't all that different" -- I take care of the morning routines, he picks them up from school unless he's traveling and takes them to soccer/swimming or whatever. Brings them to the house. He would like us to eat dinner together but if that wasn't OK with me he would understand. He would then go to his own house. We would work out weekends/vacation time. I actually made more $$ than him this year so alimony isn't a thing and if we had 50/50 custody (I looked this up in my state-- I don't know that he knows this) whoever makes more $$ has to pay standard of living child support payments to the other, so I'd actually need to pay HIM. He says the kids are his #1 priority and he wants them to have a home, doesn't want them shuttling back and forth to a sad apartment so as long as we could agree to enough access for him and that he'd still have a house key etc he would be fine with them living with me in the house full time.

may -

Sorry you are going through this. Your H sounds completely all over the place.

You want to work on the MR, and he wants a D where he can come and go as he pleases, eat dinner like a family regularly, and have a key to your house. You are not even on the same planet right now in terms of your wishes.

I have a 5th option for you to consider - you'll notice I cribbed a lot from your 2nd option:

5. You ask him to leave. If he says he is NC with AP, demand full transparency to prove it. Insist on MC as part of the plan. Keep to your boundaries. If he does not do NC and MC, get a separation agreement, research/meet with a few D lawyers. Figure out what to say to friends and family. You don't owe anybody a reason if you don't want to share it. Detach, focus on you and the kids, and maybe he comes back. Get a dog for your kids.

I know you don't want to alleviate his guilt by asking him to leave. ALL WAS's play this guilt-alleviation game. You can't control how he feels or responds. One way or another, WAS's tend to find a way to minimize their guilt... it is human nature.

I'm not suggesting you ask him to leave, just consider all the options on the table.

As far as worrying if you'd take him back if he leaves, again nobody deserves to hear your reasons (if you think that would prevent a future R). It is as personal a matter as you want it to be. Nobody knows how your sitch will play out. Maybe there is a scenario where you do take him back, maybe not. NOTHING is a "no turning back" moment in these sitches. It can feel that way, and leave you feeling powerless. People R all the time years down the road.

Hang in there, you will get through this.

[may22]

I have a 5th option for you to consider - you'll notice I cribbed a lot from your 2nd option:

5. You ask him to leave. If he says he is NC with AP, demand full transparency to prove it. Insist on MC as part of the plan. Keep to your boundaries. If he does not do NC and MC, get a separation agreement, research/meet with a few D lawyers. Figure out what to say to friends and family. You don't owe anybody a reason if you don't want to share it. Detach, focus on you and the kids, and maybe he comes back. Get a dog for your kids.

I know you don't want to alleviate his guilt by asking him to leave. ALL WAS's play this guilt-alleviation game. You can't control how he feels or responds. One way or another, WAS's tend to find a way to minimize their guilt... it is human nature.

I'm not suggesting you ask him to leave, just consider all the options on the table.

Hi Unchien,
Thank you so much for commenting. I've been following your thread and also really appreciate your insights on people's threads. (And your last post today is golden. I am super impressed.) I think you're right, option 5 should be on the table. I am not sure I will/can do it... but I think I might get there if DBing in the house gets too difficult and he refuses to make any steps. However, for my own sake and how I see myself as a mom, I don't think I can be the one to have pushed the move-out. Not letting him alleviate any guilt is a side benefit

I started researching D and child support, which makes me feel a bit better just to have done something productive and protective for myself.

As far as worrying if you'd take him back if he leaves, again nobody deserves to hear your reasons (if you think that would prevent a future R). It is as personal a matter as you want it to be. Nobody knows how your sitch will play out. Maybe there is a scenario where you do take him back, maybe not. NOTHING is a "no turning back" moment in these sitches. It can feel that way, and leave you feeling powerless. People R all the time years down the road.

This is helpful. I think the feeling of powerlessness is a big issue for me. I also know that my first reaction will be to throw him under the bus to as many people as possible, but I'm trying to be thoughtful about what that might mean.

One question that has been on my mind-- he is offering at this point that I would have full physical custody of the children. This is my number one priority along with financial security, and when I just did the math I think child support payments would be enough to cover all or a significant part of my mortgage. He just got a raise which should bring his income more than mine next year-- last time I did these calculations, at 50/50 custody (assuming that was what he would have wanted), I would actually have had to pay HIM which was going to make my head completely explode.

If he is truly committed to having the kids have their home here with me and he would get visitation, I'm wondering if to play the long game I should be as nice as possible to secure that... or when we really get into the D situation he'll come to his senses and want 50/50 and we would probably have to sell the house to afford that?

I was afraid to actually think seriously about D, but now that I'm getting into it somewhat, I think it might help me with detachment.

Another question for you-- MC when the spouse isn't actually committed to R in their heart-- I've been thinking about this somewhat because I am asking for it knowing even if he said yes tomorrow, he wouldn't be fully into it. But if he were actually NC and willing to do it, is it necessarily a bad thing? I *would* like to talk to a professional about how to talk to the kids if we get to that place.

[unchien]

However, for my own sake and how I see myself as a mom, I don't think I can be the one to have pushed the move-out. Not letting him alleviate any guilt is a side benefit

Understood. Keep the focus on your needs.

I started researching D and child support, which makes me feel a bit better just to have done something productive and protective for myself.

Knowledge is power... great step. I also educated myself on the process and felt so much better.

If he is truly committed to having the kids have their home here with me and he would get visitation, I'm wondering if to play the long game I should be as nice as possible to secure that... or when we really get into the D situation he'll come to his senses and want 50/50 and we would probably have to sell the house to afford that?

I'm not a legal expert and I know this can vary by state. If he did offer you full physical custody for now, how would you secure that? In a legal document?

I suggest you assume there is a reasonable chance he will want 50/50 at some point, and make decisions accordingly. Even his current fantasy of giving you 100% but having dinners and free will to come and go as he pleases mean he is not really thinking of this as a normal 100% custody situation. He may not have researched the finances to the degree that you have yet. You'd be surprised how unknowledgeable some WAS'es are about the D process given they sometimes have several years head start on the process. You may know more than he does at this point about the law. Or... he could be playing games. Either way, you are doing the right thing by educating and protecting yourself.

I was afraid to actually think seriously about D, but now that I'm getting into it somewhat, I think it might help me with detachment.

Exactly. It also helped me to talk to D'd friends and realize their lives went on and they were not miserable. You start to realize you can handle whatever life throws at you, and your happiness is within your control whatever happens.

Another question for you-- MC when the spouse isn't actually committed to R in their heart-- I've been thinking about this somewhat because I am asking for it knowing even if he said yes tomorrow, he wouldn't be fully into it. But if he were actually NC and willing to do it, is it necessarily a bad thing? I *would* like to talk to a professional about how to talk to the kids if we get to that place.

MC will not be helpful unless he is committed to going. He may agree to go as a way to help bring closure. That happens often.

If he does go, I suggest you keep the focus in MC 100% on the MR. If you want help on how to talk with the kids, or work on co-parenting, find a separate counselor. Personally I think talking to the kids is straightforward - you can find information online, and all of it is common sense. Whether or not your H would actually follow the recommendations is another matter, and that is something you can't control.

[Newbie20]

What a piece of work this AP is. I remember when I was much younger I had the grand opportunity (ugh) to get involved with a married partner at my firm who had little kids. He was obviously in MLC (45 or so, I was about 27). He was smitten. I still have a tape he recorded and sent me. Willing to walk away from his family. A complete fantasy. I never responded to him. What kind of woman gets involved with a guy like that? I know it's hard to contemplate at this point but this thing your H has with the AP will flame out. The only issue is how you will feel when that happens.

[wooba]

may22, you shouldn't worry now about whether you will take him back if he leaves. tackle one thing at a time. And you are not powerless! No matter what happens, you don't owe anybody ANYTHING! once you are detached enough, you probably wouldn't care to throw him under the bus anyway. Also I know that you also want to put your children first, so that alone would be a big deterrence for you to do something like that. But again, in my opinion I feel like that's still a little far out for you to worry about.

[may22]

Update...

-- yesterday I did not respond to any text messages that weren't necessary-- all exchanges business only. I ignored one reminder to get the girls and only responded to a second check that I had them.

-- he came home, sat down on the couch and chatted with me about his day, asked me about mine. I shared a little drama at work (maybe that was a DB fail) but I was actually feeling rather detached since I started researching D. It wasn't for his benefit (like an attempt to connect), it was for mine.

-- in the MB, he had made the bed really nicely during the day (and done laundry, amazing) and put his pillow back. (When he was in the office previously he always left his pillow there but put the futon back every morning, so the kids didn't know.) I went to bed a little on the early side, he sat on the couch and watched TV. He came in (I was half asleep but aware) got ready for bed, took the pillow and slept in the office. I can't lie, at this point there was a part of me hoping he would just get back into the bed even though I *know* that isn't a good idea. I think he does need space to figure all this sh*t out.

--I think I am FINALLY at a place where I'm starting to internalize the idea that I don't want him if he doesn't want me.

--I still am angry that he made these choices when we were in MC and technically trying to work on our M (one of the things he told me was he was kind of testing himself when he first met AP since he found her attractive-- I actually found all these flirty texts between them from right after they first met. That just feels so wrong and pathetic to me. I get he was hurting but still.)

--I also still feel like the biggest boundary for me will be actually leaving and hurting the children-- everything else is forgivable up till then-- but am also starting to see that we may never have the kind of R I want unless he has some sort of come to Jesus moment or hits rock bottom. Does he have to move out for that to happen? (I feel you guys are going to say yes, probably.)

--Again, I'm wrestling with how I approach a S in terms of what I tell people. I definitely think that if people know what he did, he's not going to want to R. But I also feel like I'll be able to handle this so much better if I share what is going on with people who matter to me. I wonder how much of this is also me wanting him to experience the depth of consequences what he has/is doing, and that isn't a good reason. This will take me some time to process and I would welcome any advice or thoughts.

--This morning, he came in before the girls woke up and said "good morning!" in a super bright voice. I said good morning (did not match his tone) and he was immediately-- what? are you OK? what is going on? I was like, nothing, I said good morning. He said he was cold and then got in bed next to me in his spot, watched a news video I was watching. He offered to take the kids into school and I accepted.

--He's texted me this morning already once, something that didn't require a response (just sending me an interesting photo of a friend) and I didn't respond.

Plan this week is to keep focusing on myself, my kids, GAL and detach. Will start working on meditation again.

Unchien, good point about the 50/50-- I am dreaming to imagine he'd actually be OK with that, I think. I need to keep researching and thinking about the best way to move forward.

Newbie-- I KNOW. We talked about her yesterday morning and I said I just don't understand what she is thinking. He said "she thinks I'm pretty great" and she doesn't understand why I would treat him the way I did and let the MR fail. I totally want to barf. One of the things he told me the other night is that he didn't want his life to be a cliche and he felt he was just living one out with me, all his HS friends are just doing the same thing, and I was like are you kidding me? Leaving your wife for a 33 year old when you just turned 40 is the biggest cliche of them all-- and that will be part of your life story forever. You falling in love with this young woman who thinks you're just so great is like the definition of sad MLC cliche. But he doesn't see that... he thinks this is like it isn't optimal the way they met but life isn't perfect and their connection is just so special. When I take myself and my pain out of this, it is just sad.

Woosa-- thanks, I think you're right-- need to tackle one thing at a time. I do think it would be helpful for me to choose someone I trust to talk about this with, and honestly he doesn't need to know that they know at this point either. That could both give me a release valve and support without undermining the possibility of R. Assuming I want it. (Who am I kidding... I still do.)

[SteveLW]

Keep up the good DBing!