Quick recap of my sitch: I'm 44, H is 40. We've been together for 16 years, married 12, with a D7 and a D9. We had a sex-starved marriage due to my disinterest and about 18 months ago H decided I 'broke" him sexually by my constant rejection and has maintained since then he can't envision restarting a passionate/sexual R with me. We were arguing a lot too and started MC a little over a year ago, but he would never agree to a shared goal of a better R and we stopped MC after about 6 months because he felt the MC was on "my" side. He started IC and has continued since (fairly sure his IC is not exactly pro-marriage).
Last January, he entered into an EA with a 33 yo AP who lives on the other side of the country. He has been in her city a half-dozen times since then. In April he gave me the ILYB BD and started talking about the possibility of S/D and in August told me about the EA. At that time he said they were no longer in contact because she didn't want to be with someone who wasn't free to be in a real R. Since then, I'm pretty sure he's seen her at least once (which he lied about) maybe twice on business trips but I don't think they're in frequent contact. (My best guess is that she's cut it off, maybe gave him an ultimatum which he hasn't moved on. I'm 99.99% sure it didn't progress to a PA but I know they kissed a couple of times.
I read DB in April and started GAL-ing and 180s and our R is much improved since then-- hardly any fights, connecting much better on work/family/friendship issues, etc. However, in R talks he has maintained he doesn't see the possibility of a passionate R between us again and that his only options are D or a co-parenting/friendship marriage. He also has a fantasy of D where we would still vacation together, eat dinner together, etc. He is actively "in love" with AP, has told me he would have left long ago if it wasn't for the kids, and in many ways feels that our M ended when he came to the "realization" that I wasn't sexually attracted to him anymore. He still loves me but not in a husband-wife way. We haven't had an R talk for about a month, when he told me he "didn't know what he wanted" (which was somewhat of an improvement from the last time, when he said he was thinking of moving out).
He moved out of the MB after the BD and then quietly returned about two months ago. My most recent dilemma is around sex-- we've had a few middle-of-the-night encounters since he came back to the MB but he's clearly conflicted about it, and I haven't been sure whether to initiate since that would be a big 180 for me or if that would be too much pressure.
Also, my entire family has been in town for Thanksgiving and there has been a lot of static between my mom and H, where both of them have been acting pretty badly. Trying to navigate between both of them has been hard and H is clearly having a really difficult time and has regressed somewhat-- he's pulled back a lot emotionally and physically over the last week. He did kiss me in the middle of the night a couple of nights ago and I didn't move forward to initiate sex, though I think he was waiting for me to do so-- worrying that might have been the wrong move. (Unfortunately I didn't log back onto these forums in time to get Steve85 and others' advice!!) Trying to double down on GAL-ing, validation, and giving him space... except maybe initiating sex. My parents are still here for two more days but my siblings and nephews have left-- H and I might go out for beers tonight so we'll see how that goes.
Any and all thoughts and comments welcome and hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving! I'm very grateful to all of you!
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Last night we went out for drinks after dinner, fun/friendly time. Came home and went to sleep and woke up an hour later and he was awake right in my face-- not exactly sure which one of us initiated but we ended up having sex (another quickie). He went to the bathroom for a long time afterwards and then when he came back to bed was visibly distressed. I asked him if he was OK, he said not really, I asked if he wanted to talk about it.
He said he felt like he should feel good, more than OK, but he didn't and that wasn't fair to me. I just listened and validated. He repeated many of the same things he said the last time-- he didn't think that sex would fix anything, he didn't know what he wanted, he felt like we were just pretending to be OK (especially with my family here all week) and that we weren't dealing with anything between us.
I agreed. He asked me how I was feeling and I deflected a couple of times but ended up responding. He thinks it is strange that I have been just going along with the flow and that I'm not really internalizing the fact that he is in love with someone else-- repeated that "if I could see into his head" I would leave him in a second. That he is a bad person, he's done enough damage to our R that he can't imagine me forgiving him or him forgiving himself.
Here is what I said (tell me if I went too far)-- I didn't think that sex would fix anything and that we would need to see an MC trained in infidelity to help us to get through this and help us both deal with forgiveness. That forgiveness is kind of like grace; it is a choice and there is no formula to say what could/couldn't be forgiven. That I haven't pushed him to work on our R because I don't think he's ready, that he hasn't chosen to focus on our R, and that needed to happen before we could take the next steps of actually working on our MR.
We talked a lot about Esther Perel. He likes the 'second marriage' idea, though vacillated between calling it a second "M" and a second "R". I had just finished reading her new book the State of Affairs and she talks about three kinds of couples that weather infidelity-- the sufferers, the builders, and the explorers. The builders are basically happy to get back to the status quo and value the stability of their lives together, but don't really grow beyond what they had before. The explorers take the opportunity to build a new, stronger, more intimate R that might incorporate some of the aspects of the A-- maybe less safe, but more passionate. We talked about both wanting the explorer route and for the first time he sounded like he thought it would be possible-- he said he thought I was motivated by the builder reasons but was smart enough to be an explorer. He said for him, the builder R was all he had seen and the only motivation for him to stay. I said I thought it was pretty common in all the things I'm reading/podcasts etc that people -- especially the betrayer-- often stays for the builder reasons-- family, commitment, etc-- and it wasn't until they moved into MC and really talking about their R and what they wanted for the future that they became explorers.
However, he also said that he didn't think the explorer route necessarily meant a new marriage, but a new R that didn't need to include M. (We're getting back into his fantasy D here, and I didn't ask him about it because it makes me crazy). I did say to him that I didn't see us being friends if we weren't together. He said (exasperated) that he simply didn't understand that. I'm proud of my reaction-- every time previously we've had this discussion I've kind of flipped out here and last night I simply said I didn't think I could be friends with him after he had hurt me so deeply, that I would need to lead my own life separate from him, but maybe one day far in the future we could be friends again. He doesn't get my position on this and said so, and I just said hey, we are different people, I don't understand some of the choices he's made, so he needs to believe that I might handle this very differently from him. He accepted this (for the first time).
I did ask him if he was still in contact with the AP and he said yes... occasionally. I asked if he's seen her and he said yes, not every trip (so I think I was 100% right that he saw her the first trip, though I didn't ask about that). He saw her this last trip the day I thought he had-- met her for lunch and then they met up with a third friend for drinks in the afternoon. He was super uncomfortable talking about it and sounded annoyed. I asked if he was mad at me, annoyed-- he said he wasn't annoyed or mad, he knew he sounded like that but was just feeling so guilty and badly that he didn't want to talk about it.
He said he hadn't ever really stopped being in contact with her and what they mostly talk about is that this can't work between them. I asked why he hadn't gone to NC and he said he can't. I asked why she hadn't moved on and he said because of this thing between the two of them. He talked a little about how he feels I've minimized his feelings towards her. I said (maybe shouldn't have) that he'll never be able to focus on working on our R as long as he's in contact with her and has her on his mind-- he isn't really able to focus on trying and building up our R until she's out of the picture. (I didn't say anything about making choices.) He said again that he IS trying with me, gesturing towards the bed. Also, that he wasn't doing her any favors by keeping this going with her-- he should let her go, let her meet someone her own age, get married and have kids. He got totally silent (I know he doesn't want any more children) and we just didn't talk for awhile.
In the end, we talked a bit more. He feels like we should be talking about our visions for the future. He knows mine is the "explorer" version of a new MR and said his is "different." I asked if in his we weren't married anymore and he said yes. I didn't ask more (didn't want to know). We talked about him talking to my coach for a session, which she'd suggested and I think we'll do. I said there were 2 Gottman-trained therapists in town and one also had discernment training, which might help him make a decision (not sure if I should press for that but mentioned it). He said he didn't think he wanted to talk to anyone about it.
I think he wants to leave but can't bring himself to do it, but he also can't bring himself to stop talking to AP and actually focusing on our R-- so not much of a change from where we were last. We ended up just going to sleep (I wondered if he would go sleep in the office but he didn't... in fact he went to the bathroom, came back and faced me to sleep (I was turned away)-- like we would have been spooning if we had been any closer to each other. He has been nice all morning.
Guess I just need to keep it up. Interesting that he made the opening for sex twice in a week-- that is a big change-- and I think overall I'm glad we did it even though we ended up in an R talk. I am not sure we can have sex without getting into an R talk afterwards unless I pretend to fall asleep because he is SO conflicted about having sex with me and having feelings for someone else. Thoughts?
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
may, I would stop having sex with him. This feels to me like a man feeling guilty for sleeping with his wife when he is cheating on her. Sorry to be blunt, but this innocent meeting stuff is something I don't buy, and I think you need to brace yourself for the fact that your H is in a PA. You have to protect yourself. I would highly suggest a doctor visit to rule out STDs.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Hi May, I marvel at your inner strength trying to keep this marriage together despite his desire to quit. No advice to offer today--just wanted to let you know I'd read your update and am rooting for you.
may, I would stop having sex with him. This feels to me like a man feeling guilty for sleeping with his wife when he is cheating on her. Sorry to be blunt, but this innocent meeting stuff is something I don't buy, and I think you need to brace yourself for the fact that your H is in a PA. You have to protect yourself. I would highly suggest a doctor visit to rule out STDs.
Hi Steve, Thanks for this. After our conversation last night, I think there is a chance that this progressed to a PA and he hasn't told me to avoid hurting me, but I don't think they're active now-- it just doesn't pass the smell test to me that they have 6 chances to be together in a year and don't actually spend the night together... and if they did, I also know there is no way he'd chat on the phone with me with her there. He'd just go silent (like he did during the times I know they were together). I also am weirded out that he wouldn't just tell me if he wants out of our M, because he knows that would push us majorly in that direction. I asked him point blank last night if they had slept together and he said no-- would have been the perfect opportunity.
Anyway. I know it is pointless to try to get in his head and think about what he may or may not be lying about. However, at this point he won't be in her city again until February or March. Part of me really wants to ask and know more, and be direct about him needing to go NC and stopping this thing if there is any chance of us even being friends at the end of this. The other part of me still feels like pushing him to make a decision is pressure and will make it more likely for him to leave, so if I can continue to focus on DBing and myself I can focus on any advice you gave me previously, thinking about this as the gift of time.
Given the sitch (even if he did sleep with her, they have no chances to be together in person until February or beyond), do you recommend pushing to find out if it is a PA and kicking him out of the MB, etc? Or just being safe myself in terms of sex and not responding if he initiates?
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Hi May, I marvel at your inner strength trying to keep this marriage together despite his desire to quit. No advice to offer today--just wanted to let you know I'd read your update and am rooting for you.
Thanks CW... it is really nothing to do with me, 100% to do with my kids. I'd do anything for them and if that means swallowing my pride and doing everything I can to make this family work for them, I will.
I am having a hard time today, though. Knowing he's still in contact with her is somehow way worse than just knowing he still has feelings for her... and thinking about what might have happened in terms of a PA. I'm definitely not to the detachment phase yet.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
May, what I am saying is to always error on the side of caution when it comes to sexual health. It isn't worth it to take a chance and end up with a disease. If this OW is willing to sleep with your H then likely she is willing to sleep with other people too. Protect yourself just in case. Plus he has now given you a built in excuse. "Last time we did you said it bothered you so assumed it was off the table."
As far as what you should do, no do not move on a PA until you are sure with evidence. Stay vigilant. Stay observant. And be ready if and when the truth of a PA comes forward. That will be the time to take decisive action. So many LBSs have had a second BD (the truth of a PA) come out and were not ready to handle it properly. Remember, if it happens you should treat it the same way you should treat BD #1, but that few LBSs do. Calmly. Resolutely. Decisively. Firmly.
Let's pretend he just comes out and admits it: "I have been in a PA with OW, and seeing her regularly on these trips." Your response: "I see. Well that certainly changes things quite a bit. You will be sleeping in the guest bedroom for the time-being. If and when you decide to end this PA and recommit to the MR we can discuss what will need to happen at that time."
may, you've got this. Keep learning. Keep reading. Keep posting.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
May, what I am saying is to always error on the side of caution when it comes to sexual health. It isn't worth it to take a chance and end up with a disease. If this OW is willing to sleep with your H then likely she is willing to sleep with other people too. Protect yourself just in case. Plus he has now given you a built in excuse. "Last time we did you said it bothered you so assumed it was off the table."
Gotcha-- all makes sense. Plus, the last two times resulted in an R talk afterwards--never a good thing, especially in the middle of the night. And I end up not sleeping at all and having a terrible time the next day. Better to avoid.
Originally Posted by Steve85
As far as what you should do, no do not move on a PA until you are sure with evidence. Stay vigilant. Stay observant. And be ready if and when the truth of a PA comes forward.
Because she lives so far away (and because he must be deleting her call records and texts as soon as they come in when they talk-- I've had enough time with his phone to know there aren't any other apps or a mis-labeled contact) I think the only way I will ever find out is if he tells me.
It is so weird-- my H is someone who has prided himself his entire life on being 100% honest. He is/was very religious (is now questioning his faith in addition to everything else, and has stopped going to church) and he was very critical of people who lied, even small white lies. I could tell that he was lying about the two times he was with her on recent trips, and the way he responded to my question the other night about whether or not this had advanced into a PA did raise my red flags-- though more for in the past than currently.
Originally Posted by Steve85
So many LBSs have had a second BD (the truth of a PA) come out and were not ready to handle it properly. Remember, if it happens you should treat it the same way you should treat BD #1, but that few LBSs do. Calmly. Resolutely. Decisively. Firmly.
Let's pretend he just comes out and admits it: "I have been in a PA with OW, and seeing her regularly on these trips." Your response: "I see. Well that certainly changes things quite a bit. You will be sleeping in the guest bedroom for the time-being. If and when you decide to end this PA and recommit to the MR we can discuss what will need to happen at that time."
may, you've got this. Keep learning. Keep reading. Keep posting.
I will take this one to heart-- think I'll need to actually practice what I'll say in order to be able to do it.
Question-- earlier you said that EAs either burn out or turn into PAs. Do you think the physical portion is all that important in keeping the A going? I wonder because I think his emotional connection to the AP is quite strong-- he considers it a relationship, she feels the same way, etc.-- and they simply don't have very much opportunity to be physical with each other. I wonder if it makes his connection feel all the stronger being away from her. Yesterday I said something to him that I shouldn't have (was tired and sad) and he said "this isn't about her. this is about us." I said "if it was, you'd stop." and he said, "(pause) touche." I walked away and left it at that, but from our talk the other night, he feels he's tried to go NC and simply can't stick to it because of their connection. I just need to keep to the path, right, and either he'll start getting more interested in me and the MR or take a step in the other direction?
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
