Need Some Advice Please!!

[Gomez]

Thanks for all that advice Sandi. Wow, that's a lot to take in and its hard to know where to start with a reply!

So the sitch between us is generally that she doesn't show signs of stepping up her game in terms of being a housewife (she works p/t BTW) and we're getting on better because I'm not picking her up on it (I used to moan a lot about the state of the house and she's said its one of things she cant get over (I know this gives her a very easy out to do F-all!)). We do get on so much better because of this, but the fact she still wants to D suggests if she isn't still in contact with the OM (she's sworn on the boys lives she isn't FWIW) he's still in her thoughts. Maybe not but that's my gut feel. Do I assume she is still messaging him and behave accordingly or something else?

My understanding now is I need to 180, but this isn't the freezing cold approach I thought it was, more stop being there so much. My question is if I stop (for example) making her a coffee when I have one or going to the beach with her and the boys or going in the hot tub with her or similar, she's going to notice (yes I know that is the point) and ask why I'm being off with her. Why have you stopped making me a coffee, or spending time with your sons and I, or why do you refuse to help me when I ask for your help? How do I answer that question? I sure cant say "because you're still messaging the OM" because I'll get "you're paranoid, its in the past, you need to get over this" etc. In other words, surely there has to be some justification for the "tough love"? Do I still treat her as wayward even though she now says she isn't?

I've been frank with her and just asked her to be honest with me about the OM. She knows if were to have any sort of R, I wouldn't tolerate any communication with them but since we're already D'ing she can be honest and tell me if she is in comms with him, intends to meet up etc- I dont approve of it and I certainly wouldn't tolerate a relationship with it but I rather know than have it happen behind my back. To specifically answer your question, if she said she did want to communicate with him, meet up, have sex with him, whatever then there would be no 'us', I would be done. Maybe this is why she wouldn't tell me if she was? She has apologised about the messaging, that it was stupid, she regrets it, it was just a thrill etc etc. I probably should have busted her balls (metaphorically speaking ) more than I did. Apologies if this sounds incredibly naïve!

Which leads nicely on to boundaries. I've read the threads, I think I understand them. I just have no clue how to implement them. For example, she is lazy around the house. She spends to much time on her phone. I cant control that so how do I turn that into a boundary for me?

She's away with my youngest boy at her sisters for a week whilst I have the eldest. I haven't called her or messaged her yet (she went on Thursday). I'm trying to use the time to read, get perspective and start the GAL.

[sandi2]

I’m REALLY struggling with the detachment. I understand the theory. When she’s not around, I can give myself all sorts of mental pep talks. But when I’m around her I just can’t see it through. Where the hell do you get that mental toughness from? I just feel so lonely, I really regret not jumping at the chance to try again when she offered it.

I ended my previous post by saying you start by respecting yourself as a man. Look at the above quote. This is not, IMHO, a self-respecting man who thinks he should have jumped at the chance to take his wayward W's offer. Why do you think so little of yourself that you would not expect her to make necessary changes before you'd ever consider staying M to her? You said the attention feels good. Well, so what? She's giving other men attention and making them feel good, too. I go back to what I said about her temp checking you. This woman is nowhere close to wanting to change her ways, b/c she knows she can have you back without doing any changes. Trust me, it will take more than a little hot time in the tub and a day at the beach. That is nothing for her! Nothing! Changing her mindset & behavior patterns, and respecting her M........that's the real work for a WW. Ending all her inappropriate communication with OM.....cold turkey......that's real work. And guess what? When she gets SERIOUS about wanting to save her MR......she'll do whatever is necessary, and you will see her change. Until then, you aren't going to persuade her to reconsider ending the M, unless you are prepared to do what you should have done when she first said she wanted a D. Currently, you aren't there, but hopefully you are listening to us and will be able to learn how to change for a stronger version of yourself. I hope you don't take my words offensively, b/c I'm not trying to insult you. I simply want to help by sharing what I've learned.

You have to fight for the M, but you do in a way most LBH's with NGS resist until it's too late. Yes, I'm talking about tough love. You have to be willing and ready to give her up, if you hope to get her back. Don't settle for what she's doing, just b/c you turn to mush when she comes around you. Do you have any idea of what I'm referring to as tough love?

You think it's hard to detach, so I'll tell you what do. Just forget about detaching, until you learn how to apply tough love. I had to apply tough love to a couple of my kids and I wasn't detached from the love I felt for them.......but I loved them enough it mattered what kind of people they turned out to be. So, I had to let them learn there are consequences for choices/actions. There are actually men out there in the world who love their W's very much and have to use tough love methods. It wouldn't be "tough" if there were no feelings of love. What about your boys? Will you be able to apply tough love, if they rebel against the right thing to do? Will you hold them accountable for their actions? I wonder, b/c you have not held your WW accountable, or appear to expect more in a W than she is currently giving you. Frankly, I don't think this woman has magical powers that bewitch you. I think you are too afraid of losing her, and that fear has cost you her respect. Until you change your mental attitude, you will not have the MR....or love, from a woman that you want or deserve.

I thought that was the whole point of DBing? She said she wanted to try again about a month ago- why is it impossible? I appreciate its highly likely to end in D now but surely the whole point of Michelle’s books is there is still a chance?

Yes, there's a chance, but only if you change into a stronger man. Women don't want a H who is weaker than she is, so why do you think she tests him? Your W tested you, and you flunked. Try a different method. You can't nice a WW back. Am I saying to be a jerk? No, I am saying to find your b@lls and stop being like melty-cheese stick. No woman wants a melty-cheese stick for a husband.

She already knows you regret not jumping at her offer, b/c she's temp checked you. So now, you need to get a firm grip and start enforcing some boundaries. You are the faithful spouse, right? No inappropriate behavior with other women? Know your values and standards and don't compromise your integrity. Don't drop your standards, just b/c she has dropped hers. Study the boundaries link. Set you boundaries and be prepared to enforce those boundaries if they were dishonored. If the offending party does not experience some type of consequences, then it is unlikely they will start honoring your boundaries. It's that simple. So, be true to yourself.

The one thing a WW respects more than anything......is strength. If she sees you are a man of honor and strength, she'll want to be with you......if she has any remaining brain cells left in her head. Holding her accountable for her actions is critical, if this M has a chance for a future together. Calling her out if she treats you disrespectfully (even though you are in-house separated, bad treatment is not tolerated), enforcing boundaries, being prepared to take the next step toward ending the M......if she continues her current direction. These are a few ways you can show tough love. Sure, she may act mad or whatever at the time, but stick to your guns. She may NEVER admit it, but she will respect you if you do it in a way that represents strength & honor, instead of just being an a$$. Know what I mean?

She wants out of the M? Why is she still staying with you? What's her holdup? I don't think she's as ready as she claims. I think she wants one foot out and one foot inside. It's easy cake eating for her. The WW will eat lots & lots of cake if you serve it up. Playing happy family is serving cake. Having sex is serving cake, IMHO......and may be a life sentence if she sleeps with some other guy. Taking family vacations with the WW, is serving cake. Now, stay balanced when you start thinking about other ways she's getting cake. Whenever living under the same roof, there is going to be a certain amount of cake eating.... no way around it. In other words, she is going to benefit from being legally M to you and living in the marital home. Whether she sleeps with you or not, she benefits from the M. See what I mean? I point this out to explain that that is usually why a WW stays under the same roof or legally M once she gives the bomb drop. She wants to continue benefiting from his provisions, until she secures something else. Having sex while separated, is just another benefit for some women, without the responsibilities and honor that should come in the MR.

Please don't take any drastic measures without checking with the board first. I'm merely trying to show you a few things, okay? Don't get crazy and think you can't sit at the same dinning table or ride in the same car. Stay balanced here. ((hugs))

[Gomez]

Thanks for the guidance and absolutely nothing taken personally

So how does all this work in real terms? Take the OM for example: I can’t forbid her to communicate with him: a) that’s controlling and b) I have no way of knowing if she does it or not. My terms of continuing the R would be no contact, but she doesn’t want that anyway. Since I have no way of knowing who she’s messaging, it seems I can’t set boundaries around it. With the state of the house, walking in and complaining would be being an a$$ and rile her the wrong way. I don’t have any leverage (for want of a better word) in terms of containing the R so what do I say?

Stopping doing nice things for her is an option, but with the boys “tough love” is being cruel to be kind: they think we’re the enemy because we try to teach them right from wrong. How does this work with a WW?

[sandi2]

So the sitch between us is generally that she doesn't show signs of stepping up her game in terms of being a housewife (she works p/t BTW)

Ah, well that may explain the IHS. Has she tried to get you to finance her a place to live? Don't agree to anything without first checking with a lawyer.

(I used to moan a lot about the state of the house and she's said its one of things she cant get over (I know this gives her a very easy out to do F-all!)). We do get on so much better because of this, but the fact she still wants to D suggests if she isn't still in contact with the OM (she's sworn on the boys lives she isn't FWIW) he's still in her thoughts. Maybe not but that's my gut feel. Do I assume she is still messaging him and behave accordingly or something else?

Sadly, a WW will swear on her kids lives or her mother's grace, etc......but it's lie & deceive. That's her mantra while she is wayward and contacting any man who is not related to her.

Consider something. Are you really getting along better as a result of you dropping the complaining about her crappy housekeeping........or is b/c you have pretty much let her do whatever the heck she wants, basically releasing her of any wifely and motherly duties? I strongly suggest the latter. Your suspicious feelings that OM is still in her head is closer to the truth than you may realize. I spoke yesterday about how this becomes an addiction. (If you'll research PEA's it will explain the science behind it.) Just as with any other addiction, if she quits she will experience a sense of withdrawal. Every time she gets some type of contact with OM (written, orally, photo, social media, indirectly/directly) it acts as a "hit" and it cancels out any ground covered when she was going through withdrawals. I know it sounds crazy. I had never heard about it, until I came to the board. I certainly went through the withdrawals, myself.

Until your WW shows remorse, or at the least, presents authentic desire to get help in reconciliation......I think you need to assume she still has a wayward mindset. Even if she's pulled back on her previous inappropriate behavior, she's still thinking like a wayward. How do I know? You are still living IHS, right? Has she ever gone to you and expressed how wrong she was and how sorry she was for the pain and mistrust she's caused? If not, then I would assume her feelings have not changed. She only works part time, so she has a lot of time on her hands (which is not used in house keeping). With so many modern apps available these days, it would be pretty remarkable if she stopped cold turkey without any help from some type of information that gave guidance & encouragement. Most times, the WW has to experience the downfall of any fantasies she holds about getting a D and living the single life. Reality can be a tough teacher, but effective. Another reason for not serving a steady diet of cake to the WW.

My question is if I stop (for example) making her a coffee when I have one or going to the beach with her and the boys or going in the hot tub with her or similar, she's going to notice (yes I know that is the point) and ask why I'm being off with her. Why have you stopped making me a coffee, or spending time with your sons and I, or why do you refuse to help me when I ask for your help? How do I answer that question? I sure cant say "because you're still messaging the OM" because I'll get "you're paranoid, its in the past, you need to get over this" etc. In other words, surely there has to be some justification for the "tough love"? Do I still treat her as wayward even though she now says she isn't?

You can't just go by what she says, nor by just what she does. Her attitude, words, and actions must harmonize, in order for you to believe she is sincere about not being wayward. She has to get her heart right and have a sweet & respectful behavior toward her H. I'm afraid you have barely seen the tip of what's really going on, but that's not to say it can't change. If I thought otherwise, I would not be spending my Saturday talking to a LBH. The WW can be quick with comeback words. Just understand that tough love from her H was justified the second she stepped over the line and started communicating with men in that fashion. You are not required to justify to her why you are changing how you respond or handle the situation that now exists in the MR, thanks to her bad choices. Look, she knows, okay? Nobody knows any better than the WW that she deserves to be kicked out on her rear. (I'm not telling you to kick her out.) I'm just saying that she knows she is wrong. In her heart, she knows the truth. She knows she has and still continues to be deceitful.

To answer your question about making her a coffee.........do you make one cup at a time? If you make a pot full at a time, then continue doing it. That's not to mean you should carry her a cup a coffee, unless she does personal things for you. If she does, then don't make a big deal about carrying her a cup. I wouldn't like serve her a cup of coffee in bed, since she's sleeping in a separate bedroom, but that's just my opinion. If she asks why you stopped, then simply say, "I haven't received a copy of the ground rules for IHS". You could say something safer, like, "I don't think spoiling comes under IHS". Don't say it with an angry tone, nor say it jokingly. Use a stoic face and tone of voice. Will it pi$$ her off? Probably, but anything that doesn't serve her sense of entitlement will do the same. I don't think you should go out of your way to serve her, nor go out of your way to make her mad. I just think people who have a sense of entitlement, or as I like to call them.....spoiled, believe you SHOULD go out of your way to serve them. Whether you spoiled her willingly or she pressured it, you can stop doing it. When something is spoiled, it stinks!

If she throws your sons in your face when you aren't spending time around the house or with her, then tell her not to worry about how you spend your time or your relationship with the boys. Don't say it in a rude manner, but say it firmly enough she knows to lay off that type of manipulation. That's what it is, you know. You are so used to it that you can already anticipate some of her reactions.

If she is arrogant enough to ever tell you that you "need to get over it", then tell her that nothing would give you more relief than to see her making amends and the two of you working to put the MR on the road to recovery. Again, say it firmly but in a calm, confident and respectful tone. Don't be self-righteous, but don't let her get off by sounding as if the problem lies with you. She's done nothing that I've seen that looks like a WW who wants to do the right thing. She has controlled you all these years, and she wants to continue controlling. As long as she can manipulate you with her crafty use of words, she won't respect you. You don't have to accuse her of messaging the OM. Just learn to say reply to her needless questions in a way that gives her the message you are not stupid, and you won't accept a sorry excuse for a wife. (Well, not in those exact words.) Remember what I said about staying balanced in your thoughts and how you see yourself approaching her. I don't know how you hear my written words, but don't bite back at her just b/c she asks why you didn't bring her a cup of coffee. Find the middle ground, while you are learning a new way. Don't jump off into the deep end today. Learn to swim a little bit, first. Most of all, don't let her trap you into a relationship discussion, b/c you aren't ready for it. When you say something, keep moving.

To specifically answer your question, if she said she did want to communicate with him, meet up, have sex with him, whatever then there would be no 'us', I would be done. Maybe this is why she wouldn't tell me if she was? She has apologised about the messaging, that it was stupid, she regrets it, it was just a thrill etc etc. I probably should have busted her balls (metaphorically speaking grin) more than I did. Apologies if this sounds incredibly naïve!

It would have helped, if you'd told us this in the first post. You said she told you she wanted to try again, but you didn't say all that other stuff was included. Actually, I still don't believe her, unless there is more you haven't told. Something just doesn't ring true. She changed her mind too fast/easily, which sounds like it was a temp check originally. She still wants a divorce, and she appears to be playing games and more temp checking. What about you and not knowing if you can forgive her? See, this goes back to that push-pull syndrome you two have.

Yes, you should have busted her b@lls, I agree.

Which leads nicely on to boundaries. I've read the threads, I think I understand them. I just have no clue how to implement them. For example, she is lazy around the house. She spends to much time on her phone. I cant control that so how do I turn that into a boundary for me?

You tell me. What are you willing to tolerate and what means the most? Does an orderly house mean more, or living with her laziness? Does she even know how to organize and clean a house? Some gals don't get experience before marriage, so if the H does it for them......why learn? If she's on her phone and shopping most of the time, my guess is she doesn't want to spend her time cleaning. Would it be worth your money to pay someone to come in and clean the house? Maybe, take the money out of the house running budget to pay the cleaners. But, you said she spent lots of money, so she'll ignore a budget, unless you set up new house rules. Excuse me, I mean new financial guidelines. This would be a good time to tell her that if you two are going to be IHS then some financial guidelines need to be observed. After all, she wants to be on her own, yet she's living there while you finance everything. What about equality? She should pay for half, don't you think?

When setting boundaries, you have to think in terms of protecting you......not so much about controlling the other person. As for consequences for her not honoring your boundaries, it has to be something that comes as the result of dishonoring your boundary and the protecting action you took. In other words, the objective is not you punishing her, but enforcing protection for your feelings, moral standards, etc. For instance, if your boundary was "I will not stay in an open MR", and she would not stop an affair.....then you would divorce to protect yourself from the destruction of an open M. Maybe she would feel the sting of the action you took, maybe she wouldn't. The point is that you decided you would not live that way, so you took action to protect yourself. She had to deal with the results of your action. Make sense?

You know what is most important to your happiness and peace of mind. You have values and principles by which you live your life. I think that's where you have to start. Knowing what you absolutely cannot tolerate in your life, and what you will do to protect yourself from the pain, aggravation, contempt, unrest, or whatever feelings are experienced from that type of situation. It's similar to property boundaries. We don't let just let someone come on our property and start causing damage to our home or land. We have laws in place to protect us, but we have to take action. Make sense?

The thing about your sitch that concerns me is how you both want what appears to be unavailable at the time. Funny how that works with people, don't you agree? If she approached you today, wanting to reconcile, how would you feel this time? Would you take her at face value, or have some conditions you needed to see? I'm just asking, b/c I think you need to think deeply about it.

[Gomez]

Just a quick reply before I turn in (will reply fully tomorrow) about the EA/ OM.

She met him at a housewarming party. They began messaging and then sexting after that. I know whilst I was on a fishing trip with the boys she basically put it on a plate for him and he stood her up (I saw the messages before and after). After that, we had our tete-a-tete and she said she regretted it, been stupid etc. However, I know she has met up with him since (she claims just as friends and her messages to him confirmed that, she made it clear to him nothing would happen that day) but after that he went quiet on her again and she’s now said she’s realised he only wanted one thing so she’s not messaging him. Like I said, I saw messages between them that corroborated her story but I can’t do that anymore so I can’t be sure what’s being said between them if anything. I have another fishing trip with the boys later this month and I do worry what will happen when my back is turned but I guess there’s nothing I can do to stop her if she wants to.

[sandi2]

She met him at a housewarming party. They began messaging and then sexting after that. I know whilst I was on a fishing trip with the boys she basically put it on a plate for him and he stood her up (I saw the messages before and after). After that, we had our tete-a-tete and she said she regretted it, been stupid etc. However, I know she has met up with him since (she claims just as friends and her messages to him confirmed that, she made it clear to him nothing would happen that day) but after that he went quiet on her again and she’s now said she’s realised he only wanted one thing so she’s not messaging him. Like I said, I saw messages between them that corroborated her story but I can’t do that anymore so I can’t be sure what’s being said between them if anything. I have another fishing trip with the boys later this month and I do worry what will happen when my back is turned but I guess there’s nothing I can do to stop her if she wants to.

It really angers me that women seem to believe they can have inappropriate contact with another guy and then try to pass it off to their H that they are "just friends" afterwards. This is not acceptable, and the H should make it clear that there will be no future contact or the M is over.

Before my EA, I was contacting guys on line (long story). I never met up with anyone in person. They wanted to, but I would make up some excuse that I couldn't get away. It wasn't long before I had a long list of guys I would "chat" with every night. In a short time, this led to an EA with OM. It was the thrill I had not felt in a very long time, and it was intoxicating. It embarrasses me like you couldn't believe to even type these words out. I know how it affected me and my M, and I was a very straight-laced type of woman who previously would had looked down on anyone who participated in such behavior. So, yes, I was one of those women who "was not the type to get involved with OM". Enough time and under the right circumstances, I think any woman who has unfilled emotional needs can become vulnerable to some other guy's sweet words & attention. Once she crosses that line, it gets easier to do other things.

The first time my H found my messaging, he confronted me. I couldn't even look at him, and I cried. He told me to delete all the contacts, and I did. You would have thought I was cutting off my right arm when I was deleting those contacts. My nice-guy H was sweet and did not come down on me hard, as he should have. The second time he discovered my messaging to OM, I saw a side of my H I had never seen before, and he wasn't sweet about any of it! He was furious, but he did not tell me to leave or that he would D me. If he would have told me he was dumping me, b/c he deserved a wife who gave him the love he needed.........I honestly believe it would have jerked my head out of my a$$ into the reality I had caused. But, that didn't happen and I continued the EA.

Didn't have all the apps that's available today, but I got a burner phone and took the EA deeper under ground, and my H & I had no connection. We just existed under the same roof. We never said we were separated or anything. We had not slept together in years, so we just avoided each other. We tried to go on with our lives, but I was living a double life with my EA. I was preparing to leave and get an apartment, which I saw as a step toward moving in with OM later. I went as far as to tell one of my adult kids that their dad & I was having problems. My plan was to ease OM into the lives of my family, and thought they would eventually accept him. But, I was in for a shock. One of my other kids had accidentally discovered OM & my messaging on the computer. WW's can be in such a thick fog, they do stupid things.......like, forgetting to close out the screen, delete computer history, etc. Plus, while my adult daughter was on my home computer, OM thought it was me and his message popped up on the screen! Now, how stupid is that? Anyway, my daughter confronted me........and I knew I was busted. My fantasy crumbled. I found the DB board, and had wonderful mentors that gave me solid information about how affairs (or any type of inappropriate activity of that nature) are addictive. I knew in the bottom of my heart that I did not love this OM, but I wanted to feel that excitement. It was hard to let go.

I had a ton of negative feelings about my MR, and was not ready to commit to it. Finally, one of my mentors had me to just focus on ending all contact with OM. She explained what I could expect. There was something said that really hit hard. She asked if I could just do the right thing. I was raised to do the right thing, so her question pierced my heart. She pretty much held my hand as I focused, not on my M, but just ending my EA. It was one of the hardest things I've ever done, and it embarrasses me to admit that b/c, I've had some tough experiences in my life. You see, the whole EA had fueled my ego......which was starving, so I didn't want to give up the source of that emotional high. I felt as if I had cut my life line. Yeah, I know I am sounding dramatic, but it felt pretty drastic while going through it. It took me months to get through the withdrawals. I was so depressed and had no energy, no interest in my home/family or M, and my future felt so empty & hopeless. I don't know where I would be today if it had not been for the information I received from the board at that point in my life. That's why I'm still here today, trying to help newcomers as they struggle with their own WW's. BTW, my H & I are still together. Piecing was hard, and I had a lot of work to do on my heart, but when my heart got right then I was finally able to do the work my H needed to see me put forth in our relationship.

My H changed after that period in our lives. He is no longer the H with NGS, at least not in his relationship with me. Anyone can change for the better, if they really want it.

[Gomez]

Thanks again Sandi. Your scenario sounds very very similar to mine. My W was always straight as an arrow and I’d stake my life she never did anything like this when we were happy. She always said if I cheated on her I was cheating on the boys too. She thought people who had affairs were scum. But things haven’t been right for years now and very similar to you she admitted it was the ego boost, the flattery, the buzz, the fix. She said at first she wouldn’t send him any pics but once she’d done one it became easier and they became more graphic.

She has admitted she fancies him but knows he is a POS and there is no long term there. She’s even said many times to me, friends and family that she can see us getting back together in the future. WTF???? Maybe she just wants to have some fun, some meaningless sex and then come back to me when she’s done. I’ve said it won’t happen.

Everything you have said rings true with her. The depression, the lack of energy and drive. I think the guy is a player and probably only wanted some guilt free no strings sex and deep down she thinks the same (at least that’s what she said, don’t know if she truly believes that).

Any advice how I deal with the thoughts she may be with him whilst I am away with the boys fishing? Just the thought of it makes me feel sick.

[Gomez]

Okay massive update here. Before she was sexting the OM, she actually liked his BF but he had a girlfriend. Just found a load of new recent messages to the BF. He’s split up with his GF and she’s now messaging him! She doesn’t know I’ve seen the messages. How do I deal with this when she gets back?

[joejoe1]

Gomez,

It's time!!!!!! Time to let go, drop the rope, detach with love. You are too wrapped up in her to fix and love yourself. You have to love yourself, more than the craziness she is carrying on with.

How do you deal with it? Show her you won't tolerate it. Start to distance yourself. You don't need words, you need actions.

You need to research tough love. It has nothing to do with being cruel. It has everything to do with not allowing disrespect and respecting yourself.

Get the book, "love must be tough", by James Dobson.

Reread what Sandi said, about, if her husband had did certain things, it would of jerked her out of her fantasy. She mentioned what her husband actions were a few times, and focus on her actions when you reread her post to you.

[Gomez]

Thanks Joejoe. Dropping the rope and tough love is a given. I was more talking about specifics. Do I tell her I know what she’s been doing or is knowing for myself all I need? Do I lose my sh!t and tell her what a lying, cheating wh*re I think she is or do I simply detach without anger or fanfare and go back to looking after me and the boys. Do I tell her not to even think about meeting up with him whilst I’m away or do I go with a “do what you want I don’t give a sh!t anymore” attitude?

I’m not as upset as I was the first time I found out. This time I already thought it was happening, it just confirmed my gut feeling was right and helped me make sense of why we couldn’t make it work. Doesn’t me I don’t loathe her for it though!