So so new to this :(

[job]

Nyla,

I wouldn't ask your husband about whether or not he's discussed alimony w/his lawyer. He most likely has been advised as to what to expect in the way of paying alimony and child support. When you speak to your lawyer, ask him questions because you need to be up on your game as to what you are entitled to and allow your lawyer to do the heavy work for you. Divorce is a business deal and one that requires both parties to have others do as much of their heavy work as possible.

I am sorry that your h isn't attending your daughter's party. He's missing out on some really good memories, memories that can't be redone at a later date. Confirmation is a memorable achievement and one that is shared w/family members. Congratulations to her on her upcoming Confirmation.

You can make a list of short term goals for you and your children. There is nothing wrong w/that. Those goals should be ones that you want to do and haven't had a chance to do for quite some time. The list is for you and will help you keep your mind off your husband and what he's doing.

Good luck with your visit with the lawyer. Be sure to make a list of questions before you go. I'm sure that there will be more questions as you go along and he will be there to guide and support you. The most important thing is to protect yourself and ensure that you and your children have ample funds to live on.

[peacetoday]

My meeting with H went really, really well. He seemed like his old self, he was talking a lot, held eyecontact, joked around, so it was a good and confusing meeting. It made me wonder is he really this happy? Is he not in MLC? Could he just be a WAS? And if so is the approach for DB still the same? (I really would need the book to arrive already, I ordered it two weeks ago!)

You will know if it is MLC usually by the way they progress as well as their current choice of lifestyle
1-affair partner--sometimes younger-usually a loser (emotionally)

2-new clothes, tattoos, new cars, motorcycle, hair changes,
spends money carelessly, parties, drinks, drugs, gambles, stays up late, new friends, lies, irresponsible father,

3- usually gets worse over time-poorer choices, addictions, debt

Usually it does not matter if it is was or MLC
We act the same--and you are doing so well-
with your progress-

Im not sure the progress of a WAS
others might know
but
in my opinion the MLC life will consistently go downhill
as they reach for a fantasy life that does not bring them the happiness they think it will
they continue to raise the anti
of destruction--that is my opinion and that is how you will know for sure
You will see him living out MLC-and because it takes so long--you will see it clearly as time goes on-

trust the process

[Nyla79]

Thank you job and peacetoday.

The Confirmation is important to my daughter but at the same time she's still angry with her dad as they found out about the OW just a week ago, so I think even though it's sad he's missing the party, I think it's good to give her the time she needs away from him.

Peacetoday, I think what you wrote about mlc, does really apply to my husband, sighs...

The kids (S10 and D12) were supposed to go to H today, last night D12 told me she doesn't want to go, because she's still upset with him about the OW. At the same time she said that she doesn't want him to know that this is the reason she doesn't want to go there. She doesn't want to talk about this with him.


She said that she's worried that he will be sad or angry with her (poor thing considering her fathers feelings, when he clearly isn't considering anyones feelings) I told her that her thinking like that does show compassion and maturity but that she is not responsible for her fathers feelings. And shouldn't worry about them. He will love her, whether she goes to his house or not. And if she needs time to be ok with this OW, she can take all the time she needs. She then told me that H had told her that she's not allowed to be mean to the OW?!? My S told me the same thing last week. So in my D mind he's already taking her side against them.

I told D that she can be herself around the OW. Just like she is with me, with our Au pair, with her dad. She's allowed to show her feelings, the OW knew what she was getting into.

So my question is, what do I say to H about D not wanting to go to his house? Do I tell him the truth and tell him to give her the spance she needs? Or do I lie for her? (I personally think the truth is the way to go)

And how do I tell him that he can't tell the kids that they can't be mean to the OW? They are allowed to be whatever they are, they're children, if she can't handle it, she should have thought about it a bit earlier.

[job]

If I were in your shoes, I would advise your h that your children do not want to go to his place. They don't feel comfortable there especially is the OW is there. I would suggest that he give them the time and space to adjust to the entire situation and allow them to figure things out on their terms, i.e., about the OW and that living arrangement over there.

As for telling them that they can't be mean to the OW....well, she is a grown up and should know that kids say and do things sometimes w/o thinking. Your kids are old enough to know what's going on and that this woman has their father's attention. If she can't stand the heat, then maybe she should not be around when the kids come to visit. Your children should be allowed to be themselves no matter where they are at. I would ask for examples of the kids being mean to her. She may be saying this stuff to keep your h's attention on her and keep the kids in line.

[DnJ]

Good Morning Nyla

I’d take dreams returning to you as a good sign. It was for me.

I am glad you are seeing a lawyer. Have questions ready, and let them do the heavy lifting. This is just a business deal that’s gone sideways at this point. Treat it as such. You and your kids deserve financial protection and security.

You may want to ask about the custody rules for where you live. Just to know what options you could exercise. Kids who don’t wish to see or visit the other parent, depending on age and other factors - hard to say what could happen. It is best to ask those questions and find out. I was surprised at the rules here. Of course I never really had anything to do with those rules before so why would I understand them.

Yes, I think I'm in the anger state of my grief now. But I figured it's better to vent here, than to him.

Yep.

Glad your DB book arrived. There is a lot of good information in there.

Even though so far I think a lot of what I've read doesn't apply to MLC. Like in writing goals and making them short term. At the moment I can't ask anything from my husband, so scratch that, right?

I know what you mean. An MLCer is pretty far gone and a lot of those ideas and suggestions... well it gets complicated.

As you stated a lot of what you’ve read doesn’t apply. Hmmm. Yes and no. You can see how some advice just wouldn’t be successful at this stage. So it doesn’t directly apply, right now. However, seeing that, you see where he is and what has to happen, where he needs to get to, in order for the advice to be successful, so you learn and accept - therefore that does applies, it is just for you and your growth.

Writing goals and short term lists. Make them for you and your kids.

And you are correct. Asking your H, putting pressure on him, yeah, not recommended.

So my question is, what do I say to H about D not wanting to go to his house? Do I tell him the truth and tell him to give her the spance she needs? Or do I lie for her? (I personally think the truth is the way to go)

And how do I tell him that he can't tell the kids that they can't be mean to the OW? They are allowed to be whatever they are, they're children, if she can't handle it, she should have thought about it a bit earlier.

The truth is the way to go. There is more than enough lies from his side of the street.

Telling H what D12 is feeling is one thing. Telling H what he has to do - “tell him to give her the space she needs” - is quite another. MLCers are irrational emotional rebellious adolescents, telling them to do anything usually doesn’t work and your get the opposite result, or a completely sideways result. I mean wow, some of the stuff they do. It doesn’t even make sense. You ask for A, so you might expect they will rebel and you would get B - but no - you get cucumber. What?!? Cucumber? This does that even fit in with what we are talking about. I said you need to do A, and I get cucumber? What the... Where was I? Oh ya, telling him to do stuff. Oh and they really have Swiss cheese minds, just full of holes.

So instead of telling, just explain D12’s feelings and state she needs some time and space. This was just sprung on her, it is quite a shock.

You can’t control what H does. All you an do is say what D needs. What he does with that is up to him.

From me experience an MLCer doesn’t want responsibility. They really DO NOT want it. After my W (at the time) left, she got a job at the local hospital and then another other at another hospital in next town over. Jobs, with benefits, pensions, good wages, and steady hours. She quit both, because she couldn’t come and go as she pleased.

She, at first, also demanded to see the kids. This didn’t last long either. She saw them once a week for about 6 weeks, then it stopped.

They want their freedom, and responsibilities tie them down.

Explain daughter’s feelings and leave the ball in his court. He might just make decisions that align really well with everyone, if he is not told to do so.

As for OW.

What I told XW when she was trying to get everyone to like OM and go along with her new life. The kids have their own hearts and minds, have their own morals and values, know right and wrong - they will feel what they feel. You raised them really well, you know this. Each are their are their own person, and will make up their own mind.

H is being childish. He wants everyone to go along with him, and make her welcome. Yeah, whatever. Not gonna happen.

Nyla, your children will feel what they feel. And no one should be allowed to quash that.

DnJ

[peacetoday]

I also agree with everyone
The kids should be allowed to decline an invitation to meet OW

and again I would stall as long as possible creating space for everyone to heal-

I would ask the L for help on this especially if you see any of your kids stressing over this
ask the L how you can word it so your H is more willing to agree
The kids well being has to come before anything about him


No blame maybe start with a positive..
Then ask for time for all the kids to adjust and heal-
maybe ask them if they want some counseling and perhaps a counselor can help them directly express to their dad
their limits..so you can be involved at a distance
some counseling may help them so much if they are willing


But until a counselor is in place, and it is agreed by everyone,,,I would stall and let him know later when a good meeting time for OW might be



This becomes a business deal from now on-
He will be co-habituating with OW outside the M while still M
and DNJ is right--they lose interest int he kids over time
they want freedom, instant gratification and fun
they can no longer be good parents as you can see- and they get worse
so because of the ages of your kids..
I would fight for whats best
neither he or the OW will care about anything but themselves


I don't know how strong minded you H is or if he will blame you when you set boundries or if he will provoke a huge fight

I would prepare for anything and stay steady, brief and to the point

[Nyla79]

I met with H yesterday. I again told him I would talk with my lawyer to get the alimony agreement drafted. He again didn’t really comment on that. He seemed a bit absent minded.

I talked with him about the kids, telling him that they don’t want to come to his house for now and that they need space. He denied that he would have told them that they can’t be mean to OW. I said that I don’t want to argue about it, I’m just relaying what the kids feel and what they’ve said. I said that I can’t tell you what to do, but the kids need time, so it would be good for them if the OW is not forced upon them. When they eventually want to come and meet you, don’t try to sneak her in as well. The kids will ask to meet her when they want to meet her (if ever). He promised not to do this. But we all know what we can do with promises from a person in mlc…


Like I said, he seemed absent and even a bit sad. Completely different from the last time I saw him, which was less than a week ago. I think initially it hurt him that the kids don’t want to go to his house. Especially S10. They’ve always had such a special bond, I think this caught H off guard. Of course he didn’t show it. We agreed that he can ask the kids if they want to have dinner or something with him and see what they say.


D12 was so sad later because she felt like she had hurt daddys feelings. So sad. I tried to tell her that she is not responsible for his feelings and she did what was right for her. If she’s not ready to be ok with this situation, she doesn’t need to be. Poor girl.


I’m dreading the future when it comes to him and the kids because I can see it down spiraling from here. Now he gets his freedom and the OW moves here in 2 weeks. They’ll just sail to the sunset and enjoy life. Yuck!


But again no angry response from him. I barely get any emotional responses. More apologetic all the time. It is really confusing.

I noticed it yesterday when we met. He has started to say sorry about everything. He wasn’t so sorry about everything before, it was more like me to say sorry for silly things. Now for example, every time he can’t answer his phone when I call, he sends a message right away saying he’s sorry and can he call me back. If he send me a short (not rude) message, he calls and says he's sorry. Yesterday when we were talking about the kids and his phone rang, he was sorry, when he needed to take medicine in the middle of our conversation he was sorry. When he suggested something with finances and I didn’t agree he was sorry. Sorry, sorry, sorry. What is all that about?

[peacetoday]

I would not pay any attention to "sorry" let his issues be his-
he may be feeling confused and even remorseful
they are manipulative and as you see by his moods, they change rapidly
Im sure he will want you in his pocket while he explores the new R--just in case

You did great--for the kids
you bought time and please stick with it
He may forget everything you said already and be asking for kids to meet OW when she arrives-
I would hold a firm limit on this one and put all your energy into your healing, and becoming used to being both dad and mom now-His MLC will takes a long time and your kids will need a strong parent for them to go through teen life with
He will not be able to adequately be there for them from here on it is you-

[Nyla79]

Thank you peacetoday. I didn't even think of them as being manipulative, but now that you said it, of course that's what it is.

My D14 send me and H groupmessages once in a while. I think she's desperately trying to show her daddy that we were happy, she usually attaches videos or pictures in these messages. It just breaks my heart. And typical reply from H is: "It's late, silly" She's going thru a heartbreak caused by him and he just ignores her feelings and calls her silly!!! He is a monster.


Up until now, I have been determined to save our marriage. I will stand and wait, no matter what, but in the past weeks, since I found out that the OW is moving in with him, I’ve found myself doubting if this is what I really want. And like I said, I think I’m in the anger state of my grief now. I get angry with my H. Not so that he knows about it, but inside my mind. And yesterday when he sent me a text saying that he can’t pick up the kids today (they were supposed to have dinner with him) because he had such a bad stomach flu / food poisoning, I found myself hoping that he was hurting a lot and would get so dehydrated that he would need to go to the hospital.

I am not this kind of a person, and it shocks me to think like that. It’s just that even though he is civil and nice to me all the time now (Which I still wonder about) he’s still so cold. I made the mistake of reading our old messages from the time before BD, and I still couldn’t believe how wonderfully he wrote to me, just 2 weeks prior. About how he loved me so much and wherever he goes he carries a piece of me with him and could not imagine a life without me.

I wish I could just turn a switch and be done with this. Even though it has only been about 3 months since he moved away, thinking about him moving back in feels weird. I think I have done pretty well with detaching, specially after the news about the OW moving, can one detach too much? I almost feel like I have no interest in DB’ing anymore.

[DnJ]

Hello Nyla

I like to differentiate between detachment and indifference. Detaching one’s uncontrolled feelings from our spouse’s behaviours and emotional state. And finding one’s state of indifference towards our spouse. It just provides small chunks and more clarity, IMO.

Yes, you have done very well detaching. The news of OW moving would push that along really well, along with letting go. You question of can one detach too much; to me sounds like you are entering indifference and experiencing the muting of your feelings towards H - the lack of interest in DBing for example. Not to worry perfectly normal.

This is the time where all the noise from H and your feelings will silence and you can dig within, see who you are, who you want to be, do that inner work, and heal. This is an odd time to be sure. Something most people never get to experience. A time you will look back on and see as the gift it truly is.

A caution for you. Indifference lessens your feelings towards H, a lot. This leave a void, and nature abhors a vacuum. Other feelings will seem larger than they really are, as they fill this now empty space. Temptations, questions, doubts, etc... Stay the course. Feelings are fleeting and it will take time for you to find your center again.

You are doing really well Nyla.

DnJ