Yes, I am afraid of it. He's been violent that one single time, and never before or afterwards. He's not a shouter. He's more of a withdrawer / sulker. I think my fear is partly to do with how desperate I was for his approval - which is my issue to sort out in IC - and about how miserable the house was when he was in a mood - how snappy and unpleasant he can be when he's not feeling important enough. I do need to work more on that. I am extremely assertive at work, and I can be assertive with him, then live in horrific anxiety afterwards and end up placacting him in order to make sure I still have his approval. It's really messed up and there's a whole heap about that I can change. I lived with an extremely angry, violent, unpredictable and abusive father who was 100% a narcissist. I think I've carried a lot of that into this relationship and there's still work to do on building my sense of self and confidence. Deep down, I don't think the marriage can take me being assertive and having boundaries. But then I guess it isn't a marriage at all.
It must be very, very difficult to untangle your childhood crap from your H crap. I'm sure you'll get there eventually, in the meantime protect yourself.
Just journalling - I want to write down a few things that came up in IC so they're here and I can reflect on them more this week. I told her about my week - the mad ultimatum I gave, H coming back for a couple of days, how angry he is again and what a downturn things have taken, my preparations to buy him out of the house and formalise a divorce, his offer of therapy which is still on the table.
I said that last week, I was convinced the work would be to manage the fact that what I wanted wasn't reasonable, and if I could stop wanting it, I wouldn't be so sad. I left last week's therapy session realising that no, what I wanted was utterly reasonable, and not-having it in a relationship meant it was a relationship I no longer wanted to be in. That scared me, which is where all the ultimatum and divorce stuff comes from. And yet I have not pulled the trigger. I've gathered information and I've gone significantly darker, but I haven't done anything irrevocable yet. I don't want to divorce him just to frighten him. I need to be sure it is what I want. So we talked a lot about what keeps me where I am - what keeps me attached, or married, or not giving up hope.
IC thinks it would be helpful for me to look carefully at what exactly it is keeping me attached to him. Here are the things:
Guilt - I was missing in action for a long time in our marriage, and H was at the mercy of emotions that have nothing to do with him. There's a sense that I deserve this, have brought it on myself, and that I owe him a similar period of standing by in the face of poor behaviour, waiting for the storm to pass.
Hope: The part that thinks 'I owe him' believes that waiting, being patient, giving him love when he isn't being lovable, will be a way to 'wake him up' and bring him back to me - that he's just testing me and soon the test will be over. (I think this, even though I know it wasn't his love that brought me back to myself, but introspection and a long period of therapy).
Approval: The part that's guilty really really needs him to say 'you acted badly but I can see you have a good heart and I still want you' so that I can forgive myself and not feel awful anymore.
Hope: He wasn't always this way - it's new - and I still remember the man I married and the friendship we had, and I still - even in the past couple of days - see little glimpses of that man in some of his interactions with me and the kids (and the dog) and if he changed into who he is today, he can change back, and I don't want to pull the trigger before that happens.
Loneliness: we were each other's 'person'. We're both fairly reserved people and it takes a long time for us to trust and really know someone and let ourselves be known. We did have that - we used to stay up late talking, made each other laugh, turned towards each other and wanted to know and to be known. That was real and it was there for a really long time. I have friends but I don't have that intimacy with anyone else, and I want it in my life, and I want it with him, and I can't imagine ever being reckless enough to have it with anyone else. We chose each other above all others. That's what being married means.
Compassion: My perception that while yes, he's acted disgracefully and and in ways that were totally unacceptable, that isn't who he really is. He's defensive and angry and controlling and manipulative, but I know from my own experience of acting in these ways, which I have, that these are just layers over who he really is, and if I could somehow get past them, then the real him would be in there waiting for me. I've tried everything I can to get past those layers, and the waiting nearby and leaving the door open is the only thing I haven't tried.
Fear. Two things: I'm afraid of what being divorced would be like. Of having to face the fact my marriage failed, we couldn't make it work, and that I am half responsible for that. Of having to face the consequences of all the things I did wrong in my marriage, and all the ways I handled his heart without care. Of what life would be like - Christmas and birthdays and my children's graduations and weddings - of all of those occasions being a fresh wound for the rest of my life.
Second thing: (this one is weird) fear of making him angry. He doesn't want to get divorced. He wants - he says - to go to therapy with me, and whether that's a clean motivation on his part or not, he doesn't want to get divorced. He doesn't want to properly leave our home - all his things are here - and he doesn't want us to think of ourselves as single people. He doesn't want to be married in the way I understand it either, granted - but if I were to pull the trigger I'd be taking away his choice, his safety net, his plan B, and he'd be furious about that and I'm scared. I'm not scared he would be violent towards me and financially I would actually be in a slightly better position - but I am scared of how he'd act towards me in the times we had together - how bitter he'd be, and how what is left of our friendship would be dead.
I'm really glad that you're looking to the future, Dilly. That's something I find so so difficult. Do you have any suggestions for me? I find it very hard to imagine or plan my life these days, and some days it feels totally paralysing (great word, 97Hope). I've alway been a planner and the time that H and I have spent together has been pretty carefully planned. We had joint goals. I think we still do, actually - the things we want for our lives and our family life are the same, as far as I know - we just don't seem to be in the same room as each other right now! It feels like my life's path has entirely disappeared and I'm just sitting here in the day, making sure the kids needs are fulfilled and I do enough work so I don't get in trouble. Most of my time goes into what I'd call 'healing' type activities - walking and resting and seeing friends and taking care of my kids and my house, reading, living quietly, managing my emotions. There's no forward direction or ambition any more.
There's a house that has come up for sale at the top of my street. For a few years now H and I have talked about looking for a slightly bigger house with more living space as the kids have grown and I work at home more and more, but not wanting to move out of our area, which is perfect for us in lots of ways. It's a lovely house. I can see us living there - despite everything I've said about him. It's a pipe dream. Don't worry, I am not going to buy it with him! But it's sad, because we could afford it and we should be jumping at the chance to get it - that was the future we wanted.
I have a promotion opportunity coming up at work and I should be using this quiet time to prepare for it and make an application, but I've done nothing about it and I am stuck. It would be nice to have more money and a slightly different type of work, but it would involve a little more travel. There's the potential, depending on all kinds of things, that I could take the promotion and reduce my hours without having a meaningful impact on my income. But that's the kind of decision a married woman makes after talking to her husband and thinking things through. After making a decision about whether they are going to buy the big house at the top of the road or not. After thinking about where they'd want to be in five year's time, and which secondary school they want to get Youngest into. I can't have conversations with anyone about that kind of thing any more, and the future years have just kind of... dissolved.
I can't even choose bloody garden furniture. It was always the plan to get some new stuff this summer, and I was going to do it on my own last weekend, and I couldn't bring myself to do it - even though I was angry with him and also planning to buy him out of the house. Maybe I need to get the furniture and take some small steps.
Planning for the future: maybe you should just start with the garden furniture? You don't have to make grand plans like moving house right now. You SHOULD go for the promotion though! More money for less work? A no brainer! That's not something you need to discuss with your H, that's something to just do for future you. I get the feeling you are a bit stuck doing all the domestic stuff and caring and living a small life. A new job would give you a bigger life, no? Go for the bigger life.
Plan for the bits of the future which you can control and which don't depend on your H. Make small plans, like your walking holiday. Ask yourself what you would do if you were divorced, and do those things. If you do ever R then he can fit round you or you can both flex round each other, but for now you are single, so act like it in making decisions.
Just journalling - I want to write down a few things that came up in IC so they're here and I can reflect on them more this week. I told her about my week - the mad ultimatum I gave, H coming back for a couple of days, how angry he is again and what a downturn things have taken, my preparations to buy him out of the house and formalise a divorce, his offer of therapy which is still on the table.
I said that last week, I was convinced the work would be to manage the fact that what I wanted wasn't reasonable, and if I could stop wanting it, I wouldn't be so sad. I left last week's therapy session realising that no, what I wanted was utterly reasonable, and not-having it in a relationship meant it was a relationship I no longer wanted to be in. That scared me, which is where all the ultimatum and divorce stuff comes from. And yet I have not pulled the trigger. I've gathered information and I've gone significantly darker, but I haven't done anything irrevocable yet. I don't want to divorce him just to frighten him. I need to be sure it is what I want. So we talked a lot about what keeps me where I am - what keeps me attached, or married, or not giving up hope.
IC thinks it would be helpful for me to look carefully at what exactly it is keeping me attached to him. Here are the things:
Guilt - I was missing in action for a long time in our marriage, and H was at the mercy of emotions that have nothing to do with him. There's a sense that I deserve this, have brought it on myself, and that I owe him a similar period of standing by in the face of poor behaviour, waiting for the storm to pass.
Hope: The part that thinks 'I owe him' believes that waiting, being patient, giving him love when he isn't being lovable, will be a way to 'wake him up' and bring him back to me - that he's just testing me and soon the test will be over. (I think this, even though I know it wasn't his love that brought me back to myself, but introspection and a long period of therapy).
Approval: The part that's guilty really really needs him to say 'you acted badly but I can see you have a good heart and I still want you' so that I can forgive myself and not feel awful anymore.
Hope: He wasn't always this way - it's new - and I still remember the man I married and the friendship we had, and I still - even in the past couple of days - see little glimpses of that man in some of his interactions with me and the kids (and the dog) and if he changed into who he is today, he can change back, and I don't want to pull the trigger before that happens.
Loneliness: we were each other's 'person'. We're both fairly reserved people and it takes a long time for us to trust and really know someone and let ourselves be known. We did have that - we used to stay up late talking, made each other laugh, turned towards each other and wanted to know and to be known. That was real and it was there for a really long time. I have friends but I don't have that intimacy with anyone else, and I want it in my life, and I want it with him, and I can't imagine ever being reckless enough to have it with anyone else. We chose each other above all others. That's what being married means.
Compassion: My perception that while yes, he's acted disgracefully and and in ways that were totally unacceptable, that isn't who he really is. He's defensive and angry and controlling and manipulative, but I know from my own experience of acting in these ways, which I have, that these are just layers over who he really is, and if I could somehow get past them, then the real him would be in there waiting for me. I've tried everything I can to get past those layers, and the waiting nearby and leaving the door open is the only thing I haven't tried.
Fear. Two things: I'm afraid of what being divorced would be like. Of having to face the fact my marriage failed, we couldn't make it work, and that I am half responsible for that. Of having to face the consequences of all the things I did wrong in my marriage, and all the ways I handled his heart without care. Of what life would be like - Christmas and birthdays and my children's graduations and weddings - of all of those occasions being a fresh wound for the rest of my life.
Second thing: (this one is weird) fear of making him angry. He doesn't want to get divorced. He wants - he says - to go to therapy with me, and whether that's a clean motivation on his part or not, he doesn't want to get divorced. He doesn't want to properly leave our home - all his things are here - and he doesn't want us to think of ourselves as single people. He doesn't want to be married in the way I understand it either, granted - but if I were to pull the trigger I'd be taking away his choice, his safety net, his plan B, and he'd be furious about that and I'm scared. I'm not scared he would be violent towards me and financially I would actually be in a slightly better position - but I am scared of how he'd act towards me in the times we had together - how bitter he'd be, and how what is left of our friendship would be dead.
That's a comprehensive list there! Maybe you should look at which of those emotions are useful to you moving forwards and which ones are just unproductive? Guilt: This stuff is in the past. You can learn from the past, but you shouldn't loiter there too long. Self-compassion is key to you letting go of your guilt. Have compassion for yourself, not just your H. Approval: um, my gut feeling is this is unhealthy! Hope: well, you can hope for lots of things but life doesn't turn out how you hope it does. You can hope for a better life without him as much as with him, and that's the only version you have control over... Loneliness: yes, I get this. Your M is a primary attachment bond, and its disruption exposes a lot of abandonment fears. I can't imagine having that bond with anyone else, that's why we stand for so long. But if we do D then we will build that again (well, if we allow ourselves to, I see so many people who have Ded and are so BITTER, they can't move on). I think this loneliness is inevitable. Compassion: again I feel this, like the real H is underneath all this pain somewhere and I would so love him to come out of it and be himself again. He seems so lost Fear: this is understandable. But those weddings and funerals will be few and far between and you would rebuild new traditions eventually. A bunch of people on here have come through relatively unscathed from christenings and mother's days etc, once they are detached they seem ok about it, though it would never be easy. And don't you already feel that guilt and sorrow over your M? I don't feel like that would increase with D, I think eventually you would forgive yourself and move on. Grief seems part of this process no matter whether D or R happens. Fear of his anger: hmm, again, unhealthy Alison! His responses are HIS decision, not yours. If you're ever going to R, you need to get over your fear of his anger. Really, if you D you'll need to as well, because you will be involved with each other's lives because of the kids. So either way, this is something you have to work on.
Yeah - none of it is healthy, really. None of it is stuff to base a marriage on. I think getting it out there where I can see it is only the first step. Will carry on this work with IC. Also the work on making plans for my future. I am sorting out Youngest's party today. Hiring bouncy castle, etc. I will let H know what I have decided and what time it is (the children's party) but that's all. He texted me a link today to an expensive present and asked me what I thought. I said 'I think Youngest would like that,' and just left it at that. I have no idea whether he is telling me about something he plans to buy, or whether he is asking me to buy it, or whether he wants to go halves on it. I will assume he's buying it himself unless he tells me otherwise.
Plans for the future. I definitely need to work on this. I'm in a quiet period at work right now and will be for some time. I will be doing main childcare over the long summer holidays, which is usual and fine and expected. September things will gear up for me again, and be very hectic between October and December. I've been at home a lot concentrating on domestic things, that's true - but there is work I could and should be doing and I'm not. My head feels like cotton wool most days and some days it's only having the dog that means I don't go back to bed after the school run. I don't think I am depressed - I am sleeping and eating okay - but there's a constant sadness that is a heaviness on my body and an internal chattering and preoccupation with my situation that I find very hard to shift. I could make some plans for the summer.
Thats good advice from Dilly so I will only add to it here and there.
I think you have spent too long looking in the mirror. Self reflection can be a powerful tool for becoming a better version of yourself. But look too long and it becomes almost like reverse narcissism. By all means look in the mirror, but don't drown in it.
Also - you offer him much more compassion and forgiveness than you give to yourself.
The sadness you feel is normal. We have all been there. Not the crazy sadness of before, but quieter, sitting in the background, but still known, still infecting everything you touch, think or do. You can't will it away. You can't use logic to think your way through it. All you can do is get up each day and keep going. The sadness will get quieter. You will be able to go an hour, then a day, then a week without bursting into tears. But the only way through it is to go through it.
Make those plans for the summer.
1. Take the kids away somewhere. Center parks is a good option or get a camper van and drive up to cornwall - both good options you could do with the dog. 2. Go away on your own. Google flashpack (who I am going away to Croatia with in August) and tick something off your bucket list or pick something you think will challenge you mentally and physically. It's hard with kids but just tell your H you are going away on your own for a week in the summer and which week would be most convenient for him. If he doesn't tell you give him some options. If he is still an [censored] then try your/his parents.
The second one is important. You deserve an adventure.
It is hard to get out of your own head. But, it is possible. Actions beget thoughts.
I have felt and sometimes still feel every one of those things that you list. I suspect we had a similar marriage. I think we both had co-dependency issues. It happened organically, but if I ever have another R with anyone then it won't be happening.
So what to do?
Nothing
Force / fake the detachment until it becomes the reality. Divorce doesn't force detachment, but time and positive non-action will help.
I am not ready to D either. I would have happily waited until I felt stronger and had grieved enough, but I don't have that luxury.
Use the advice here from FS and Dilly and allow yourself to grow strong. Every day it gets a little bit clearer and a little bit easier.
Hope: He wasn't always this way - it's new - and I still remember the man I married and the friendship we had, and I still - even in the past couple of days - see little glimpses of that man in some of his interactions with me and the kids (and the dog) and if he changed into who he is today, he can change back, and I don't want to pull the trigger before that happens.
Well he can change back, it happens. There was this couple coaching in Retrovaille, the man had multiple affairs, took up heavy drinking, completely alienated himself from their kids and in many ways was one of the more "extreme" LBS's that I've ever heard of. His W meanwhile conducted herself with dignity and respect the entire time and never said a bad word about him. She took the view that he was sick and just needed time to get back to normal. She convinced him to go to Retrovaille and he hated it, after the weekend he went right back to his womanizing and drinking. He finally hit rock bottom (if I recall I think he was driving drunk and had a really bad accident) and started to come out of it. Eventually they went to Retro a second time except that time he went with a humble spirit and willing to participate. They got back together and at the time of our session I think it had been twenty years since that all had happened, and meeting them you would never, ever guess they had that in their history. They just seemed like one of those elderly couples that get along great and are super happy together and always have been.
Anyway it can happen, but unfortunately we don't know IF it will happen, or if it will, WHEN. My XW seems perfectly happy with her new life, she has really embraced it. She delved a little into the girls-gone-wild behavior but it was short-lived and she seems much more like her old self, but content to never be married to me again, LOL! That's what makes this so difficult, what is the "right" decision? You just have to choose, be comfortable with your choice, and never look back.
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Fear. Two things: I'm afraid of what being divorced would be like. Of having to face the fact my marriage failed, we couldn't make it work, and that I am half responsible for that. Of having to face the consequences of all the things I did wrong in my marriage, and all the ways I handled his heart without care. Of what life would be like - Christmas and birthdays and my children's graduations and weddings - of all of those occasions being a fresh wound for the rest of my life.
For a long time after BD and especially after S I felt like a failure. Like I had let my XW down, my kids down, myself down. Now with more years behind me I know I didn't let anyone down. Sure there was room for improvement but I was a pretty darned good husband and father. Whatever happened to my XW, at the end of the day it wasn't my fault. She basically just decided she didn't want to be married anymore, and that is really about all she ever said in way of explanation. I was hiking with my D once and she said something like "dad, you and mom had a really good run together, and raised 3 wonderful kids. You should be proud of that, not many couples today stick together as long as you did." That's actually a great way of looking at it, not as a failure, but as a SUCCESS. 25 very happy years together, raising 3 amazing kids to adulthood, helping each other to two very successful professional careers. So we didn't stick together for life, who says we have to in order to call it a "success"? Are 25 happy years together and an additional 25 miserable years together a "success" whereas 25 happy years together and then 25 happy years apart a "failure"?
I am away with work right now. It's nice to be in a hotel. Their bathroom is cleaner than mine and the hot water is free!
Had a surprising time with H yesterday. He arrived earlier than arranged so caught me as I was getting ready to leave and offered to drive me to the station. I accepted, and we had a bit of a talk in the car. He was very clear and calm and talking about what was going on with him. No back-biting or belittling or jabs at me at all.
He said from his point of view, he'd been there for me through all my bad time, and that even now when things were so awful between us he hoped that I knew he'd be there for me if anything awful happened to me and the kids. I think I do know that - he's behaved appallingly and can be very cruel, but early in our situation - when things were terrible (much worse than they were even in the last week or so between us) someone tried to break into the house and I called him in the early hours of the morning and he scraped the ice off his car in the middle of the night and turned up to check the house and the doors and the garden. He's an acts of service kind of person.
He said over the last six months of this project he had really been struggling and he didn't feel like I was there for him in the same way - that I'd just ran out on him. I just validated. There were a couple of things I could say - like - his behaviour pushes me away rather than wants me to get close, and when I try to be there for him (like making the dinner, and looking after him when he is sick) he is pretty mean about it and doesn't seem to accept it or feel supported or cared for. I could also have said that I don't want a mother to look after me in bad times, but I want a partner who will be there in the good times too. But I STFU and just validated a bit.
He seemed to really want to tell me that, so I just listened then got out at the train station. I didn't feel like he was trying to manipulate me - he didn't ask me to do anything or change my mind about anything - he just seemed to want me to know. I said, 'thank you for telling me, I will think about what you've said really carefully'. And I will - but not right now because I want to work and concentrate on myself for a bit first.
He said 'we don't seem to be able to talk to each other - we need help with that - but in a week or two we will have a counsellor who will help us with this' and I didn't tell him I wouldn't go to counselling with him, I just listened to him some more. He looked pretty awful but he was kind enough to me and it wasn't awful.
I think Fly, you are right, and I look at myself and my own part in this too much, and that too much self reflection can make me a bit crazy and stop me taking action. I am so busy examining our history and my character and motives that I am not taking the action I need to take to set boundaries, move forward, improve my own life. And I need to concentrate on that. I can't imagine counselling being a success if I am still too afraid of his anger to say what I really think, or if I am still so desperate for his forgiveness that I can't draw boundaries and be fully prepared to walk away from a relationship that doesn't meet my needs.
When I get home I am making some GAL plans that will include garden furniture. Small steps.
