Dad, I was thinking about your sitch on my drive into work. It reminds me of a lot of my own sitch. As I said above in my analogy of the car. After BD, 180ing on my W's complaints would have gotten me no where. Not that I didn't need 180s, I did. But suddenly becoming super attentive, and becoming Mr. Mom around the house would not have got me to where I wanted to be. The routine maintenance that would have worked prior to BD would no longer work. Changing the oil of a blown engine is a waste of time and oil.
However, I did institute the below, and I think they might pay dividends in your sitch too. I am a huge proponent of detachment (in a healthy marriage called "self differentiation", I would google that because it can help with understanding), GAL, and 180s. And those should be your focus because they focus on you not her. The temptation right now is to be hyper-focused on her, and that will just apply pressure to her and cause her to run even further away. But here some other things I learned and did:
1) Learn to be a good listner. Prior to BD I was a horrible listener. I, like you, had a ton of hobbies. And I was a huge sports fanatic. i wouldn't even look up from what I was doing no matter how important or serious the conversation she was trying to have was. And if she asked me to pause what I was watching or doing, I did so with a huge amount of attitude, sighing heavily, and making her feel like a huge interruption. After BD I came across some advice on active listening to my spouse and went like this: STOP what you are doing. TURN to her. MAKE eye contact with her. CONCENTRATE on what she is saying. STOP TURN MAKE CONCENTRATE. Learn that and remember it. Use it at every opportunity that she gives you from here on out. After I practiced this and got good at it, I got really good at pausing, muting, or better yet, turning off the TV to listen to her. Also, I would do the same with anything else I was doing. After all, nothing I could be watching or doing could be more important to me than her! And remembering that made it much easier to do.
2) Learn to empathize. I was watching Spiderman 3 this weekend. And there is a great scene where Mary Jane comes to Peter's apartment wanting to confide in him about a bad review a critic had written about her Broadway performance. Peter launched into typical guy "trying to fix it mode". What Mary Jane really wanted from him was for him to listen and empathize with how she was feeling. Around here we call it "validation". For me it was a struggle. I am a fix it guy. If she comes to me and says her step-sister was mean, I want to go into remediation mode. What I learned to do was SHUT-UP first (see #1)....LISTEN.......and VALIDATE. As guys we like to launch into advice, or telling them not feel what they are feeling, or how we would handle it. Most of the time our wives don't want that. That want to be HEARD and EMPATHIZED with. We have a thread here called The Validation Thread. Dad, have you read it? It goes along with the active listening technique very well. "Oh wow, I can understand how that would make you feel." Things like that. Do not fix. Do not advise. Do not tell her how you would handle it. Let her know you understand what she is going through.
3) Institute talk charges. This one is controversial because many see it as pressure and pursuit. But I think it can be done without pressuring or pursuing. Once a day, find something small to tell her. Something interesting. Or somthing funny. Or something she can relate to. Call her up and just go like this: "Hey, I was driving to work this morning and this news item came on the radio. Apparently if you mix 1 part apple cider vinegar to 1 part water, you can clean the dogs' ears with it and it will prevent ear infections! Thought that was a neat tip. Okay, talk to you later." and hang up. This can even be done on VOICEMAIL! When was the last time you did that to her? Just gave her a quick fact, or funny story, or something, and then hung up. Do not get into any thing logistical. Do not try to fix a problem for her. And certainly do not get into anything relationship oriented. But just keep it quick, fun, and then hang on. Continue to do this, and not only will she come to expect it, she will look forward to it. Eventually my W, who on BD wanted nothing to do with me, started reciprocating. I couldn't believe it. And believe it or not we started to connect over these "talk charges".
4) Optional: Touch charge. Similar to talk charges. As you pass her in the kitchen just lightly brush up against her. Maybe she is at the sink and you have to pass behind her, put your hand lightly on the small of her back and you scoot past. Be careful with this one. No sexual touching. Be discrete and subtle with these. And don't go out of your wait to create them, just as you get the opportunity.
In your sitch, be careful with that last one. My W was resistant to touch, but over time it slowly broke the ice.
Remember, avoid R talks like the plague. Obviously, never start one. If she starts one, listen (see #1!), validate. If she asks questions feel free to give her answer like "There is so much to consider, I am still thinking things over and needs some time to respond to that." Things like that. When there is no question, listen and validate. Validation is great because it isn't agreement. You aren't agreeing with what she is saying you are just letting her know you hear, and that you understand her perspective. That's it.
Dad, I know it seems dire. My sitch seemed dire too. But as I instituted self-improvements, once I did #1 and #2 at every opportunity I had, as I broke the ice with her with talk charges, and reintroduced my touch with touch charges that were subtle and discrete, she started to warm back up to me. I think you have a similar opportunity using a similar formula.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Dad, I was thinking about your sitch on my drive into work. It reminds me of a lot of my own sitch. As I said above in my analogy of the car. After BD, 180ing on my W's complaints would have gotten me no where. Not that I didn't need 180s, I did. But suddenly becoming super attentive, and becoming Mr. Mom around the house would not have got me to where I wanted to be. The routine maintenance that would have worked prior to BD would no longer work. Changing the oil of a blown engine is a waste of time and oil.
However, I did institute the below, and I think they might pay dividends in your sitch too. I am a huge proponent of detachment (in a healthy marriage called "self differentiation", I would google that because it can help with understanding), GAL, and 180s. And those should be your focus because they focus on you not her. The temptation right now is to be hyper-focused on her, and that will just apply pressure to her and cause her to run even further away. But here some other things I learned and did:
1) Learn to be a good listner. Prior to BD I was a horrible listener. I, like you, had a ton of hobbies. And I was a huge sports fanatic. i wouldn't even look up from what I was doing no matter how important or serious the conversation she was trying to have was. And if she asked me to pause what I was watching or doing, I did so with a huge amount of attitude, sighing heavily, and making her feel like a huge interruption. After BD I came across some advice on active listening to my spouse and went like this: STOP what you are doing. TURN to her. MAKE eye contact with her. CONCENTRATE on what she is saying. STOP TURN MAKE CONCENTRATE. Learn that and remember it. Use it at every opportunity that she gives you from here on out. After I practiced this and got good at it, I got really good at pausing, muting, or better yet, turning off the TV to listen to her. Also, I would do the same with anything else I was doing. After all, nothing I could be watching or doing could be more important to me than her! And remembering that made it much easier to do.
2) Learn to empathize. I was watching Spiderman 3 this weekend. And there is a great scene where Mary Jane comes to Peter's apartment wanting to confide in him about a bad review a critic had written about her Broadway performance. Peter launched into typical guy "trying to fix it mode". What Mary Jane really wanted from him was for him to listen and empathize with how she was feeling. Around here we call it "validation". For me it was a struggle. I am a fix it guy. If she comes to me and says her step-sister was mean, I want to go into remediation mode. What I learned to do was SHUT-UP first (see #1)....LISTEN.......and VALIDATE. As guys we like to launch into advice, or telling them not feel what they are feeling, or how we would handle it. Most of the time our wives don't want that. That want to be HEARD and EMPATHIZED with. We have a thread here called The Validation Thread. Dad, have you read it? It goes along with the active listening technique very well. "Oh wow, I can understand how that would make you feel." Things like that. Do not fix. Do not advise. Do not tell her how you would handle it. Let her know you understand what she is going through.
3) Institute talk charges. This one is controversial because many see it as pressure and pursuit. But I think it can be done without pressuring or pursuing. Once a day, find something small to tell her. Something interesting. Or somthing funny. Or something she can relate to. Call her up and just go like this: "Hey, I was driving to work this morning and this news item came on the radio. Apparently if you mix 1 part apple cider vinegar to 1 part water, you can clean the dogs' ears with it and it will prevent ear infections! Thought that was a neat tip. Okay, talk to you later." and hang up. This can even be done on VOICEMAIL! When was the last time you did that to her? Just gave her a quick fact, or funny story, or something, and then hung up. Do not get into any thing logistical. Do not try to fix a problem for her. And certainly do not get into anything relationship oriented. But just keep it quick, fun, and then hang on. Continue to do this, and not only will she come to expect it, she will look forward to it. Eventually my W, who on BD wanted nothing to do with me, started reciprocating. I couldn't believe it. And believe it or not we started to connect over these "talk charges".
4) Optional: Touch charge. Similar to talk charges. As you pass her in the kitchen just lightly brush up against her. Maybe she is at the sink and you have to pass behind her, put your hand lightly on the small of her back and you scoot past. Be careful with this one. No sexual touching. Be discrete and subtle with these. And don't go out of your wait to create them, just as you get the opportunity.
In your sitch, be careful with that last one. My W was resistant to touch, but over time it slowly broke the ice.
Remember, avoid R talks like the plague. Obviously, never start one. If she starts one, listen (see #1!), validate. If she asks questions feel free to give her answer like "There is so much to consider, I am still thinking things over and needs some time to respond to that." Things like that. When there is no question, listen and validate. Validation is great because it isn't agreement. You aren't agreeing with what she is saying you are just letting her know you hear, and that you understand her perspective. That's it.
Dad, I know it seems dire. My sitch seemed dire too. But as I instituted self-improvements, once I did #1 and #2 at every opportunity I had, as I broke the ice with her with talk charges, and reintroduced my touch with touch charges that were subtle and discrete, she started to warm back up to me. I think you have a similar opportunity using a similar formula.
Steve,
Thank you so much for the thoughtful post. You are absolutely right with the car analogy. The car is totaled and I’m trying to give it a detail by helping out more. I also have not been a good listener. We had a good discussion yesterday when she brought up a difficult situation at her work. I listened intently and validated, also gave some advice but she did directly ask what I would do. I also asked for some advice on my upcoming job interview. We are still in a place where we can discuss stuff like that. She also likes to discuss the separation etc. so I have to do that too.
I’ll keep the touch stuff in mind too. That is the kind of minor affection that she would have loved previously. I’ll have to be very careful though as you said.
I’m also going to look in to a consult with an attorney.
That’s pretty much what I’ve been doing. Helping out around the house, dinner, dishes, laundry, etc. I know she appreciates the help, I should have done this long ago.
A lot of us became the world's greatest housekeeper after BD. It's like Steve said though, that's like getting an oil change after you've thrown a rod through the side of the block. Some beta behavior (in combination with alpha) is great in a happy marriage, but after your M crashes and burns then doubling down on beta behavior just looks weak and pathetic to the WAS. You've got to get back in touch with your alpha side. The sooner the better.
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There’s something different about her this time. She talks about our future apart so matter-of-factly. She’s told her friends and mom (not her dad yet, her parents are divorced) that we are getting divorced.
Yes, BD is different than anything you've been through before. This isn't just another fight that you can sooth over with some flowers. She is DONE. For now anyway. With time that may change, but there is no quick fix to "get things back to normal". She is following the typical pattern. Believe us when we say you have a long road ahead.
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I’m out of chances and ideas. I’m pretty humble but I’m also very successful and driven, I’ve been able to accomplish pretty much everything I’ve put my mind to but this may be where I fail.
You haven't even been at this a month!!! And you're out of chances and ideas? Brother you are still standing at the starting line of the marathon waiting for the gun to go off! You have not even STARTED the hard work! Everyone comes here wanting to know what magic spell to chant to make the nightmare go away. There isn't one. You've got a lot of hard work ahead, and this will test your patience like nothing you've been through. Buckle yourself in!
I took the advice given and consulted with an attorney (my wife does not know this). He said it was ok to move out of the house if I had to, better to do it that way rather then forcing her to file and try to get a court order for me to move. Also got a better idea of how the divorce would proceed if amicable.
I also had a phone consult with DB coach Lani, I purchased 3. Most of time was spent with me getting her up to speed. She thinks my wife is potentially depressed, having a minor MLC, peri-minipausual or some combination of all 3. There is also a minor emotional affair blossoming with someone in her work industry that isn't helping. Lani's advice is to stay in the house if at all possible and give her space while treating her like an appreciated houseguest. That's pretty much what I've been doing. I plan to have another consult next week.
Wife and I had an interesting conversation last night as she was going to bed. She asked if "we were still friends". She said that she knows I'm angry and she's worried that I'm going to file some sort of papers to undermine the divorce and/or custody. I wanted to scream at her "you are the one that wants a divorce, WTF would I file and get the ball rolling" but I remained calm and validated. I admitted that I am angry but that is overshadowed by the hurt and sadness that she has given up on our marriage. I told her that I need to work on myself and improve. She said that she's noticed how I've stepped up as a father and that is what she always wanted. She also said that I'm a great guy with so much to offer and I will be able to make someone else very happy. There was a little more to the conversation but I think those are the important points. Very hard to remember everything as I've slept so poorly since BD 2.5 weeks ago and I'm exausted.
So no real progress, we'll see how the weekend goes. I expect we will end up doing seperate activites this weekend with our daughter and she will bring up me moving out again. If I end up moving out I suspect I'll have to go full up LRT but hope to get some more insight from my DB coach if/when it comes to that.
You are very smart for getting legal advice. What would not be smart of you to do is move out. If she is not happy then she should move out.
No mentioned no real progress. What kind of progress are you expecting so early in the process?
The reason for me moving out is she wants our daughter to stay with her and in the house so there is less change for her. I agree this is probably better for our daughter, but I also think that regardless of how we explain it I will look like the bad guy as daddy is leaving.
I'm not expecting any progress but still trying to be hopeful!
Whats best for the daughter is having both parents in the same home. Whats best is you not moving and staying put.
Yes I am moving. But my MR is over. D was finalized. So my last move is me moving out. Kids 50 50.
You are very early in your sitch. You need to set the pace. If smyour W wants out she can leave. If she wants no change for your D, she can stay or leave D with you.
Dont move out.
M:16 T:21 H(me) 38 WW: 38 S11 D16 D19 Red Flags of A: March 2018 ILYBNILWY: August 4, 2018 Moved out of MBR: September 24, 2018 BD/Confirmation of A: October 31, 2018 D Filed: March 27, 2019
Can you guys explain what is so disadvantageous about me moving out? Part of me thinks it would be good for us to both have some space. Although she thinks I don’t do enough around the house I think she’s in for a rude awakening on her own. Also, one of my buddies was 2 weeks from his divorce being finalized when he reconciled, he said him moving out and them being apart made them realize what they had. Sample of 1 I know.
