ovr is dead on here. Consider that every word you say takes you further away from your goal. There may come a day when a long deep discussion is called for. Now is not it.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
ovrr - "shagging" is a particularly British expression I think. Goes to show I have been here for far too long.
I don't normally engage in lengthy texts with him. But being disrespectful about me with the kids hit a nerve. I don't need him to like me. I do however, need him to at least pretend to respect me when the children are around.
There is a story MIL, SIL and I use to find funny because it describes my H perfectly. When D9 was a baby I was pushing her in her stroller and H was walking in front of me. He stopped suddenly and the stroller hit the back of his leg. He looked at me and said "urgh, can't you watch where you're going". The very next day he was pushing her in her stroller and I stopped suddenly and he said "urgh, you made me crash into you". That was 8 YEARS ago. There were other incidences over the years - not walking fast enough was a favorite. In the six months pre BD these incidents were a daily occurrence - everything I did was wrong and he would have a go at me front of the children. Every sentence started with "urgh".
I wasn't strong enough to say anything then. I was scared of him and I was desperately trying to save the marriage. Now, I see it for what it is ... systematic bullying.
So, am I still trying to save the M. Maybe. But he has a lot of work to do. But R is now not my primary focus, healing is. I cannot heal if he continues to berate me whenever it suits him. He seems to be happy to play happy families as long as things are going his way. As soon as he gets stressed, then he turns. And I will not be his whipping boy anymore.
FS, I’m having a “down on myself” moment. For the sake of learning what makes a good H, could you please comment on the distinction between bullying vs. just being kind of a cranky boor? I see myself in some of those behaviors you described. Or is it only different because I am aware and willing to change? As for how to address it, why not try the terse but direct approach. Rather than saying “Please don’t talk that way to me because etc. etc.” Try “I can’t allow you to say that to me” or “I won’t listen if you use that tone of voice.” That’s all. Let him wonder why, and if he asks why (which would be pretty bold), give him that look of “You know exactly why.” Fewer words. Less is more. If he really is a bully, then he gets his sense of power from your reactions. So, as they say, let your “no” be your “no” and stick to it. Don’t give him the satisfaction of having put you into a spin.
H: 35 W: 33 M: 11 T: 13
4/10/18: I discovered A and confronted ("BD1") 6/23/18: I moved out 8/31/18: MC ends ("BD2")
So, am I still trying to save the M. Maybe. But he has a lot of work to do. But R is now not my primary focus, healing is. I cannot heal if he continues to berate me whenever it suits him. He seems to be happy to play happy families as long as things are going his way. As soon as he gets stressed, then he turns. And I will not be his whipping boy anymore.
I think this is excellent insight. Even though most of us here want do not want a divorce, we have to heal and become whole, healthy individuals before we can become good partners - to anyone, be it our spouses in R or with someone else in the future. The same applies to our WAS, and they are the ones that don't seem to seek the tools to become healthy, happy individuals. Good for you for recognizing the destructive pattern and fighting against it!
I’m having a “down on myself” moment. For the sake of learning what makes a good H, could you please comment on the distinction between bullying vs. just being kind of a cranky boor? I see myself in some of those behaviors you described. Or is it only different because I am aware and willing to change?
I will give another example, this one happened Halloween last year (a few weeks after BD). Back then he use to spend most of the day out. He had been to the gym (4 hours) then picked the girls up. His mum was helping get the kids ready, I was in the living room with his step dad. I hear "FS what did you do with my gym bag" in a loud accusatory tone. I say "Nothing - I haven't touched it". I then get five sentences one after the other "You must have moved it", "you're the only one that would have moved it", "urgh, why can't you just leave things alone", "What have you done with it". When he'd finished, all I could say (in a defeatist tone) was "I haven't done anything with it". He then starts to run up the stairs and runs into our au pair and says in a friendly tone "[au pair], you haven't seen my gym bag have you". She says "Nah" and carries on walking down. He disappears for a while - turns out he had moved it to the bedroom. No apology, no recognition.
So, what makes that bullying vs cranky bastard
1. He accused rather than asked (notice he "accused" me and "asked" our au pair) 2. He wasn't really listening to my response 3. He kept going even though I had already responded (this was a big one - he wouldn't just say you've done something, he would go on and on and on) 4. He didn't apologize when he realized that he was mistaken 5. He wasn't afraid to do it in front of other people
On that same night I got "I told you not to stick things to the wall", "why haven't the children eaten yet", "you didn't buy enough sweets" and a host of other things I had done wrong. He is not that way with other people. Only me.
There is a difference between being cranky and being a bully. Being cranky is OK - we all have those days, but it isn't directed at one person, and it is balanced with nice things as well (I love that you did this or thanks for doing that or you look lovely today). Being a bully is systematic, it's ongoing and it's directed at someone who you want to feel bad about themselves.
I never called H up on it. I should have before it became systematic. He knew towards the end - I think he was aware he behaved like this, but couldn't help it. Some of resentment was even perhaps towards himself for being such a [censored] but, as the role of our internal narrative is to protect us this became ... "it's her fault I behave like this", and "it is too late for us to change". Self perpetuating.
That you are aware that this is how you sometimes behaves is a good thing. Forgive yourself (the past is in the past) and know that you are capable of change.
Originally Posted by burned
As for how to address it, why not try the terse but direct approach. Rather than saying “Please don’t talk that way to me because etc. etc.” Try “I can’t allow you to say that to me” or “I won’t listen if you use that tone of voice.” That’s all. Let him wonder why, and if he asks why (which would be pretty bold), give him that look of “You know exactly why.” Fewer words. Less is more.
When he is like this now it is not really 'talking'. It is more subtle now. Words muttered under his breath "Urgh - do I have to do everything myself", or orders barked "Make sure YOU take the bins out today" or hidden accusations "I can't find anything in this house anymore". He doesn't really need me to listen or respond and saying anything makes me sound sarcastic, argumentative or defensive.
Originally Posted by burned
If he really is a bully, then he gets his sense of power from your reactions. So, as they say, let your “no” be your “no” and stick to it. Don’t give him the satisfaction of having put you into a spin.
I think it was Davide who said it is easier for him to be true to himself if he does not see his W. I believe this same. I become the silent thing in the corner. I haven't got the option to not see him. The most I can do is keep up a friendly face and ignore the comments. I am trying to learn non combative techniques for dealing with other peoples negativity (stepping away, breathing slowly, visualisation). I will not however, allow him to teach my children to disrespect me. This is where I draw the line.
Grace - when we first come here we are all so desperate to save our M. The magic bullet so to speak. But, as time passes, and we become stronger we realize that saving ourselves is far more important. It truly is the gift of time.
I still want to R. I still love him unconditionally. I will love him for the rest of my life. But unconditional love does not mean that I will be with him without conditions. If he is unwilling to work on a health relationship with me, then I will love him unconditionally from a distance.
Not much opportunity for GAL today. Busy day at work and then had to leave early to do school pick ups. Yesterday I went to drinks at lunch with some friends and a quick drink after work with friends before heading home for 7:30. LOL it sounds like I do nothing but drink. It is definitely Christmas season. The gym has pretty much gone out the window but planning a dryish January so will hit it hard again then.
I am finding life much easier. I smile and laugh a lot and even go for long periods without thinking about my sitch. The not sleeping has come back but it is less about him and more about me. I am coming to terms with feeling "no longer married" and am strangely feeling attracted to people again. I am happy and am starting to flex the 'charm' muscles again. This is generic charm aimed at pretty much everyone I interact with, and not targeted charm relating to possible future R. I want to be a better person, one who engages with others and is not totally wrapped up in her sitch. I am making a conscious effort to be nicer (smiling, engaging people in conversation and showing gratitude for things they do for me) and people are responding to this in a positive way.
I have come to the realization (I know it took a while) that, although sometimes when I am with my H that we feel like we were never apart, that his temper outbursts, passive aggressive remarks and general grumpiness is unhealthy for me. He still has the power to set the temperature in the room and I still let him. I do not know what to do about this. The children like us being together as a family. We both like going to watch them play. If I withdraw even more (I have been withdrawing), he will see it is validation of his belief that I am 'emotionally detached' from my children and only give him more cause to be more resentful of me. I am playing it by ear, but the balancing act is a difficult one to maintain.
He still sends me texts and emails with [censored] emoji's. Got two today - one forwarding a note from D9's teacher telling all parents that they kids must do their homework even if they have after school activities ("Do you think D9 is one of the culprits {questioning face}", and the other about Christmas presents. Still [censored]ing hate emojis. I don't know if he wants to start a conversation, or if he is temp checking, or if he is just plain delusional. I want to say to him "we are not friends, you don't treat me like we're friends - stop sending me unnecessary emails and [censored] emojis !!!".
Instead, I responded to the one about D9s homework ("probably") and ignored the other one.
Sound like the detachment process is going well for you FS. You give me hope. RE: withdrawing from family activities... I don't think going to those things together is necessarily a bad thing unless it is interfering with your detaching and GAL. If you can do it with no expectations and set a boundary regarding the passive aggressive comments, etc... and your kids enjoy having you both there, then why not? The only concerns I have would be more future-oriented... like if one or both of you got into an R with someone else. That might be a set up for you as well as your girls. And if you do get as far as filing for D, you would probably want to minimize the togetherness for everyone's sake. Hard to say... I don't think there are hard and fast rules if you are detached and have no expectations. It is when you are not and you do have expectations that things can get icky. Anyway... those are my thoughts. Others may have a different opinion.
Grace - when we first come here we are all so desperate to save our M. The magic bullet so to speak. But, as time passes, and we become stronger we realize that saving ourselves is far more important. It truly is the gift of time.
Absolutely. Desperate to save our marriages, but as time progresses you makes changes for yourself.
Originally Posted by FlySolo
I still want to R. I still love him unconditionally. I will love him for the rest of my life. But unconditional love does not mean that I will be with him without conditions. If he is unwilling to work on a health relationship with me, then I will love him unconditionally from a distance.
I don't know that I had a chance with the short time frame for the D. I'm a stats guy. I sometimes think that if you play your cards right, you might have a 10% chance of saving the marriage before D. Then, statistics show that divorced couples remarry 10% of the time. At best, we have ~20% chance of saving our marriages. The more important thing is for it to be a catalyst to change ourselves for the better and to have those changes stick.
I have the utmost respect for you Harvey, but I too am a numbers gal - not stats per see, but analyzing the numbers to come up with a reasonable patterns. Some things to consider ...
1. Timeframe - If you go by AS timeline it could be years and years and years before they see the lighthouse 2. By the time they do come round, we are most likely done with waiting 3. There are lots of stats around S and even more about D but I don't think there is any accurate count of reconciliation . H and are a S. If he comes back what form do we fill in - there isn't one. He would just come back, right?
