Still determined, not as scared

[DnJ]

Hello DejaVu6

Wow what a rollercoaster this last month has been for you. I love your honesty and openness about your feelings in all of this.

There are some items that jumped out at me as I caught up on your thread. Detachment is one of them.

Yes, you need to detach. I do like your desire to do detach in a heathy manner with love and hope of reconciliation. However, the idea that to really detach you may need to dislike him for a period of time, in my opinion, is incorrect.

Detachment is when his actions or emotions will not influence your emotional state of being. You would be detached from him. The feelings of dislike, or even greater, hate - are as passionate as love, and not the path to detachment. All feelings good or bad will keep you attached to H.

I have wrote about detachment, letting go, hope vs expectations, addiction and withdrawl from our spouse, forgiveness, acceptance, and so on, hmmm I’ve wrote a bit. Not sure if you have read my threads or not, and I’m not promoting anything, just offering a view that worked for me.

The following link is from somewhere in the middle of my journey. It is not the only time I spoke about detachment, it was a kind of turning point though. I hope you find it helpful.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2795021#Post2795021

DnJ

[DejaVu6]

Thank you so much DnJ. I will read that many times. It was very helpful. I have started to work through your threads but it is going to take me awhile. . And btw... I’m not a young folk...lol. I believe you and I are the same age.

Have had a pretty great day today all things considered. My H came over in the a.m., had a pancake and then took D18 out in our boat to pick up his crab trap. No crab unfortunately but he and D18 got to spend some time together. Don’t know what they talked about. Not going to ask. I decided to take the dog out for a walk and they were back when I returned. H had brought me some wild mushrooms that he had picked yesterday before his visit to the hospital. He was excited to cook them for me and his mom and was downstairs at his mom’s doing that. After we had the mushrooms, he took all the kids out to see if they could find more and stopped in at a Farmer’s Market. They returned with a pumpkin pie that he had purchased for me and the kids. He then asked me if it would be okay if he went to the hospital for an hour as his pain was picking up again. He returned about 90 minutes later with his computer and to help D10 with her math. She declined help so he sat at the kitchen island working on something for his school assembly while D18 read a book and I read some of the forum posts (completely out of his view, don’t worry). It all felt so normal. My MIL had asked me earlier in the day if we wanted to go out for sushi and texted me to say she was ready to go. I told H what we were doing and he was welcome to join us if he wanted to. He thanked me and D18 and I went to get changed. When I returned he told me the blouse I was wearing looked nice on me and that “tight is always better”. It was not that tight but I appreciated the comment nonetheless. I had thought he sounded like he wanted to go but instead said he wasn’t dressed appropriately and was still feeling sick from all the drugs he has taken this weekend. He said his ear was burning (nerve pain) and is out of his meds so I gave him some of mine since I have the same pills for my migraines. Happily I have not needed them since I started taking nightly preventative meds. My headaches used to come once a month and last for three days so not having had one since for seven weeks now is like a miracle. My MIL told me later, however, that he actually was going to come but did a search and found out all the sushi restaurants were closed save for one which is apparently the one he doesn’t like. Anyway...didn’t make a huge difference to me which was a nice feeling for a change. On the ride back home, I cranked up some “break-up” songs and my SD18 and I sang them at the top of our lungs. My MIL was laughing and wanted to know if I hated written the lyrics. A Little Bit Stronger by Sarah Evans and Since You’ve Been Gone by Kelly Clarkson... best [getting over] break-up songs ever.

Tomorrow is a meeting at my kids’ school to do their IEPs. My H was originally going to go but realized that the time of the meeting is the exact time of the one block he teaches that he can’t get his student teacher to teach. To be honest, I am kind of relieved he isn’t going to be there. The parent-teacher interview that we went to a couple of weeks ago was quite unpleasant for me for some reason so I would rather he just not be there so I can just concentrate on my kids.

So a nice day following an unpleasant evening with the D conversation with my SD. I have resolved that I am not going to worry about what he says to other people and that I only need to pay attention to what he says to me. I am in no rush to make any big decisions so I will just concentrate on GAL and lessening my contact with him. It will be better for me in the long run regardless of the outcome.

So I have a question about my sitch. When I read about MLCrs on peoples threads, they all sound really crazy to me. I feel like my H is in some sort of crisis and that it started four years ago. But he has never done anything crazy like gamble excessively, buy a hot car (although he did get the boat he has always wanted which he will most likely not be able to afford to keep if we D) or have any affairs (that I know of). And he has been very nice and respectful to me the entire time. Early on, when my brain was still trying to adjust to all of this, when I was upset about things, he would hear me out, concede that I made some good points, go back to his place to “process” and often commented that it was “helpful” to talk with me as I always had things to say that he hadn’t thought of. However, that was early on and it seems to me that since I told him to go, he has been distancing himself and getting more and more used to being on his own. So for those of you who have read my sitch, do you think this is MLC? Or is this a guy who just doesn’t want to be married anymore?

[DejaVu6]

Ugh... my SD18 just came into my room. She was asking her dad stuff on the boat. I didn’t ask her to and honestly I didn’t want her to. She says she asked why had hasn’t told me he wants a divorce if he wants one and he told her “it is all about the timing”. Yeah...timing for him is when he thinks he won’t look like an a$$. The problem is... he has been an a$$ this entire time with all of his hiding and running away so he won’t be fooling anyone but himself. He doesn’t want to face any of it so the easy way out is to just D and take all of his issues to his next relationship and then the one after that.

I told my SD to stay out of it. She sounded like she was trying to tell him there is no good timing and he should just tell me. She thinks the kids will be fine. Of course, her parents have never been together just like his so neither of them have any concept of the impact of it. She is exceedingly immature about relationships... thinks of them in the same way her dad does... of course, she is 18, so it makes sense that she thinks it should be puppy dogs and rainbows until death do you part. But he is 45.

[RyanHun]

DejaVu,
“He doesn’t want to face it so the easy way out is to just D and take all of his problems to his next relationship”.

Everyone on here really needs to grasp this concept. All of us have made a lot of mistakes in our marriages that lead us here. The big difference is through all this pain and suffering we are learning, we are becoming better people and we will all one day have the amazing relationship we deserve. If our WAS decided to join us, they will be better for it. If they decide to walk the real winners are us as individuals and some lucky person down the road in life. Keep your head up high, this is all a life lesson that is going to have nothing but a positive impact on your life down the road.

[FlySolo]

When I read about MLCrs on peoples threads, they all sound really crazy to me ... so for those of you who have read my sitch, do you think this is MLC? Or is this a guy who just doesn’t want to be married anymore?

I agree, I sometimes read the threads and I wonder how people can be so cruel.

Do I think your H has MLC. I am no expert, but your sitch sounds closer to mine than most here and from everything I've read, I would say my H definitely had it and possibly still does. Before he left he showed all the tell tale signs (apart from the affair). My H, like yours, was running away as opposed to running to something, which I think helps in our sitch. He has finally admitted he has depression which I guess is a small but positive step towards him coming out of it. I suspect it is a long journey back though. Not back to me necessarily, but towards him finally seeing straight.

Undoubtedly, the thought that he no longer wants to be married has crossed your H's mind more than once in the last 4 years. It would be so much easier if he were not married. Then it would be done. It would be final. But, he hasn't filed the paperwork. So, he too fears the finality of it. Don't push. Don't look for answers.

Waiting for the right moment my a$$. There is no right moment to have that conversation and he knows it. He is making excuses to his daughter for his own lack of conviction. This is why we are told not to initiate R conversations. They are not ready. In the case, he was trying to save face in front of his daughter.

I wouldn't worry. Believe nothing they say and only half of what they do.

[DnJ]

Good Morning DV6

That sounded like such a nice day. Good food and meals - pancakes, mushrooms, pie. Pleasant and friendly conversation. I understand what you mean by so very normal and not.

You have started to read my past, so this will not be so much a shock.

My very last day with W, the same and last day all the children “had” a Mom, was completely normal, pleasant, good food, and games. Bomb drop happened right after the pie was finished from a wonderful Thanksgiving Day dinner, the bomb thrown into the middle of the dinner table, blowing up nine peoples lives at once.

In that instant she through away everything, the house, the contents, the children, herself. She became cruel and cold in a heartbeat. In that moment, that beat of my heart, mine and my children’s hearts were broken, she further crushed us in the following days.

In the three hours that followed BD, she let go of her once stable reality and grasped on to her new one. She told us about OM, her affair, her willingness to risk never seeing her kids again for her chance at happiness, the IDLY speech was delivered with a certain smugness, and she left to go live with OM - an item I believe her and OM forgot to discuss since they had to explain to his son about his new “mom” living with them the next day. Her transformation was complete.

Her dramatic exit and grand proclamation was formalized 2 months later, with “her” separation agreement. She did throw away everything - kids, house, all contents and belongings, cars, dogs, pension, support, bank accounts - she through it all away. She left with most of her clothes, a bathroom scale, and a single coffee mug from the thrift store (honest 75 cents) - she was quite adamant that our, kids and myself, lack of knowledge that this was her favourite mug was proof of how bad things are. I am still absolutely dumbfounded!

That is how it appeared from my side. I have gathered her sinking into this MLC madness took a while, not the instant we all saw. She has been uphappy for 2, 5,15 years according to her - an obvious rewriting of history and a poor estimation of the length of her suffering, her pain, her slow descent, her becoming someone else.

So I have a question about my sitch. When I read about MLCrs on peoples threads, they all sound really crazy to me. I feel like my H is in some sort of crisis and that it started four years ago. But he has never done anything crazy like gamble excessively, buy a hot car (although he did get the boat he has always wanted which he will most likely not be able to afford to keep if we D) or have any affairs (that I know of).

So for those of you who have read my sitch, do you think this is MLC? Or is this a guy who just doesn’t want to be married anymore?

My situation is a bit extreme, even for here.

So does my situation sound like MLC? Or a women who just doesn’t want to be married anymore?

It is both.

MLC is caused by a psychological pain that drives a person to some very poor behaviours in an effort to escape whatever demons are tormenting them. They are absolutely driven, they need to do this, even though they know how wrong it is, how much pain they will cause themselves and others. Their internal pressure is immense, so enormous they blow up their lives in an attempt to out run their past.

There are some hallmarks.

Confusion of the new and “better” life conflicting with the old and “better” life. A lot of this confusion is hidden from anyone, they do not understand what is happening to them, it is seemly beyond their control, they are going mad, not many hurt and emotionally unhealthy people will reach out for help when experiencing this.

Running behaviours will be exhibited and usually a living in the past or extremely different personality will take them over. They truely become a different person. I have seen and spoken with three other versions of my W. She is a 7, 14, or 18 year old - depending on what is going on. The 47 year old women has not been seen since last November, except for the phone call to S20 on the anniversary of BD and Thanksgiving Day (Canada one is October), she was talking to him during that call - according to S20. All the kids have seen and spoken to the different people inside her. I am 51 and I have not seen much else that is as strange as that. I do not blame anyone who does not, will not, or simply refuses to believe what I say. Her irrational behaviour, her changes, it borders on insanity. It is absolutely incredible.

Lots of changes in spending, friends, sleeping partners, activities, may occur. They are trying to find a cure, a “fix” to the pain. Some do not exhibit many changes, others try everything.

Some stay, some leave - boomerang to vanisher, and anywhere in between. My W is a vanisher, I have no idea what she is doing, she has no contact with me, and very very little with her children. She is one very lost soul. I have heard she is frequenting going to concerts, perhaps a reliving of something she didn’t get to do in her youth. Who can say. Even they do not understand what and why they do what they do.

They will blame everyone and everything for their problems. They really cannot handle any more pressure. Their fragile and broken emotions and mind cannot be wrong, they just can’t be. Try to compassionately remember this. In all their blamefull ramblings, deep down they know, they just can’t admit it, not even to themselves.

I will stop here.

To me it looks like you are looking for understanding, some clues as to his behaviour. I remember those days, I prayed for some validation of what was going on. It was so difficult trying to realize the unbelievable truth of all this. I so wanted validation, I understood that MLC is not clinically diagnosed, and barely even recognized. I did not know anything about this world until I was thrown into it, and most LBS do not stay around to figure things out or openly speak of what is happening.

I will offer you my opinion. The gift of a straight answer.

Do I think your H is in MLC? Yes

Do I think he wants out of the marriage? At times yes. At times no.


MLC is a terrible beast which has taken your husband. It was born within him long ago and it all about him and has nothing to do with you. Where this goes is unknown. He may leave, he may not. He will run for a while, eventually he may face his demons and battle them down or he may not. I am sorry the straight answers are exceedingly rare with MLC.

Your H is severely depressed and will see things usually in terms of absolutes , negatives, and in darker shades. Things like “You never really loved me”, “I’ve always felt insignificant around your relatives”, for example.

He will mostly follow a script of sorts, one they all seem to share.

You, dear DejaVu, need to give him time and space, exert no pressure on him, and most importantly look after yourself. You have heard it before - focus and protect you and your kids, detach, let go, and keep moving forward.

This is very possible. One can become indifferent towards the love of their life, to have no feelings to little feelings towards the person you so deeply loved. You can be compassionate and forgiving. You will realize you still love them, only more, conditionally. It is something that until you get there is completely unknowable. The saying, if you love someone set them free - is so true. It is a kindness, a gift to them.

Through all this, there is always hope.

DnJ

[DejaVu6]

Thank-you FS and DnJ. Gosh this is hard. It is such an emotional roller coaster ride. There are some days when I feel like I’ve got this and other days I just want to hide away and feel sorry for myself. Throughout this sitch, I have avoided the D word and the S word as has my H who up until my SD asked about divorce directly, had been calling it a “break”. I know what he wants...he wants me to continue to love him but be okay with being friends so that he can have a life with someone else free of guilt. That is the timing he wants. He also recently told me that he never talks to me about his feelings because he feels like he has treated me so poorly that he doesn’t have a right to. So is that grasp of reality uncommon because he is not wrong there. He has treated me abysmally when I consider how long he has been leading a “double life” all the while pretending he was more ill than he actually is. Maybe that was the crazy MLC behaviour? I mean, it is pretty crazy to live a lie that long, isn’t it?

I felt pretty low last night. Cried for the first time since day three of me finding out about his secret rental. This was the first time I had heard [of] him talk about divorce in such an absolute way. LIke he is so positive that this is the solution to his problems. All the while he has been talking about self-exploration and figuring himself out. Honestly, I don’t think that is what he is doing at all. I think he is just over there biding his time convinced that he was right all along - that it was being married to me that made him so unhappy and he is just a victim in all of this. I think maybe he just tells me those things so he doesn’t have to deal with me being angry with him. He created a whole separate life in order to avoid that.

Anyway...your responses to my post helped a lot. Thank-you so much. This week I have resolved to significantly step back from contact with him. I need some space to get my head back on straight. I will probably have to journal a lot more. Thankfully my twin sister comes home tomorrow night (she and her husband have been away for a week) so I will have her to talk to. She is ALL about helping me detach.

[FlySolo]

DejaVu - We all cry into the pillow sometimes. This journey is tough. My H slept in the room next to me last night. This is the first time we have ever been under the same roof but not in the same bed. He was watching the kids for me as I had planned to meet a girlfriend for dinner. He decided to stay the night so he could open presents with D8 this morning. He let D8 sleep in the bed with him.

I was wrapping presents in the MBR when he came in to see what 'we' had bought her. I showed him then we said our goodnights. When I got into bed I wept silently into my pillow.

DnJ - I have read most of your sitch - it is actually one of the reasons I chose to post on this website. Your never ending compassion for your W, your love of your children and the way you write continues to inspire me. I think I was attempting to say the same thing as you, but, in reading your post next to mine, I realise I have a long way to go.

[DejaVu6]

FS - I feel the same way about DnJ and am so grateful he has decided to follow my thread and advise me. But...don’t sell yourself short. I am just as grateful for you and find your advice and support invaluable. You have rescued me from some really depressing moments and I am so grateful. Thank-you both from the bottom of my heart.

More journaling...

I almost started crying again this morning but stopped myself. Hearing the D word, even though not from him directly, has hit me hard. It has made me really look at what I have been doing and I realized that I have still been pursuing him...just in a really indirect way. I’ve been too friendly...too available. I need to stop. I need to step back and get my act together. I have resolved to really step back this week. I am going to stop asking him how he is feeling. If he is in pain, he knows how to deal with it and doesn’t need my sympathy. He had it for four years and I put his needs first consistently for all of that time. It is time to start putting myself and my kids first and to stop worrying about him. He’s a big boy and he has chosen this path. He needs to walk it alone. I can’t help him and more importantly, he doesn’t want my help... he doesn’t want me. Gosh that hurts to write. I should just get a piece of paper and write it over and over until I really get it. I know that deep down he loves me but he has no access to that feeling anymore. It is just about him and his desperate attempt to find a new life so he can feel something again. I realized yesterday that all the hopeful signs these past few weeks have only been his attempt at alleviating his guilt. He has a lot of it...and shame...but he has shoved most of that down and presses on with the idea that if he can just be done with this part of his life in a way that doesn’t lead me to hate him, that guilt and shame will magically disappear. A month ago, I know he felt all of that intensely which is when he wanted to come home. But he has recovered from that brief glimpse into his psyche and is once again in full self-preservation and protection mode. I know that he will not get back in touch with those feelings for a very long time, if ever.

One thing I wonder about is the length of time this has gone on. He was “gone” for about two years but then came “back” for eight months in an effort to “make a fresh start” and “try to be happy”. As he did nothing different, sought no help and told no one that is what he was doing, that ended once the newness of the move and our improved financial situation wore off and he was left with himself again. Then he picked up where he left off and “left” again for another six months before I became aware this was even going on. So, in my world, this is still pretty fresh...two months in. But for him it has been four years so he has had all that time to convince himself it is me and our relationship that is at the root of his problems despite his brief periodic moments of insight. I guess what I struggle with is how to think of this. And maybe this is semantics but it seems to me that if we are four years in and not eight weeks, the way it feels to me, then maybe I should be way less hopeful about this ever turning around or maybe I should just give up altogether? I know I am not ready to do the latter but it has occurred to me a number of times that maybe a really smart person who is looking out for herself would do that?

[DnJ]

DV6

You are starting to see the timeframe of the past events, current events, and some of the possible future events. There are many possible futures, please do not discount any of them because they seem far off or unobtainable. An MLCer will hold adamantly to their facts and believes about their new life, right up until they don’t. Remember, they have to believe in their fantasy reality, they will expend considerable energies into maintaining their fantasy. Some will destroy everything around themselves to feed their perceptions, their reality.

You are trying to make sense of this. That is an good goal, we all need some understanding before being able to move forward and start to detach and let go. A caution, be careful trying to wrap your head around his muddled thinking, you will drive yourself crazy. He doesn’t understand his own actions, you can’t be expected to either.

I guess what I struggle with is how to think of this.

A very true statement. Every single one of us has to find their peace with this. It takes time.

And maybe this is semantics but it seems to me that if we are four years in and not eight weeks, the way it feels to me, then maybe I should be way less hopeful about this ever turning around or maybe I should just give up altogether? I know I am not ready to do the latter but it has occurred to me a number of times that maybe a really smart person who is looking out for herself would do that?

A few things more for you to consider.

Feelings are fleeting, quick to rise, quick to extinguish. Some quicker than others. Do not base decisions on how you’re feeling. Your H is doing that, and look at how well that is working out.

I bold faced the feeling part above so you can see it. All that questioning is based on feelings.

Thoughts follow feelings, and usually rather quickly. I am sure you know how angry you were recently at H and how quickly your thoughts changed towards him. Then once the feeling subsided the thoughts did as well.

One should be lead by their beliefs, their convictions. Find them, and follow them. Beliefs are less prone to change and are strong enough to weather an assault.

Make decisions when you are calm and at relative peace.

You are correct you are 8 weeks in, your H is 4 years. Yes he has an incredible jump on things, and you are scrambling to figure out what the heck is going on. Be gentle on yourself, you have lots of time. There is no need to make any decisions any time soon. That is one of the reasons it is suggested to let the MLCer do the heavy lifting of leaving, let them make the decisions, let them have the burden of that choice. It is not a trick or manipulation, you are just not in a place to know what it is you really want or need.

I know you are looking for answers, I’ve been there. You are questioning your resolve and even what is the smart thing to do, I’ve been there too.

I have had some hard earned lessons, I’ve been through the wringer, and I made it. I love life again! You will make it, no matter which way things go.

I have posted my journey, openly, vulnerably, sincerely, and honestly. My advice and suggestions follow the same belief.

You are just starting out on a path not of your choosing. Shock and denial are big initial factors. I think you are passed them; however there will be more times where the shock and denial will return, do not worry or fret - face it, it will come and it will pass.

For now focus on you and your kids.

GAL, make your days full and meaningful.

Look at you situation accurately and clearly, detachment will come, no need to rush things.

Acknowledge and feel your feelings. They will be intense, and maybe even a little scary or crazy. It is ok, they will pass. This rollercoaster has steep hills and deep valleys, however the ride is not forever, it does get smooth.

Make some choices or decisions when clear and level-headed. I am suggesting a road map of sorts. A pre-decided choice of how you would like to act and behave during this. Something you can fall back on, and use to guide you during times of deep feelings or confusion. Your core beliefs.

One last thing. Your core beliefs. They are as I said less prone to change, however they can be changed. You have been giving the gift of time, some very wise people have said that statement many times on this forum. Use this gift wisely. Do your inner healing, your inner work. If there is something about you, deep inside you are not really happy with, change it. You have the time.

Make those changes to your core, to your convictions, to your beliefs. It takes time and a choice by you to do it. Live it and make those changes permanent. You will love the results, guaranteed.

DnJ