Hoosjim's 16th. Looks like we're piecing, folks.

[hoosjim]

Hey artista! Glad you're back!

Thanks for the kind words! It was a lot of fun. Really simple, old-fashioned, but very nice.

Post was getting kinda long or i coulda added more.

Had some really important realizations this past weekend that i went into in some depth on "burned" 's thread, hopefully for his benefit, but maybe i can synopsize here: Just how valuable it is to "Be your own person" and to be fully confident and fulfilled in your own right (and with God, if you are, as am I, so disposed), and how that is so freeing in terms of how you interact with your spouse or significant other. When you are without that worry... without the walking on eggshells or worrying what you can and cant tell the other person or that they might become mad or might even leave you... it frees you up to have such an open and fulfilling relationship it is just... amazing. My W and i had so much fun this past weekend just being in each others's company, and we really did... nothing special. It was just the interaction between the two of us... two strong, confident, complete individuals contributing to an amazing relationship.

Also the joy (and excitement) that two such people in a relationship take in each others' accomplishments, even the small ones. I won second prize in a hot sauce contest and you'd of thought from the way my W treated me that i'd won the lottery. She was so excited (in more ways than one) by the whole experience. But it wasn't just the winning, it was the being there, and the excitement I showed, and her seeing me "in my element" hobnobbing and laughing and joking with the other people at the event. And it's been the same for me, hearing about her taking charge of project at work and sticking up for her girls that work under her... and getting a favorable response and how it energized her. Just... really neat.

The only thing where my W tends to "slip" a little still is in the remorse department. She still gets little spells where something will be really good with us, and then she'll get a sad look and hug me or cry a little and say "I am so, so, sorry... and I am so, so thankful that you have forgiven me and that we are together".... and for my part i guess i still have some pain when i think of the A, but it is fading, and each new success in our own relationship helps that pain recede.

Welcome back, again!!!

[sandi2]

I agree with Steve about not revealing the board to your W. I think I understand where you are coming from, but I don't think it's a good idea to show her your tool box. Both of you are still in the healing process and she will not have the same enthusiasm after reading what has been said in your threads...….and believe me, she would read every single word. I really feel it would open fresh wounds.

The only thing where my W tends to "slip" a little still is in the remorse department. She still gets little spells where something will be really good with us, and then she'll get a sad look and hug me or cry a little and say "I am so, so, sorry... and I am so, so thankful that you have forgiven me and that we are together"....

So.....what does remorse look like to you?

[hoosjim]

So.....what does remorse look like to you?

Ooops, i guess i kinda spoke confusingly, there. By "slip", i meant "slip out of the happy, "all-good" place we seem to be in right now." I have no questions whatsoever by this point about her very deep and very genuine remorse, and that she has, for now, left waywardness behind. I mean, she still very regularly has those moments where she tells me how sorry she is, and will specifically say "I hate who i was becoming, then, and i tell myself and thank God every day how lucky i am that you came back and forgave me." She knows what she did was wrong. She no longer hides anything from me (told me about OM's call to her office, actually shared the VM with me when i asked), doesn't even ask if she can "Stay after work for wine" anymore... she just doesn't have the desire to, and to all appearances doctor at work is leaving her alone as she widely advertises her rejuvenated marriage and how happy she is.

I mean, we just have so many good dynamics going on now that we never had before. Sort of the "free and easy" interaction i mentioned before, the delight we take in doing little things for each other that we never did before-- we'll give each other massages now after work (me for her feet and calves, her for my head and neck), holding hands and other "PDA"s that always would have seemed weird and/or awkward before and now just... don't. She made me a gluten free, dairy-free lasagna yesterday (I have some food intolerances so i restrict my diet when i can) that was, unbelievably, just really darned good. She sat there next to me and watched me eat it with this big smile on her face that was just... indescribable. And then gave me a big hug. Just the happiness she got out of doing something as simple as making a meal for me that i enjoyed... the same happiness i get when i know i have made her laugh or brought some joy extra to her day. It's nice.

I'm getting kinda sappy, so I'll stop.

I really do owe everyone here a big debt of gratitude. I couldn't have gotten through this without y'all. You, artista, AnotherStander, Steve... everyone really. And i would say that even if my marriage had not survived. I am really in so much of a better place, now, individually. And so is my W. And so is our marriage. It's why I so much want to find a way to "pay it forward" and give something back. (I'm just having a hard time reconciling secretly providing marriage advice on a hidden website with the newfound openness and honesty in my marriage...)

Anyway, thanks again, y'all. (And sandi I'm glad to see you're back from your hiatus, i was starting to worry you might not be okay.)

[AnotherStander]

Sorry I typed this yesterday but just noticed I never sent it:

And while someday I might share with her DBing etc, right now I still can't trust that a relapse won't occur.

DBing is for life, and not sharing DBing with her is also for life. If you share it with her then she will see everything you do as a "trick" or "technique" rather than heartfelt. For example, validation works because it sounds genuine and real (and hopefully it is). But if she thinks that you read somewhere "if she says A then validate with B, if she says C then validate with D" then every time you validate she's going to say "oh I see what he's doing there, following plays from his playbook." Knowing what I know about DB'ing, sometimes someone will say something to me and it makes ME wonder if they're DB'ing me rather than being genuine!

Sometimes, not sure about you, but for me I've questioned if I made the right choice or not. So many come here wanting to R above everything else, but what if the WS never gives up their waywardness? What if they are narcissistic? Or have other personality and emotional deficiencies? On and on. While we are a DB forum, sometimes the answer is to run away from the toxic spouse as fast as you can and do not look back.

Sometimes that's the answer even if they are not toxic. Who wants to be married to someone that doesn't love them? Our spouses all loved us unconditionally at some point and we want that back so bad. But what we fail to see in our post-BD fog is that our spouse may be unable to ever love us that way again. The path back has been shut off, the real question is can we build a path forward with that person to something that is as good or better than what we had? None of us have a crystal ball so we don't know the answer, so of course it would make you question things.

Had some really important realizations this past weekend that i went into in some depth on "burned" 's thread, hopefully for his benefit, but maybe i can synopsize here: Just how valuable it is to "Be your own person" and to be fully confident and fulfilled in your own right (and with God, if you are, as am I, so disposed), and how that is so freeing in terms of how you interact with your spouse or significant other. When you are without that worry... without the walking on eggshells or worrying what you can and cant tell the other person or that they might become mad or might even leave you... it frees you up to have such an open and fulfilling relationship it is just... amazing. My W and i had so much fun this past weekend just being in each others's company, and we really did... nothing special. It was just the interaction between the two of us... two strong, confident, complete individuals contributing to an amazing relationship.

That's fantastic, truly a healthy place to be! And well said!

The only thing where my W tends to "slip" a little still is in the remorse department. She still gets little spells where something will be really good with us, and then she'll get a sad look and hug me or cry a little and say "I am so, so, sorry... and I am so, so thankful that you have forgiven me and that we are together"

That's amazing. I remember fantasizing about such a moment with my ex! How awesome that must be! Sounds like she really is all-in.

[Manta]

I hope to be in your position one day. Congratulations man.

[hoosjim]

So, quick minor update. After literally weeks upon weeks with no hints of the doctor at her work asking my W to stay after with the "After hours" group in either large or small numbers, nor of my W indeed having any interest in any such activity, it "popped up" again today.

Let me say that i am reasonably sure that such after-work get togethers with the wine have been going on even without my W's participation because, well... because they are always going on. At least weekly and sometimes bi-weekly for at least the last three or so years. (Then again, if targeting my W was one of the primary purposes of these get-togethers, i suppose they might have tailed off with her making it clear by wearing her rings again, openly flirting with me at work, etc etc., that she was "no longer available-- but no way for me to know this for sure.) The groups range from just the three (Doctor, doctor's secretary, my W) to much larger groups, and have, on occasion, NOT involved my wife so i imagine they are still continuing, especially since Dr. is a wine connoisseur and can't drink at home because his own W is an alcoholic. I also know that at least a couple of the OR nurses have a "Thing" for this doctor (I honestly don't see the attraction, but whatever) and come by for these as well, so the "demand" likely persists.

At any rate, W calls me today as she is leaving work (As she always does these days, and she always leaves exactly at the end of her work day, and has for prolly at least the past three or four months.) We talked a little about our own family physician, who died (fairly young) under tragic circumstances this morning, and then she related that she felt bad because she "ruined Dr.___________ 's day" (meaning the doctor in her office who hosts the "wine downs") because he had not known of the death, and he had come by her desk as she was getting ready to leave and said "come have a drink with me." (My W's words.) At which point she said "I can't, I can't, I'm going to run some errands and Oh BTW it's really sad about Dr. _______________ isn't it?" And then supposedly this same doctor looked really shocked and said "Well, now you have to come have a drink with me..." but my wife demurred.

I'm not asking if I should have a problem with this. I DO have a problem with this. Particularly if, as it sounds, he was inviting her to a one on one (My W didn't say that he said "a drink with US..." which i am assuming she would have said if that was the case, knowing how i feel about one-on ones with said Doctor (which was and is one of my non-negotiables when we started the reconcilliation process.)

We were sort of into talking about the doctor who had died, and she was obviously sad and a little teary, so i didn't want to (and so i didn't) jump on her about the doctor's invitation. But i haven't forgotten.

I also worry about this a little despite my W's open commitment to me because she has resumed working out over the past month or so, and is looking GREAT. (I mean, she already looked amazing--she's 50 and can pass for early 30s-- but my W at peak fitness is like WOWZER.)

Certainly something i want to bring up in our next MC, I think. Perhaps before.

Others' thoughts?

[Twofeet]

Hoosjim, why do the nurses have a thing for this Dr.? hypergamy.

Are they having wine on premise after hours? Is this a hospital owned facility or private practice?
I only ask because if there is a policy against alcohol on campus the W might be best to stay away.

You are years ahead of me in experience as far as all this DB goes, but my 2 cents would be this. I would be in your same shoes and say this is not a recommend activity for her to participate in especially because of your shared history and rocky but currently piecing marriage. However, I don't think you want to come across as jealous or controlling. Maybe when you and her are having intimate conversations about your R you could be open and honest about how it makes you feel? You know not I don't want you doing this or I don't like this, rather I feel insecure about this for reason x, y, z. Maybe consider what you are willing to give up to have your needs met as far as this Dr sitch goes. See what her feedback is on that.

That is all I got. I am just an amateur talking to a pro.

[SteveLW]

HJ leave it for MC. Likely nothing but better to nip it in the bud.

[hoosjim]

More color. So, the invite (regardless of how doctor phrased it) was not for a "one on one" after work drink. At least a couple of other people from the OR staff (prolly at least the nurses who like the doc) were coming as was his secretary, my W's younger friend. I gleaned this from overhearing W's phoncon with doc. More on that.

Doc calls W on the way home in his car, as W and i are getting into our own car after having stopped at a store to pick something up on our way to dinner. W, who is already sitting in car next to me, initially gets up and steps out of car as she is picking up the phone, and puts it on "private" (her phone is primary bluetooth on the handsfree in our vehicle). She starts to step back, but then stops herself and stands just outside of open door where i can still hear her. Doc is upset that his colleague died suddenly (suicide apparently) and about some other overlays with the situation. W is apologetic that she "just dumped that on him", talks a little about the sitch, and about the after work get together, from which i glean that it was originally planned to be several people and not just the two of them.

OKay, so, good--- it was not a one on one invite; not so good--- not sure about her inclination to semi-privatize the conversation with doc. And.... there clearly is what i would consider a tad too much familiarity there.

So, W and i have a convo that she starts about doctor and his W. "I think things are worse with them, these days", she says. "Oh?" I say, "how so?" So, she talks about doctor preparing for his W's 50th birthday, and not being really "into it" and "not wanting to do anything really special like fly off to an exotic locale" and that she (my W) "thinks that they are kind of where we were a year and half or so ago." I sort of casually mention the possibility of her (my W) befriending and talking to doctor's W (because they have bonded in the past) but W notes the difficulty of being seen as interfering and i then note the difficulty of having to explain to docs W why doc is confiding in another woman (my W) about his own W's drinking problem. In explaining all this about "similarities to our sitch" my w tells me something to the effect of that "she doesn't even want him touching her." To which i interject (calmly, but still directly and pointedly) "Whoah, wait a minute! You two are having conversations about touch and intimacy with his spouse?" To which she responds: "Now just wait a second, he said that kind of unsolicited when i suggested he get her a spa day or massage day or something like that for her birthday and he said 'she doesn't like anyone touching her, even me.'" Okay, so, slightly less alarming but.... I just don't like the dynamic with this doctor. He's a man, and, as a man, i know exactly what most men are like... and he is definitely in a struggling, maybe even SSM, and my W is a beautiful (and friendly) woman. In his position, with a woman like my W... the new me likes to think i would not be making a play... but dang if i wouldn't be really tempted.

Twofeet's questions:

Hoosjim, why do the nurses have a thing for this Dr.? hypergamy.

Are they having wine on premise after hours? Is this a hospital owned facility or private practice?
I only ask because if there is a policy against alcohol on campus the W might be best to stay away.

Twofeet, it is a private, doctor owned practice. They even own the premises (or have a VERY long lease.) This doctor is the "senior partner" or whatever the doctor equivalent of that is. No alcohol policy to violate. The "Attraction" to the doctor is more a function of his relative youth and position-- he is chief of his surgical section at hospital and, of course, wealthy-- i don't think he is particularly physically attractive though he was a college athlete. I think he probably gives off vibes of being "available" even though he is married.

[ovrrnbw]

Hi hoosjim,

I was recommended to read your thread. So I've read everything from pt 10 til now. Stuff was crazy for a while there. You've done a lot of things well, and I say that as a person, your career, DB'ing.

Why does your W talk to him at all? Why is your W still working there? It just doesn't make sense to me. Why tempt fate? I know she needs to have positive boundaries no matter where she may work, but this...I wouldn't be comfortable with it. I don't like that she is privatizing any part of her comms with another man, much less this man. After reading a newbie's thread today, where all 3 of the OM had befriended him, the LBS, before getting with his W, I am starting to wonder if the simple "smash the OM's face" approach is not the best. This doc sounds like a real piece of work. Does he not care about his reputation? Does his W know about all his antics?