once burned...

[hoosjim]

You saw your sitch as hopeless because of what preceded it.

I see mine as hopeless because of the 6 months of damage I did post-BD.

Yes and no. If you go back and re-read my last post (or go back to my first coupla threads through about June/July of 2017), you will see that, not only was i dealt a pretty bad hand (some of which, yes, i dealt myself) with what came before BD, but also that i, in several respects, made a royal mess of things after BD. I, like you, somewhat enabled her further waywardness. Heck, i practically gave her permission at one point! Not to mention my flimsy boundary-setting, getting roaring drunk and spilling my guts and confronting her bff... on and on and on. I was far far far FAR from the decisive, alpha-hoosjim in my interactions with her the first couple of months. And, yeah, you will see (and i even indicated as much in my threads at points) that my mistakes quite arguably made the situation worse, enabled the affair, and lengthened the timeline of both my recovery and the MR's reconcilliation. You dont have a corner on the market of DB-botching, my friend!

Point is we learn from our mistakes. Life is a journey. Even though i made those mistakes, things still turned out okay for me and, as an added bonus, for my marriage. Things are never as hopeless as they seem. I don't know what the future holds for your relationship with your W... nor do you. There's only one guy that knows that. What i do know is that you have some freedom now to work on you, burned, and turn your life into something special... to make yourself a man that only a fool would leave.

Your W has given you the gift of time. Use it.

Another thing he might do is let himself into the house that he owns just as much as his WW, and take whatever the frack he feels like taking. She can complain later.

^^^^This. Definitely.

AnotherStander:

Eventually started dating and got serious 3 years ago with a beautiful young lady with tatt's, crazy hair colors and a zest for life

Briefly wondered about this a couple of times, because that opportunity was there for me as well. Hmmmm.... Oh, what? Anyway, I'm better off now, though. Just be aware, burned, when you start turning yourself around, there will be other opportunities out there. I've seen it posted on these forums frequently that often by the time the LBS gets himself turned around, in the cases where the Wayward spouse tries to "come back", the LBS no longer wants anything to do with the wayward spouse, and the LBS then becomes the "walk-away."

[burned]

Jim, thanks. I JUST edited my last post right before you posted. Could use some VERY specific ideas about how you said to change my approach wrt WW. I think it was something you said yesterday in the big big post.

Edit: haven't had time to get past July 2017 in your threads but I'm looking forward to it, possibly tomorrow.

[hoosjim]

Could use some VERY specific ideas about how you said to change my approach wrt WW. I think it was something you said yesterday in the big big post.

There's really nothing i can add that others haven't already said here in that regard... and they are all giving you good advice. I mean, i could try to micromanage my post and run down the "50 top situations you're likely to find yourself in with WW and how to respond" but, really, you need to find your own way. It is largely about attitude: Confidence and Decisiveness. Google dominant male in marital relationships (not the BDSM stuff, but the alpha male stuff, it is pure gold.) Standing up for yourself. Not tolerating and disrespect. Being firm, but calm and in control at all times (The alpha male doesn't shout... he doesn't have to. Using, for instance, profanity, but doing so only sparingly and in a completely level and calm tone of voice can be very powerful). Being planful and following through with your plans. Being honorable and strong and kind.

None of this stuff is meant to be anything you do to "front" or fake it... although there is some truth to the "fake it till you make it" sentiment for stuff that doesn't come naturally to your personality type... it's a lifestyle choice, and a habit you can choose to form.

It's also about having a LIFE (thus, the GAL stuff) and being, at the same time, somewhat mysterious and unobtainable (the pursuit and distance dynamic and the "going dark" paradigm.

Also, YOU set the tone for your interactions and YOU decide when to interact with her (ideally, for the time being, only when absolutely necessary.)

Talk LESS, do MORE. I am a lawyer and also a verbal person by nature, so i have a tendency to want to talk things to death... it's a proclivity i have managed to dial back with great effect in many areas of my life--God gave us one mouth and two ears for a reason. At any rate, be a man of ACTION rather than WORDS. If you are going to do something, just do it... no need in many cases to say "I am going to do this" before hand.

Just think about every strong masculine figure you've ever seen in a movie-- John Wayne is a good archetype. That type of man is in dwindling supply in our society these days, and it's a shame (and i think most women would agree, even if some won't say it out loud.)

Your idea of going by YOUR house when she's not there and retrieving what you need (without advance warning or leaving a note afterwards) is perfect.

[burned]

OK. Thank you. Will review my threads and take notes.

WRT "permission," to add some color to my sitch. I just got a very bad insight:

7/7/18 (our anniversary): WW sends a furious text and says "f you" for the first and maybe only time. I respond something along the lines of, "OK, then, I guess I have to let you go" but in a very clingy/dependent way. She later admits that she contacted OM that day, and I tracked her to his hotel the next day.

8/31/18: WW says she wants D (during MC session). Lots of texts that night, one of which was me saying, "Well I guess we have to think about dating other people. I'd like to date you if possible." WW says, "What if that's not possible?"

I just realized what she meant.

This entire time she's been leaving me FOR HIM. Of course she denied it. But I fell for all the lies.

Now I really AM fed up.

[burned]

He has just so completely let his WW (apparently) run completely wild while remaining full committed to her and available to her pretty much whenever she wants that I don't know if he will ever "get her back."

7/17/17. What ended up happening with those two? He sounds like me.

[hoosjim]

7/17/17. What ended up happening with those two? He sounds like me.

Their divorce was finalized last month. She is living in FL with her AP, a mutual friend of both of ours (fraternity brother from college) and MY best friends former "best friend". She has primary custody of the children and they are still, technically, business partners (which he tells me he has little to no choice in because the company is basically just the two of them and if they dissolve it they have no livelihood.

You think you were bad at DB-ing... Hah! You got nothing on him.

I love him like a brother, and he was there for me when i literally had NO other friends... and we leaned on each other and he helped me get back on my feet and to rediscover and strengthen my faith but, wow... his WW completely ran roughshod over him.

His sitch and my sitch had a lot of similarities, not the least of which was that our respective wives had been best friends since long before we had met them. Both situations grounded in a degree of "checking out" and neglect by the husbands, in a situation where the respective wives were both somewhat "high sex drive" women.

There were differences, too... Not to judge, but his W did not come from nearly as grounded and "non-wayward" background as did my W. My W was always the "Good girl" in her family, the responsible "oldest child", the one who was always expected to be good and do the right thing. Very devout christian. His W, by contrast, came from a broken home, both mothers (birth and step) with some degree of substance abuse, was molested by one of her step brothers, and had had not one but two previous affairs while married to my friend.

At any rate, my friend had become "born again" in the early stages of what he thought was reconciliation with his W after her own BD. He took it very seriously and, i mean, took "turn the other cheek" to an extreme. Thought he had no right to make any claims on his W, said she needed to "Go find herself" even if that included other relationships, even sex... that he knew he could "take her back no matter what". she constantly told him she had no more feelings for him and couldnt see herself having such feelings. Engaged in Loooooong relationship talks with her, about which she would subsequently mock him on FB. He let her remain in the house as an "in-house separation", the whole thing very structured according to her rules. The business at that point was his family's (this before his dad retired) but he didn't say anything to them and let her remain embedded as a principle.) Ultimately when they split he let her have whatever she wanted. Didn't say a peep about the adultery (which he could absolutely prove) even though that is a bar to spousal support in our state. Wouldn't hear a bad word about her: "My loyalty is to 1) God, 2) My W, 3) My kids, in that order, so did no good to tell him anything or suggest he needed to earn her "respect." Pretty sure she made a pass at me and i told him so but he was like "Im sure you were misinterpreting." Found out he was NOT keeping our convos about my situation strictly confidential, which meant things were getting back to my W through his W... and it was clear she was pumping him for info and lying back to him, so he was constantly telling me "there's no way your W is having an affair with OM" and "even if she were, you need to be more loving and less controlling... she needs to find herself." Etc Etc. Even when he found out about the affair with our mutual friend (which was either affair number 3 or number 4, depending on WON you consider his W's earlier dalliance with our mutual friend the previous fall to be the same affair) he was like "no, i still love her, and i still want to try to patch things up with ___________ (our mutual friend) and i think things are all going to turn out all right. That weekend, one of our other friends who was in town for our reunion, and who himself had been the victim of a cheating w, got drunk and went completely off on him, calling him a <vulgar term for part of the female anatomy>, saying he "disgusted" him, etc. Wouldn't let up, so my friend called his W... to come pick him up and take him home an hour away. She came and was confronted by our angry drunk friend. It was very ugly. And sad. Several friendships were ended or severely damaged that weekend. Even after that for a short while he continued to defend her. It was only when she finally decided the time was right for them to physiclaly separate and the divorce proceedings started that he started waking up and realizing how he had been played. But by then it was too late... and at any rate he had seen what she was really like and wanted nothing further to do with her.

In other words, he demanded and expected NO degree of respect, accountability, or cooperation from her. At any point. Set no boundaries to protect himself. Fully cooperated with her when she wanted to present a "united front" to their three kids that this was a "mutual decision" although he never cheated and definitely wanted to reconcile. Left it "All in God's hands"... which is fine but... ya gotta realize (and this is something that my recent faith journey reinforced with me) that quite often there is something or several somethings that God expects YOU to do.

Postscript, somewhat interesting, is that he is now together with our mutual friend's now-ex-wife. It was a trade up for both of them, lol.

[neffer]

Of course I will say something optimistic: live your life. Set you free. You deserve better B.
You have the tools to grow into amoafwl. If your W doesn’t see that, well...it’s her loss.

So, expect nothing, stop mind reading, detach and go GAL.

Use the tools B!

(((Hugs)))

[hoosjim]

One thought i would add to the above is that he did, to his credit, manage to "detach". Boy, did he detach. But IMHO to an extreme degree that sacrificed his self-respect and any hope he had of regaining the respect of his W.

Now, he is happy and content, or at least so he says, so... I guess things worked out for him. But he very, very definitively was of the stance through most of his ordeal that he wanted to reconcile with his W, and he played it, iMHO, absolutely the wrong way given that and it might have cost him. And maybe it was the better outcome... his W had proven to be untrustworthy twice (three times?) before. I mean, how many times do you let a dog bite you before you put it down?

And i don't think his W is, or at least was, at heart, like the wicked witch of the west or anything... We used to have a lot of fun all four of us hanging out and she was a bright, witty, outgoing, and fun person to be around. But she obviously went very, very wayward... and my friend did not want to hear any of the wisdom i brought back from these boards about WWs and how to deal with them.

[hoosjim]

I'm going to add this because I think it is very important and instructive for your purposes and at this stage of your journey:

IMO there are two important lessons to be learned from my friend's sitch, and the both validate the DB philosophy and the advice you will read on these forums:

1) Appeasing a WW is a practically gauranteed route to NOT reconciling with your spouse. Everything you read here, particularly from Sandi and artista, about "pursuit and distance" and about the rebelliousness of the WW and the importance of respect for the husband by the wife in that equation is absolutely spot on.

2) GAL is quite probably the most important element of DBing. Despite my friend's mishandling of his interactions with his WW, he did, to his credit, GAL like crazy. You wouldn't even recognize the pre and post DB dudes if you stood rm next to each other. Dude found religion, and for real., Not just lip service. It shows in everything he does and how he interacts with everyone. He was a pretty unempathetic person previously, now he is intensely interested in all around him, very compassionate and giving of his time. Couldn't ask for a better friend whereas previously somewhat cold and self centered unless you knew him well. Donates alot of time now to charitable causes. Sold his car got a motorcycle and several tattoos. Took 2 months off work last year to follow Tom Petty around on tour. Left the city and moved to a small town. And found joy. Dude is just completely, totally, at peace. Did he suffer pain? Of course, and he readily admits that his sitch, especially with three young children,bis difficult at times, but he is at peace... And he maintained throughout the course of his ordeal that he was detached enough to know he would be okay with or without his wife, even as his preferred outcome was reconciliation. And he was okay.

So, you coul rightly say that, overall, the DB philosophy was a big success for him
.. in that he is happy and fulfilled, now, in his new life, and in fact has a much better life than ever before.

He just didn't manage to reconcile his marriage.

[burned]

Jim, thanks. I can see that your friend's sitch had a lot less going for it than mine, if it's possible to believe.

I'm curious what you mean about how your friend detached in a way that cost him his self-respect and his W's respect. I'm right at that point now and I want to do the best I can. Will I maybe be able to turn it around? Not sure. Is there a bad way to detach? And would it include things like what I did today, when I passively-aggressively left a box of stuff on the porch that she had at one time caringly packed for me as I showed myself the door?

More background. My W is the oldest daughter out of 7 siblings, working class Catholic family, not much money growing up. A major contributor to this saga, I think, has been her need to "find herself" and "figure out what I want, not what other people want from me" as she was essentially the "2nd mother" helping to raise her 4 younger siblings. Unlike your W, my WW isn't overtly religious but was raised Catholic, confirmed, etc. So she had a traditional religious upbringing but with that sort of secular Northeastern flavor.

I think if you could imagine your W as the WW and your friend as the LBH, you'd get a sense of my sitch. Maybe I'm being too hard on myself. But this last week, as I've reevaluated just about everything that has happened (and believe me, there are a lot of eye-openers), I'm realizing just how much damage I've done. Non-stop. For 6 months.

I did just about everything your friend did until just very recently. The "take her back no matter what," the turning the other cheek, "she needs to find herself," etc. That's me. Sure, my W didn't react quite the way his W did with all the public humiliation, but I'd be surprised if it isn't how she feels. I need 2 hands to count the number of times I made weak boundary threats and then didn't follow through. Several times I said "Hey we can all be friends" or "I forgive you no matter what" or "You're what matters, not your actions" blah blah blah. I even remember her asking me once, around the time she wanted S, "Why would you want to be with someone who is so ambivalent?" Like, directly challenging me. My response? "Because it's YOU." NGS. Until about a month ago I wouldn't tolerate anyone telling me that R wasn't the #1 goal and that my W was "trying her best." Things are a bit different now.

I'm seeing her now in a completely different light, a much darker light. I'll accept responsibility for debasing myself. But I'm getting a LOT better at detaching, and FAST, now that I see the evil. It's probably too late for any kind of turnaround (OK, maybe it's never too late), but somehow that doesn't bother me as much. At least not today. Who knows what tomorrow will bring.

I'm giving up hope that anything I do will change anything in W's mind. She's just so cold and distant now. Maybe because she's busy with school. Maybe because the A picked back up, if it did. Doesn't matter. I'm actually starting to feel really good about how my changes will affect ME. I do feel I've regained some self-respect in the past week. It's unfortunate that I might not be able to use it to my advantage in terms of R. But it suits me just fine.

Dinner with close friends tonight. They were "our" friends but for now they are "my" friends and they've been telling me for months that I should stand up for myself because I'm really a decent guy and I don't deserve to be treated so badly. Tonight they said I look good because I look happier. That felt good to hear.

/ramble