Thanks for answering the questions! One thing I want you to notice is that all six of these questions were asking about your wife's perspective, but you answered at least half of them talking about you.
That's important because its very easy to confuse what your wife felt/wanted long term over the course of your marriage with how she's feeling now, today, and what she wants now/today. Those two things are *very* different.
You need to understand and be mindful of her *current* state of mind in order to make progress. Reacting to her state of mind six months ago isn't going to give you the results you want.
Make sense?
In that light, I'd like you to take a second shot at these, but let's start here: there are different models for "basic emotions".
0) Which of these basic emotions do you think W is feeling about your relationship right now? Joy, sadness, anger, fear, trust, distrust, surprise, anticipation
1) "Why do you think your wife is presenting to you that things are so final?"
I agree that part of her "finality" is your read on the situation, but she's also doing it for a reason. All WAS' do this. They use definitive language like they are "done" and also tend to rewrite history as "always bad". *Why* do you think they do that when interacting with the LBS?
It would certainly be kinder to treat you more gently, so why do you think she's being harsh in her language?
2) When your W thinks about you, what do you think she wants?
You answered what you think your wife wanted from you historically. This is *super* important, because I don't think that's what she wants today. The wording here is also important, I'm not asking what she wants you to do, I'm asking "when she thinks of you *today*, what do you think she wants?"
3) Why does she want that?
(Take another shot at this after rethinking what W wants today when she thinks about you)
4) How does your behavior, and how you react to her, either support what she wants or deny her of what she wants?
(Take another shot at this based on what she wants today versus historically)
5) If you are sad around your wife, how do you think that makes her feel?
(Even if you don't feel you are acting sad around your wife, please answer)
Originally Posted By: ballast
With us I have no abuse, addiction, or infidelity on my part and honestly no real reason to suspect on her either. Married couple enjoying the dual income no kids life, then have a daughter and wife struggles with the change in her identity. We don't go out like we use to, care of baby becomes priority, we're both tired after work and baby, sex wanes...As I can look on here and see so many examples of WW having A's so to can I go to a women's blog and see hundreds of ladies saying post-baby we're roommates.
Yes young kids put an enormous strain on a relationship, there's no question about that. When relationships are under strain, the bad things become worse and the good things become more important.
When you talk about abuse, addiction and infidelity that looks to me like a desperate search for understanding of why this happened to you, because on the face of it, you did nothing to deserve it.
Let me save you the suspense, you definitely didn't do anything to deserve this treatment.
As humans, we like to believe in cause and effect. When we press the lever we get a pellet, when we touch a hot stove we get a burn.
When we get a burn and didn't touch the hot stove, well that's scary! How can we protect ourselves against getting burned in the future if we can't understand what we did to get burned this time?
That's a totally destabilizing feeling.
At some point, you need to surrender to that fact that this happened and that you're not going to be able to put your finger on what exactly you did to deserve it.
Although divorce can be very hard on kids, one positive message that can come through it all is that sometimes bad things happen to good people, but despite bad things happening you can still have a wonderful life.
That's not such a bad thing to take away.
Acc
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Accuray...I will say I struggled to answer these...
0) Sadness, anger, hopelessness
1) She is in pain, protect the decision she already made, doesn't want me to pursue, feels the situation is hopeless...I will take what I think might be your bait on this...there's an OM?
2) Empathy, understanding, confidence, her freedom
3) She does not feel as though I heard her, I think she wants to see positive changes in me, I know being apart from me has allowed her to breathe again as she says.
4) So I have detached, GAL'd, stopped pursuit. I have repeatedly in the past during our two talks on pursuit told her that I respect her decision.
5) If I was acting sad around my wife, then I would think that makes her feel guilty, perhaps angry, disrespected by me, perhaps that I was controlling her.
Yes you are right I need to surrender to the fact of the matter that this happened.
From your last comments about divorce my 'fatalistic' side infers you believe this is hopeless to recover.
Accuray has a lot of good information for you here Ballast. One thing I want to remind you because you seem to be still looking to the past so much. The past is set in stone. You cannot change it no matter how much time and energy you put into it. Trust me on this!
But you can resolve to be better from this point forward. You can resolve to loving detachment (NOTE THIS IS NOT GOING DARK!), 180ing, GAL, and being the best you that you can be.
When my sitch was fresh I did a ton of research. I read and watched all of MWD's online stuff. I read and watched things from a lot of different experts. I bought a lot of advice books online for saving your marriage. They all had differences, some were diametrically opposed to MWD's approaches, some were similar with a different spin, some were the same in some aspects and different in others.
But one things all, and I mean ALL of these experts agreed on was this: Become the best you that you can possibly be, and then show that best you to your spouse at every opportunity you have!!
For some of us that opportunity is frequent because we are still living together, for some it was less frequent because they are S, for some it is even less frequent because the WAS has gone dark, or there is a RO, or some other thing. The point isn't to create opportunities, it is to use the opportunities you do have to the best of your ability!!
Ballast, you can turn your sitch around but it starts with you and your thinking. Drop the pity party. Drop the hopeless thinking. Drop the pessimism. Trust me, no matter how much you try to hide it your W can see it lurking underneath with every interaction.
As Accuray said, you need to change your thinking if you want to have any chance of R in the future.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Accuray/Steve, I definitely appreciate the information and what I really need is the stiff kick in the backside. As I say I have not done anything stupid with regards to pursuit, beyond two talks in the first week or so and then let it be. I feel good about that, additionally we are friendly and no line of communication is closed.
As I say it took me til now to feel like I've stablized from the BD AND thankfully I feel like I been following the rules for some weeks now. Also from day one I really took to GAL, working on 180 and working on the loving detachment.
My biggest enemy to date has been my own mind and it's thoughts. Going through the past, instead of acceptance and confidence in positive change for the future.
Again a big backside kick is what I needed and need. I so much appreciate everyone's comments.
ballast, the "My biggest enemy to date has been my own mind and it's thoughts." is exactly what Accuray and I mean. Your wife can see through you like a sieve. You can do everything right on the outside, but she will detect that it isn't in keeping with what you are thinking on the inside. And this will mean she questions the outward actions as being for effect and therefore temporary. The exact opposite of what you want to convey.
Continue to work on your attitude, thoughts and actions when you are not around your wife! It is hard. It takes work. But trust me, I don't know how they know but they do know if you are only putting on a good show.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
From your last comments about divorce my 'fatalistic' side infers you believe this is hopeless to recover.
I don't believe that at all. My point is that if this should end in divorce, that's not a total failure, that's just something that happened, and you move on from it and take the lessons learned. I do believe you can recover, particularly if you're doing a good job of not pursuing, giving space, and not being sad around her as you say you are.
You are correct that your W is sad and angry. She's angry at you, and she's angry at herself.
People can only be angry at themselves for so long, and then they need to stop. What tends to happen at that point is that they look to displace blame. If someone stole money from you, initially they might be mad at themselves for doing it, but eventually they'll usually convince themselves that it was someone else's fault that they were in that position. Its just human nature.
As a WAS, they will often displace blame on the LBS because they need to give themselves some relief, so eventually they are angry at you for what you did, and then they are angry at you again for what they did.
If they are in that state of mind, can you see why pursuing them or having relationship talks is just totally hopeless?
Can you see why if you address their past complaints *now* it just makes them angrier at you?
The three biggest things she's dealing with right now are fear and uncertainty about the future, guilt for what she's doing to you and your daughter, and anger and resentment over your role in pushing her to this point.
Everything you do right now is going to make her either more resentful, or less resentful.
If you increase her guilt, by blaming, shaming, or making her responsible for your emotional state, she's going to resent you more.
If you pursue her, argue with her, or try to convince her to work with you on the marriage, she's going to resent you for not letting her go and not giving her the space she wants.
If you immediately address all her historic complaints, she's going to resent the fact that you didn't do it sooner, and things had to get this bad for you to take action.
If you give her space, its going to make her less resentful.
If you live your own life, and are happy and joyful for your own sake, its going to make her less resentful.
If you are respectful in your communications with her, but not intimate, its going to make her less resentful.
*Eventually* she will burn through that big pile of resentment.
*Eventually* she will process her anger at you and it will dissipate.
UNTIL she goes through both of those processes, she will not see you as anything other than she believes you to be based on her prior training.
If she thinks you wear blue every day, and you start wearing red, she's still going to think of you as the guy that wears blue, because she literally can't see you right now.
WHILE she is processing her anger and resentment, YOU work on your changes. You do it slowly and methodically *for you*.
If you're a 2 today, you don't focus on being a 10, you focus on being a 3. Then you focus on being a 4. You be kind to yourself.
While her anger and resentment are burning down, your changes are building up.
When eventually she's had enough time and space that she can SEE YOU again, she'll be surprised by what she sees, and she'll question for the first time the assumptions she has held about you.
THAT is the beginning of your opportunity to turn things around, but you CANNOT control how long it will take her to process her anger and resentment, and you CANNOT accelerate it.
Buckle your seatbelt, its a marathon and you have to be patient and surrender to the fact that this relationship is NOT something you can control right now.
That's an uncomfortable feeling, but the sooner you own that fact, the better you'll do.
Acc
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
*Eventually* she will burn through that big pile of resentment.
*Eventually* she will process her anger at you and it will dissipate.
Ballast, you need to remember this because it will happen on its own timeline, not on yours! Go read ItHurts' thread about his WAW coming back 4 years AFTER D! These things usually take time, and the amount of time they take is not known, nor is it controllable. Focus on the one thing you can control: YOU
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
She has told me that she feels horrible even having left and I don't think she sleeps much. If a person were confident in their mind/decision, I don't think that would be their way. It is not for me to decipher I know, just what I have been told.
I'm happy that I have not blamed/shamed her although yes twice I have tried to convince her. That was before I met you fine folks.
I'm definitely already conducting the GAL, 180, detach...I just need to get my mind on the same positive track as my actions.
I'm well aware of the pursuit/distance and have taken heed of that. It is new to me to go the other way, but I understand the reason behind it esp as I know that continuing to pursue is the definition of insanity.
Besides that all this sad, in the past behavior thinking is exactly what does not attract her. Really appreciate you guys calling me out where I needed calling out on.
"She has told me that she feels horrible even having left and I don't think she sleeps much. If a person were confident in their mind/decision, I don't think that would be their way. It is not for me to decipher I know, just what I have been told."
Believe nothing she says and only half of what she does. I know you want to hold on to any nugget that seems to have her leanign your way, but seriously, WWs have no limits to their capacity to manipulate and lie. They will tell you what you want to hear to end the conversation or any other number of motivations. You have to treat your W right now like a stranger: no trust in anything they say or do. It is hard because again this requires putting the past aside, but no matter how truthful and trustworthy she was in the past, she is not that person anymore.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
