Can I really do this?

[Dtrmned]

Her and I have VASTLY different viewpoints on how this will work. She believes I should foot the fill for the rest of my life for almost any and all expenses for her lifestyle. We have lived well, I know there will be responsibilities on my part and I am fully willing to take the "hit" on what I need to. I really don't need much, my vehicle is a lease, after the financial crisis tried to keep my payment as low as possible so it is only 285/mo. My issue is the main parts of what she is thinking and the reality of it coming to her. I am very sad knowing that I will miss parts of my children's lives, this is a reality should it come to the full D.

Wife also believes that even after we D that if I make it back to where we were, that she is entitled to that as well. I see it as we were in this together, and if you decide to leave, that ends your benefit (pending what the agreement would end up looking like) and if I move on, move up, whatever that she is not a part of that.

Am I just wrong in that viewpoint or is she?
I'm in it and always have been for the long term. If she's all in, I'm good. If she's out, she's out. Kind of how a marriage works I think. Never perfect, but knowing each other is there is part of the package.

If our D was final tomorrow, I feel it would take a judge, a bunch of attorneys being paid a bunch of money and a lot of animosity (unfortunately). I mentioned that attorneys cost a ton (she now knows this based on her paying one to file and withdraw so I believe that is a good thing as the realization as to how much it might really cost her is in front of her). I also mentioned that I would rather make the agreement worthwhile, not pay attorneys and spread the money out to help her transition to her new life instead of fighting about it. She felt insulted by that. I thought it was a very good gesture on my part. Rather use the money for "us" than give it to an attorney and save the animosity right? Anyway, presently the math just doesn't work. I wish it could to get her out and away from the situation for just a little while so she could ponder, contemplate and do what is right for her.

I am not going to push either way unless I see anything to alarm me financially. I am giving her her time and space. I am not bothering her about her whereabouts (she doesn't go anywhere really). She is totally free to come and go as she pleases throughout the day while I am at work and the kids are at school. She has zero restrictions other than her health as to what she can/can't do. We were supposed to sit down and discuss boundaries early this week along with the financial stuff as this is what she wanted to do. But as of today, this has not happened.

Again, very difficult, but letting her have her space. Focusing on me and the kids, and still making sure that she is ok and if there is anything I can do for her.

Thanks again!

[Dtrmned]

*She is not the girl you married. She no longer feels the same and won't act the same.
*No matter what her values and spiritual beliefs have been in the past, and regardless of the high standard of morals she held, they have temporarily vanished. For how, nobody knows.
*She does not want to be fixed. Nobody can fix her, especially you.
*She is in complete rebellion, and will defy you when you make demands, threats or give ultimatums.
*Her heart has turned cold and selfish. All she thinks about is what makes her feel good at the moment.
*You cannot change her mind, influence, convince, or sway her by talk.
*Her brain has lost all capacity to use logic. Therefore, you cannot reason with her.
*She is addicted to the high she gets from the A. She will do most anything to get her "fix" again.
*She cannot be trusted as long as she is wayward, and until she goes through the complete withdrawal stage from OM/A.
*She will cake eat whenever it suits her......if you allow it.
*She wants the best part of the M and the A. She gets the H for security and OM for her emotional needs.
*She will bait her H, and test him.
*She will give him just enough crumbs to keep him hanging on and attached.
*She keeps the M/H as her plan B, in case A/OM doesn't work out.
*She will be interested in H if he detaches, acts as if he is busy, happy, moving on without her, and won't give her the details when she starts asking.
*Pursuit from her H only pushes her further away.
*She is living in a fantasy world. She wants the dream to continue.
*She will blame her H for every thing wrong in her life. His apology does not erase her resentment. She will totally rewrite their marital history. She holds on to her anger toward him b/c it fuels her negative view of the M and justifies her present actions.
* Her common sense is gone and she only operates from her emotions.
*She is willing to risk everything and throw everything away for her addiction when the A is at its thickest.
*She sees her H as the enemy.
*She has to suffer some type of loss (due to her decisions) in order to shake her from her fantasy fog.
* She is on a roller coaster and will not act the same every single day. Her emotions will be up, down, and all over the place....but never on an even keel.






Sandi2,
I just read this and loved it!
So on point!
I don't know how to do the framing thing that you guys do so I apologize.

Thanks again DB Board!

[Olya]

If you want my 2 cents, you should sit your daughter down and talk to her about the fact that money will be tight and that you and her mom will not be able to afford things that you once could.

After you have that conversation, I'd suggest you do one of two things:

1. If you CAN afford to pay for this, then just do - it's not the child's fault that her mom is leaving.

2. If you cannot, go drive for Ubber until you can come up with the money.

[Dtrmned]

So.. update..
We haven't told our children yet that we are separating.
Wife hasn't pushed this, nor have I (as I would love for her to realize the value of our marriage). Since starting the DB parts, things have relaxed a little around the house. There is no intimacy or even friendship between my wife and I at this point, but there is also no fighting, arguing, pressure, etc. We still share the same room, the same bed, have family dinners at home, etc. To me a little weird for someone so determined at this point to leave. It has only been a short time since my switch so I am certain it is going to take a significantly more amount of time and some investigation/introspection on my wife's side for her to think about her situation and the direction she truly wants to proceed. I am doing my best doing the 180's, to not be baited into a fight, to use Sandi's 37 rules, to give her the space she needs and not intrude. To be there when she needs me, but not hang on every word or try to continue the conversation beyond its initial part.

daughter and son show signs of this affecting them from when we were at each other's throats, so I am determined to get this back on track. In fact, my wife and I had a discussion with our daughter last evening regarding her grades and we pulled together quite nicely with a united front.

ALWAYS worried about the weekends, this one in particular as the weather will be horrible today and Sunday meaning we are all kind of stuck in the house together. Maybe I will suggest a movie with my kids or a board game, with my wife if she so chooses. Hoping to get the kids out for a hike tomorrow and maybe lunch. My wife is always welcome, but not pressured, to join.

Still having my moments of obsessing, but they are becoming fewer and farther between and when they happen, they are becoming easier to recognize and then control.

Not much else as yesterday outside of the Daughter discussion, nothing much happened. I don't know if that is a success or failure yet, but I am viewing it as success since if we aren't fighting, she has her space to contemplate what path she truly wants to take.

At present with the job I have, doing an uber would be counter productive as I have the kids activities in the evening and weekends and with my wife's health there are many times she is unable to pitch in and get them where they need to be. Plus I already put in 50-60/week already. This will definitely have to scale down if the Big D happens and my income will drop in that case as well just due to the custody and care of our children.

Thanks again DB board! Any and all thoughts, comments and suggestions are welcome.

[sandi2]

You cannot control what your W thinks. You cannot afford to submit to her guilting you. And, she will guilt.......especially when it comes to finances. She is not being realistic, so that means you are the only rationally thinking adult. Don't get caught up in her drama.

Wife also believes that even after we D that if I make it back to where we were, that she is entitled to that as well. I see it as we were in this together, and if you decide to leave, that ends your benefit (pending what the agreement would end up looking like) and if I move on, move up, whatever that she is not a part of that.

Speak to a D lawyer about your concerns. Don't guess at how things will be. Get the legal facts.

How are you doing with GAL? Any plans to do something fun this weekend?

[Dtrmned]

Thanks Sandi!
I want to give her her space within reason and not "pull" the carpet out financially while making sure all our bills are paid. I will not get caught up in the drama. Thank you for your suggestion on discussing with an attorney. I need to hope and work for the best and prepare for the worst.

As far as the weekend, kind of said above, our weather is going to be poor today and Sunday so hoping to get out with the kids tomorrow.

Looking forward to one day looking forward to a weekend again when this settles down (and yes, I am realistic knowing this will be one way or the other).

Touching back on the financial part. I have taken care of everything pretty much since we got together. She has no clue what it takes to financially run a budget. No idea on utilities, cable, cell bill, car insurance, registrations, pretty much everything! This is why she is totally in the dark, delusional, and kind of just out of it when it comes to this. I, on the other hand, am not delusional. Regardless of our prenup and that I may have to argue for full primary custody (with VERY liberal visitation of course) for our children due to her health issues, I realize that there will be some parts that I will have to give in the end.

Pretty much an open book, so if you would like more info, please ask...

Again, I appreciate the input GREATLY!!! It helps me get through each and every day.

[SteveLW]

Touching back on the financial part. I have taken care of everything pretty much since we got together. She has no clue what it takes to financially run a budget. No idea on utilities, cable, cell bill, car insurance, registrations, pretty much everything! This is why she is totally in the dark, delusional, and kind of just out of it when it comes to this.

Almost all WWs are like this. Mine thought she was going to get a job, get an apartment, I'd keep the house (since my D loves our house and property), and we'd get a cheap, quickie divorce. Completely delusional and much in the same boat as your wife.

Over the last 3 1/2 months I and other things have burst her delusion bubble. She realized to make it she would need a real, 9-5 job (she has a degree but that would cut into her leisure time). She realized that 2 bedroom apartments in our area were not cheap (~$1300-2000/month). I told her I would be selling the house and giving her half of the equity (she was not happy about this as she knows it would be more churn on our D, on top of her parents Ding). And then I contacted a lawyer, which burst her $400, online D plan (which couldn't apply to us anyway since we have a child).

All of that took her from 100% moving towards D (I want out attitude), to 50/50 about 2 months in. Now she is 80% sure she wants to stay. From what I understand that last 10-20% will be difficult for her since in her mind it is "giving up the dream".

[Dtrmned]

Steve
You hit the nail on the head!!!!

Outside of the health stuff, that is exactly how my wife is except her bubble hasn't burst yet. I even think (just based on the way she is talking to our D) that she believes she is going to be able to go and work a full time job. With debilitating chronic illness how is that going to be possible? I hope you and your wife work it out totally and she can come that extra 10-20% more and totally commit to you guys moving forward.

I do agree about the comment on the 10-20% part though is that they feel they are in some way settling, giving up, or whatever they may feel by staying. I don't want her to feel that way at all.

A LONG road ahead my friend...

Best wishes to you over the weekend and thanks again. I get a lot of strength from this board.

[TBSakaJ9]

I do agree about the comment on the 10-20% part though is that they feel they are in some way settling, giving up, or whatever they may feel by staying. I don't want her to feel that way at all.

You don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you. If you value yourself you wouldn't want that anyway.

Set them free, let them make their own choices. You want them to return because of the love they have for you not because they didn't want to get a job, or because they couldn't make it on their own or because they didn't get to live the same lifestyle.

If you allow this to happen you will continue to be in an unsatisfying MR and you will be miserable.

Work on getting stronger in all aspects of your life (spiritually, physically, emotionally) and if you do your W returning won't be as important as it once was.

When I first joined the board I literally spent hours a day reading through sitch after sitch trying to learn as much as I could. I came across this quote from like 10 years ago that really stuck with me.

"Those that work the hardest to save their MR have the least success"

I hope it helps.

Good luck!

[Dtrmned]

Post Weekend update...

Weekend went off very "normally". No confrontations or issues, kind of casual. Weather was bad Friday so stayed home. Kept busy around the house, worked out, etc. Saturday, one of my kids were sick so we didn't go anywhere. Wife and daughter headed out shopping in the afternoon. I took the opportunity to clean a little and again, workout to keep busy.

On Sunday, my wife brought up that we were supposed to discuss boundaries and financial issues. I said sure, whenever you would like. She gave me and my son a haircut, I went for a walk, took a shower and we sat down and began our discussion.

Interestingly enough, she had no clue on what boundaries she wanted. She stated that she just felt that we were getting into too comfortable of a routine and if we were separating and moving towards a divorce, that she thought that was unwise. Asked why she felt that way, and she responded that "if we keep acting like everything is calm, not fighting, comfortable with each other and all of that, that she would start leaning back in and she doesn't want to do that". Acknowledged her feelings and asked what I could do to respect her decision and her wishes. These are all that she asked for:
1. To call her by her name instead of affectionate names like baby, sweetheart, etc.
2. To stop giving her a peck on the cheek when I leave and when I get home from work.
That was pretty much it.
3. To respect the other's privacy when they were in the shower, etc.
Asked what else she would like, and she had no clue. We discussed the moving to separate bedrooms. She said she is comfortable with us sleeping in the same bed and at present that was fine with her. I agreed on that point.
She did acknowledge and comment that she loved the progress I was making, that I looked better, acted better and seemed more like my old self as of late. Unfortunately she added she was still waiting for the other shoe to drop and me get angry (Not going to happen any more) and that she felt it was too little too late. Again, I acknowledged and commented that I was just working on me. That I was over my anger from the past issues (our financial crisis), and that regardless of how her and I ended up, that I needed to be who I am and be happy.

Then came the financial discussion. I have been asking her for a number, what she wants, etc. I asked, she said "I don't know". Asked again and she said that it really didn't matter since she couldn't move out anyway. Again, our financial situation is that there is really no spare money out there. She mentioned that I felt she is going to fail on her own. I believe it is going to be VERY difficult for her, but I refrained from that and told her truly how I felt. That she will be fine. She will find a way. She is smart and intelligent person and always resourceful in how she approached life. I do believe this with the reservation that she has not worked in 15 years, has zero practiced skills, and very debilitating health issues. We discussed some of her professional job options and how difficult it is going to be for either of us to work and manage our kids lives at the same time. Her point is "people do it all the time". YES, they do. I've seen it. My sisters all went through it. Regardless if the other parent is involved or not it changed your life drastically. She mentioned that she felt she could probably manage a job 18-20 hours a week. Doing what? Making what? How can you survive on a part time job? (said these to myself and was very supportive to her). We did not argue or anything else. We discussed our budget and how things are just way too tight. Since she filed (and then withdrew) in February, she established her own bank account. When she filed, I moved my paycheck (just for protection) over to a separate account as well. She mentioned that she didn't like that (I'm sure), and I just said that I needed to make sure that the rent and all the other bills were paid. I showed her my paychecks so she knows I am truthful with what I am saying to her (of course we both have trust issues with each other at this time). Again, I asked for her to give me a number so we can start discussing IF amicable divorce was possible. I believe that when she filed in February and withdrew that her attorney charged her a bunch of money, so when we were discussing that if we have to go the attorney route, pretty much all of our assets were going to be utilized and the earth between us would be scorched. Spoke a little about positive attitudes and moving forward and how the attorney route is just going to prolong it for a year or two, cost us everything financially again, and just put us both into a HUGE bad place all over again. We kind of left it where she is going to think of a number and we are going to revisit in a couple of weeks. In the meantime, I will make sure the bills are paid.

Finished the conversation by writing down our agreed upon boundaries, which were pretty much nothing.

1. No pet names
2. No pecks on the cheek
3. Respect when the other is changing or in the shower in our bedroom.
4. No dating or other relationship (physical or otherwise) while we are still married.
5. No one over to our home while we are still married.

She and I have no issues with any of these.

After the convo I went to the grocery for supplies for the week. Over the next couple of hours we just had a few comments to one another. When I spoke to her quickly in response to something, it just as a matter of affection and habit that it was followed with "sure sweetheart" or "yea baby", etc. She actually laughed at this and thought it was funny. I apologized, said I wanted to respect her desire and I did hear her. Later last evening she said that she just wanted to scratch that one off the list.

Interesting to me. Just looking for some feedback on where to go. We did have during our conversation, a brief reflection on our future and how I would happily work things out, but realize her decision, respect it and am working on my (and our kid's) future. It seems like things are working, but it is definitely going to take some MAJOR time, life reflection and I'm thinking a couple of realizations in life.

So what do you think I should do now?

Besides keep working on myself, GAL, staying a little dark (hard to go totally dark when we have kids and are in the same house) and giving her the space she needs right now, what else should I be doing?

I still believe that my wife is a little on the unsure side with the financial part. She doesn't know the cost of things and believes that I should still be responsible for her pretty much forever.

In our conversation she stated "I sacrificed to stay at home with the kids for 15 years". I simply pointed out to her that definitely was not our plan. In 2009 she went back and graduated from Esthetician school and was headed back to work when her first major health issue arrived. I didn't blame her at all, just pointed out that the intention from all of our perspectives was that she was headed back to work 8 years ago. No one could have seen her health issues and we (I) paid for her school gladly so she could go and do what she wanted to do and be productive, independent and fun. We went through health hell, financial hell that caused relationship/marriage hell for a LONG time. Pointed out how I KNOW she can make it again, that I will be ok as well, and that if at present at any time she decided to work and refocus on our marriage, that at present I am willing to do that. Let that go very quickly and almost regretted saying it. (go ahead and give me some bad comments on that one!)

Later that evening she seemed a little more upbeat that usual. Asked about her mood change, and she stated that even though our talk was stressful, that she felt good about it and that we were able to communicate.

Got up this morning, go ready to work, headed out and didn't peck her on the cheek, told her by her name to have a good day and left.

VERY new into this (about a month and was gone for a week) so she is very hesitant on this being the "real" me.

So again my question:
Besides doing what I am already doing is there anything else I need to do other than just sitting back and letting her have her space and contemplate?

Thanks again. Weird to actually have a conversation (not an argument) with my wife. I am not reading anything into it (don't believe anything they say and half of what they do thing).

Looking forward to hearing and thanks again for being there.