Hoosjim's 9th: WW, A ended(?); "All-in" or not?

[hoosjim]

Ugh! Why do you do this to us........just drop a hint at something and then walk away without telling us what happened?

Im trying not to spin too much or get too caught up in exactly what she is doing. Or to try to explain because then i get caught up in explaining away. Suffice it to say she was somewhere she shouldn't normally have been-- at her office, and I found out completely inadvertently. Now it turns out she had a reason to be in the area (buying something for me... she gave it to me today as a gift) though not actually at her office per se, and she did not, as she normally does when she goes in there on a weekend, tell me she was going in. Of course, there are half a dozen good reasons she could have gone in there... and about a half a dozen "Bad" ones as well. It disturbs me that she did not tell me she was going in there. Not that i expect her to report all her movements but... she has been VERY good about keeping me apprised of her whereabouts (even when she goes, as she did two weeks ago with the store next to OM's hangout) to places where I might not be happy she is going.

Ah well, it is all part of the same dynamic-- her not being committed to doing this and doing it right. It'll all get brought to a head after the new year. Leaving tomorrow to go visit each of our families for a few days... two different states, over 1200 miles of total driving.

Also, Christmas Day did not go particularly well. One of my 180s is to be up and going early in the morning, no matter what, and one of her "Bad" memories of me is sleeping in late especially on weekends until half the day is gone and it's too late to do anything with the day. Also her "Holiday blues" that none of the holidays ever end up special. Well, last night, fell asleep downstairs on sofa-- both of us, actually, though on opposite ends of the L-sectional. No alarm and we were up a bit late talking after going to dinner with the kids (which was very nice... and went driving around looking at tacky house lights afterwards at her request-- also fun), so I didn't wake up. Until 1030! Same with my boys-- S19 has been in a sleep coma since coming back from college (he is in a very rigorous engineering program) and S17 apparently stayed up later than he should have on his phone, so they both overslept too. W was up at 7:30. Made breakfast, tried to get boys up, but they weren't budging. Me she didn't disturb either. Once i got up I could tell she was upset... for all the old and obvious reasons. We didn't talk about it much (though I took responsibility and apologized) and she softened up later but... not a good start to the day at all.

Ah well...

[Vanilla]

I haven't said anything although I have been reading along.

Sandi and Artista have both commented in different ways saying reasonably similar things.

I see lots of analysis, lots of telling WW she must sort herself out, lots of compliance and maintaining.

I do not see any romance or seduction, I don't really see any I am attractive to my WW. Together time and seductive Touching! I just read more of the same old same old. Even at Xmas.

Sandi said it very clearly, it is the idea of OM and happiness that is enticing, the dream of romance.

So what do I mean, V be very clear, let me give you a couple of ideas? You lost your ring and to W her ring may symbolise the old M, now I can think of lots of ways this could be turned to seduction and analysis isn't on that list.

It's Xmas and analysing do I give her a present, think less tangible on this, again seduction.....

And in case I am still not clear, carving the turkey after waiting on 3 'tired' men in a household who spend time in bed when I am working hard to provide a wonderful Xmas is same old same old. You have seen the film Shirley Valentine haven't you?

Talk to the wall, you are in a phase of your M when you can afford romance and can be attractive. Aged pa took aged ma dancing all her married life because she loved it, even at 95 dressed in his best suit to visit aged ma in hospital for their 65 wedding anniversary, with flowers (her favourite) and prosecco. That manand November knew his wife's hot spots for seduction and was not afraid to use them.

So where is the romance and seduction?

What are your WW hot spots?

What attracted your WW to you originally?

What were your seduction techniques then?

Where is the Flirting?

Really!

V

[DonH]

Well Jim we've all made it through the holidays. Hope things went well for you. Hopefully you'll have time for an update sometime this week.

[hoosjim]

Well, a new year is upon us. 2017 was a weird one, for sure. January 2017, when I found out about my W's A and fully woke up to just how damaged our MR was, seems like an eon ago. Yet at the same time, 2017 as a year seems to have flown by in a blink. Maybe it is the tendency of the brain to try to minimize painful episodes(?). Idunno, but either way it's a strange dichotomy.

I have some updates and also some resolutions-- call them New Years resolutions if you want, though I personally think the time construct is somewhat artificial. If you're going to change something, change it. (Though granted the holidays do create a pretty convenient and often climactic point in time after which to change things up.)

Our little family, W and I and our two boys, spent the entire week-plus holiday season together. The days leading up to Christmas were fairly festive, with my younger son (the warmer, more open, emotional, passionate, and empathetic one-- also the one with TS) really getting into the spirit, saying he didn't want to lose the "Christmas feeling" he used to get as a child and taking the initiative to play lots of holiday music, get him and his brother out shopping, etc. For my part, I was in good spirits, and spent a lot of time putting up lights, playing alot of music (all four of us love music and have lots of conversation about it, sharing likes and new discoveries and remembered arcana), singing, getting out, etc. Made it a point to plan some fun holiday activities-- We all went down to the historic district in our city on the 23rd, walked around and looked at lights and saw "It's a Wonderful Life" at an old historic theater, and then had what had been our traditional family dinner out at a restaurant on Christmas eve.

W was also not in her typical "holiday blues" that she always gets. She went out shopping, played music herself, was eager to plan and talk about our holiday travels/visits to our respective distant families (hers about 5 hours away, mine about 5 hours further past that), and appeared genuinely glad and happy to be there with both her family and, later, with mine, sitting and talking and laughing with family members, playing games, etc. She was surprisingly comfortable and relaxed talking to my mother (who is the only one of our parents who knows we are having trouble-- I have called it a "rough patch we are working through"-- though not that that W had an A) . This was a change from the August-Mid to late October time frame when W was reluctant to discuss the holidays and our plans, and was definitely uncomfortable doing so, particularly insofar as it concerned travelling to visit our families. We all bought gifts for each other-- W actually got some very thoughtful ones for me, including a very nice and somewhat expensive pair of leather boots (She thinks I really look nice in boots-- "I was after you for years to try wearing boots!") as opposed to the gift cards she had defaulted to the past several gift-giving occasions. The kids got her a couple of nice things that really seemed to touch her that they thought specifically about what she would like, and I got her a very pretty silk and cashmere scarf as well as couple of pieces of silver jewelry (she loves silver way more than gold, and it looks better on her to boot) I knew she would like, as well as a couple of other small but thoughtful things that I could tell she was impressed I put the thought into.

In terms of our interactions, they were generally good. We attended her office holiday party (which she invited me to for the first time in several years), went out a handful of times to restaurants or bars, talked and joked a lot on the approximately 20 hours we spent together in the car last week, and then spent New Years together, which was... interesting. I was trying and have been trying to kind of "low key" things, and not pursue while still being open to us doing things together if she is interested. We got back home quicker than expected from our travels on NY eve, the kids went to gatherings at friends' houses, and we were left with nothing to do and no food in the fridge. I asked her if she wanted to go get something to eat and maybe a drink (It was around 8 at this point) and she said "sure", although she was not happy with the way she looked (she never is these days it seems) and told me I'd need to wait for her to get cleaned up, which I did.

We got to the restaurant/bar about 930, ordered food and drinks, and somehow ended up in a really long, intimate string of conversations that even ventured into a lot of areas about which we had never previously talked. Pretty sure that all started when she started talking with an attractive younger girl and then started in with "what do men want in a woman" and then at one point asked me about porn and what men see in that and what they want to see in that. The conversation became VERY frank at points, involving us talking about sexual techniques and what we preferred and didn't prefer, and then talking about some of our own early liaisons... And something interesting happened here: a couple of our earlier "encounters" from when we were dating/engaged and a lot more hot for each other she at first did not recall at all, or professed not to (and we had had a couple of drinks at this point) but, later, this morning to be exact, she called me on her way into work specifically to tell me that she did in fact remember those times and doesn't know why she did not when we were out on Sunday night. At any rate, the New Years eve night progressed, we ran into a couple of people we knew for a bit and chatted and joked with them, we had a another drink, and shared a champagne toast... and kissed. Nothing real hot and passionate, but at the midnight countdown we were sitting close and talking, and it seemed like the right thing to do and she seemed receptive and I kind of softly said "come here" and pulled her gently in a little closer and we kissed. It wasn't too long or anything, but it was warm (unlike the weird "Test" kiss from a couple of weeks ago where she was really stiff and not receptive) and seemed natural. Not long after, we ubered home to get a bottle and then to a friends house-- single mom we both know with a younger child who was alone with no babysitter and unable to get out new years. Spent several hours, til about 5 AM, up talking and joking and taking turns playing music from our phones to her stereo and singing at the top of our lungs. It was fun, and nice-- really perked this friend of ours up. My W had suggested it as we were getting ready to leave and was really happy that I agreed-- she thanked me repeatedly for it-- "It really meant a lot to her."

Monday was not so nice-- I was a bit hungover but W got one of her famous "delayed hangovers" where she felt fine upon waking but then steadily felt worse throughout the day. She was also coming down with a cold which did not help. We watched foot ball on our family room TV with our sons, and talked a lot--another nice day, but she got progressively sicker, getting the chills and feeling nauseous, and had to go upstairs to the bathroom. I took care of her, brought her sodas and alkaseltzer and advil, sat with her a bit and tried to joke some to keep her spirits up... and something else curious happened here: When I got up to leave at one point she reached out her hand and took mine and said "no, please stay." First time since BD she's ever done anything like that... and I have taken care of her sick on a couple of other occasions-- once with a cold and once that was definitely a hangover (not that she is constantly getting hangovers, but NY's was, I think, the third time in 2017.) And first time she's said "thanks for taking care of me", which she did repeatedly Monday evening and again this morning.

Only couple of hiccups the past two week were on my part with the aforementioned "sleep in" on Christmas morning where I and the two boys overslept while W got up fairly early (though everything ended up well on Christmas Day, we all apologized and she did not stay irritated about it very long) and then on her part the fact that she had that unaccounted-for weekend stop at her office that could have had a couple valid explanations but which never was (I didn't ask directly, though there were several points over the past couple of weeks where that day and/or her office came up and she had a chance to say "Well, I should be in good shape because I stopped by there Saturday and took care of that extra paperwork" or "I stopped by the office to pick up a couple of gifts I had delivered there" and did not but... well... that's actually the subject of one of my "resolutions." She also got a little teary-eyed when she texted with her toxic bff on new years (we both sent around numerous texts to friends and relatives not there with us so I wasn't irritated by her texting in general at that point-- seemed like something everyone was doing), and was realizing that bff is NOT going to be around very much in 2018... BECAUSE BFF IS MOVING TO FLORIDA THIS MONTH, WOO-HOO!!! (Yes, it's definite.)

So, yeah... I would say on my part a definitely heightened level of positivity but also some added "cool" and stand-offishness, and on W's part a definite warming up, a definite increased level of comfort being my wife and being part of the family, and a few more things she's said here and there, including in our somewhat explicit talk Sunday, that make me think she is not looking to have any outside affairs even as she has not done or said anything explicitly to make me think she is all of a sudden "fully committed to being my W, mind body and spirit with no reservations".

I have a couple of resolutions for the new year:

1) To recommit to doing more things for ME in the vein of GAL, whether or not W is participating

2) To stay off the roller coaster of worrying what W is saying or doing, at least in the "micro", hour to hour and day to day sense. This includes not getting too high or encouraged about things that seem to go well (like New Years eve) or too low when things pop up that might make my mind spin (like her unexplained visit to her office.) My assumption, until proven otherwise, is that she is not currently engaged in an A but at the same time that she is not fully committed to working on our MR-- at least not in the sense that I want it worked on. That means I stay level and grounded, don't go out of my way to do things to "work on us", but be receptive if she takes the initiative, but don't distance myself too much or push for an actual separation as long as she continues to respect the only boundary I have so far given her-- "no open marriage, I won't share her" and as long as she continues to show me and the relationship the appropriate respect. If she takes the initiative or lead, then fine, I will participat... but she has unfinished business right now, primarily in the form of IC, and perhaps other things to do on her own journey that have to come from her. Whether or not I need to "have a talk" with her sometime soon to emphasize (set boundary(?)) that I will not live in a sexless marriage and that "working on our MR" for me, by definition, will include working to reestablish a fully intimate MR, as has been previously discussed in this thread.

3) Sort of as a corollary to this is to drop all monitoring of W. I mean, you know, leave open the option to spot check her if something really and obviously suspicious comes up (and I have tended to have pretty good radar here in the past, though not nearly as much lately), but otherwise just let it be. I am pretty comfortable right now with where she stands, and I think if she actually starts to stray will know it and be able to act accordingly.

That's it, my new Years' take...

[artista]

Happy New Year, hoosjim... I prefer silver over gold, too... ☺️🍾🎉🎇

[hoosjim]

I know there are those out there who are not believers, and some even who are offended by the very concept... but my faith has been a touchstone for me, a rock for me to hang on to when everything else seemed turned upside down. And I have seen too many prayers answered... not always in the way I expected or "requested", and too many things that I did not understand at the time that ended up "happening for a reason", and too many weird and inexplicable coincidences for me to not believe that there is a God out there, a God who has a plan for us... a good plan. So, when you read this, know that that is where I am coming from.

At any rate, I am very thankful today. Should have made that one of my resolutions above: "Be thankful in all circumstances" (as the Bible tells us is God's will for us to do). I am thankful because He regularly reveals new truths to me-- usually at the moment they are needed most, because he answers my prayers, because he stands with me and guides me through the Holy Spirit, and because events that I do not understand at the time or that from most viewpoints would be viewed as setbacks or curses often end up being blessings-- tests or hurdles that are necessary for me to undergo in order to grow, or else just happenstances that put me in the right place at the right time to ultimately get to where I need to go.

One new truth I have been thankful to receive is that love is deliberate... we choose to love. Now, I have seen this or read this and been told this from time to time through my entire DB-ing experience and at various points, but for some reason it never really clicked with me until Sandi2 posted her recent "Reflections" thread. I had recently read something recommended by my MC/IC (A Christian, faith-guided counselor who, because of an extremely unlikely sequence of events I am convinced was deliberately put into my life by God), to that effect, and had been looking at it from a slightly off-kilter angle, having been thrown by my W's seeming continued commitment to having romantic love "strike her from above" as well as by my own cold and "off-turned" response to our ill-advised and drunken kiss a couple of weeks back. But somehow, what Sandi2 posted, and the way she posted it and wove it into God's will for us made it click for me: I can choose to love my wife and she can choose to love me-- we don't need anything to strike us from above-- and that can be the basis for beautiful and loving and intimate MR... if we both choose. And for so many years I did not follow the Bibles command to H's to "love their wives." I of course felt that limerance-based infatuation early in our relationship, but, after that, I don't know if you could say I "loved" her as the bible intended... it was probably more selfish in nature. I certainly checked off a lot of the "causes loss of respect" boxes on Sandi2's checklist. But now, I have more clarity on that. I can choose to love, and to do it in a way that is likely increase my W's respect and therefor her love for me... if she decides to commit/submit to that. If she does not, then I can choose to take care of myself, even as I continue to act "lovingly," though certainly at a distance and with less of a focus on a MR-type intimacy. There is a lot more nuance to this, and a lot more thinking and praying I need to do on it, but the clarity I think I have found the last few days has been a blessing. It has certainly helped me understand even more the importance of my W entering IC or else otherwise finding some way to work through her own issues, and understanding that she can "choose" to love me. I think she may be getting there but... that's up to her and I am not going to assume anything.

One of my prayers that usually gets answered is when I sincerely pray for inner peace, or quieting of my mind so that I can more aptly receive His messages and his will, or help and guidance from the holy spirit in the conduct of my daily affairs or in some specific regard. Have any of you ever felt just completely "in synch" with life? Almost like you can do no wrong or that everything you are doing is working or working out? Athletes call it being in the zone, and, while no great athlete myself, I have experienced it myself on the field of play and am familiar with the feeling. For me, it most often comes when I know I am completely right with God-- when I have been "behaving myself" and being diligent in prayer and in looking for His will and what He wants me to do. (As an aside, my own personal "theology" is that God does not punish us or visit earthly misfortune on us for our transgressions but, rather, that when we place ourselves at odds with his will-- with what he has intended for his creation and with how he has designed his universe and humanity to "best" operate-- that we then set ourselves up for misfortune by fighting against the natural order, against the way God intends things to be. We do it to ourselves.) I have experienced this "karmic" effect on a handful of occasions over the past year when I have been in significant turmoil, particularly in church services or when praying, and I have asked for a calming of my emotions and my mind so that I may pray better and so that I may be more receptive to His messages, via church service or whatever, and I have unfailingly been blessed with such calm. Today, after praying for support in "loving" my wife in the manner God wanted me to, and praying for the His help and guidance in all I did and said today, I experienced that even broader whole-body-and-life "in the zone" feeling that has buoyed me through the day. Whether or not that is just from prayer, or because I am also trying to align myself as closely with his will as is humanly possible right now, I don't know. Probably some of both. Amongst other things, it has been my fairly strong impression based on a number of signs that God wants me to trust him in this journey concerning my MR, that he wants me to practice trusting my W, and, in particular, that he wants me to not monitor her or check up on her in any way-- and I have done just that over the past several days, effectively "Cutting her loose."

Whichever it is, I have just felt "in the zone" today. I paid a visit to my W's office (she works in the doctor's office affiliated with the Physical Therapy clinic where I am currently receiving treatment) and, I believe through God's grace, it went extremely well. I just felt extremely comfortable with everyone I talked with-- I was lighthearted, joyful, funny, warm-- and it made an impression. She is friends with several of the other girls over there, and every time I go by recently I seem to hit it off better and make a better and better impression with them, and W notices... and tells me about it. And its not just about making an impression on the W but... I just really enjoyed it too. Most people I am finding are good people, or at least have a fair amount of "good" in them, and are fun and interesting to talk to, and it is heartening to connect with new people or to make new or deeper connections to people you already know. At any rate, I attribute all of this to a better understanding of what God wants as well as a better alignment with his will, and, of course, to my prayers for guidance and support being answered.

Even the happenstance that has me undergoing PT seems to have been a blessing in disguise. At the time I injured my shoulder, I was fairly down about it--- my fitness regimen was the cornerstone of my GAL, as well as the physical foundation for many of the strenuous, outdoorsy and physical type activities that I was taking part in and wanted to take part in. Not to mention the fact that "weak, sickly, and injured hoosjim" (albeit due at that time to systemic illness that is now cured) was one of the "optics" that had plagued my old MR with my W and that I wanted to avoid. I prayed for God to heal me quickly but, as always, prayed for him to send me down the path that he wanted me to go down to reach the type of MR or whatever R with my W he wanted me to reach. As it turns out, the lingering nature of the injury was a blessing-- it led me back to the orthopedic practice at which my W works, and my reconnection with that practice and with the people that now work there has created an additional connection and opportunity for interface between my W and me, and resurrected a dynamic that was a very fruitful one for us when we first met and fell in love-- which also occurred when I was first a patient at that clinic many years ago with a sports injury. That dynamic probably led to her inviting me to her office christmas party for the first time in several years, and to her inviting me on New Years to go hang out with one of the other girls from her office after we had rung in the year-- both of which ended up being good things. And, so, despite the seemingly-bad-on-its-face circumstance (a somewhat serious muscle injury), I am, in fact, thankful for it.

Today, I surprised W when I walked in to the clinic(I had forgotten about the appointment until it popped up on my "alarm" notifications, and she had not seen me on the schedule) but it was a good surprise. She smiled and joked with me, laughed and bantered with one of the other girls who I had very playfully and lightly (and not at all seriously) flirted with when I came in, and seemed genuinely happy I had dropped by. (She was also wearing, though she had no idea I was coming in, one of the pretty silver bracelets I bought her for Christmas.) Do I think this makes us "well on the road to recovery"? No, of course not! But I do think my attitude and my groundedness and the place I currently am faith-wise is making things a heck of a lot better for me, and I think that that can only make things better for us and our MR, and, if it doesn't? Then at least things are still a lot better off for me, and I am in a much more joyful place in my world.

Happy New Year, again, everyone! Thanks for all of your input, help, and guidance, and God Bless you all as we head through 2018!

[CW2017]

same to you Jim
can certainly echo the sentiments of your post. When I get time I go to the main London cathedral which is quite near work. The point behind these trips is to firstly gain strength to deal with the (sometimes daily) mental challenges (there is a very powerful vibe in there), as well as clarity of thought so as not to overanalyse, mindread, etc.

best

[LH19]

Jim,

So are you going to have the conversation I suggested or are you going to continue being in the friend zone?

[sandi2]

Hey Jim, we want to hear from you. I hope you won't fade away.

[hoosjim]

Not much new to report. A lot of "junk" with the kids has been taking up a lot of our time (both W and me). S19 is dealing with the overhang of his arrest last fall (nothing serious, just underage alcohol... he just happened to be the unlucky 1 in 100 college students that gets caught and charged with that sort of thing) and trying to arrange as much community service as possible before school resumes, AND trying to get his class schedule squared away. (He is in engineering and the school is not allowing him to enroll in a Math class after it gave him a late "registration" slot and they were all filled-- SOB's are charging me an extra 4K a year over standard tuition for the E-school, so they damned well better come up with a way to get him in one of those math classes even if it means booting a liberal arts major... grrrrr!) S18 OTOH is finishing up his college apps, which have gone slower for him at least in part due to his Tourette's, and the deadlines are looming, AND he has just started a new course of therapy which is currently weekly and an hour away though it will taper off by months end to every other week. And the holiday rush and chaos with visiting relatives, etc. (My SIL just visited last Thursday.)

So, we've been REALLY busy. Nothing really new to report between me and W. Things between us are about the same, though we missed a week (this past weekend) of having some sort of date night or social outing, as the weekdays and nights were too hectic and then for the weekend instead opting to spend some time together with the boys since S19 is going back to school next week-- which was nice. Son aught my W (and refreshed my memory) on Texas Hold-em poker, which my W really enjoyed and we played late into the night on Saturday-- laughed and joked a lot. W herself is generally a bit more moody right now than she had been pre-holiday... but then, OTOH she hasn't slept on the couch in a while, and she has been sort of steadily getting comfortable being closer to me in bed while we are sleeping-- we cuddle some now at night, though that is all. She has not made taken any initiative on either MC or on IC, nor on any of the homework assigned by MC back on the 20th. For my part, I am not going to push that... if she is not interested then I am not going to keep being the one to bring it up and schedule sessions etc etc. My plan is that fairly soon-- probably after S19 goes back to college this Sunday-- I will have the talk with her about what we are working towards-- either it is a full, intimate, physical marriage, or it is nothing. I'm not going to live in a sham or "half" marriage, and there are a lot of things that really look like she's holding back: Not wearing her ring, not taking initiative on or even asking about therapy, still hot and cold with me physically, drawing closer to her bff (it really almost seems at times like she has a romantic crush on bff, the way she talks to her and seems to "need" the contact with her), and, still, not being completely open and honest with me about the past with OM-- not that I am digging for stuff, but things come up in session and there are things I know she's lied about (like the facebook picture that stayed up for an entire month after we started supposedly working on us and about bff's AP-- also a "friend" of mine-- not knowing about my W and OM when in fact he did and had been shown pics of my W with OM) even though we are supposed to be clearing the decks. Plenty of things to give me pause but the big sticker is just the general lack of commitment to take the relationship to the "fully intimate" level.

I know someone asked me earlier "am I attracted to her" and "do I (hoosjim) want that relationship", the answers to both of which are "yes", though increasingly I can see myself without the woman. She's very conflicted and confused and, in some ways still unhappy now.