in my opinion, nothing is different... she is still not committed... she is still using the same vague vocabulary... she is maintaining... i am telling you, i know the spiel... mis dos centavos...
Whoa! This is a big sign of something in my eyes. Has she ever not accepted communion in the past?
Holder, sorry, I typed that entire post on my phone, very late, inartfully worded and I kept falling asleep. She actually has not been taking communion for several months now... the entire span of time since she started her A, I think. Prior to that, she had a pretty liberal view of when you could partake, so she either a) realizes she's really effed up or b) is just on rebellion against her faith.
She hasn't been to confession at all this year AFAIK, so no way to gauge WON she is in an ongoing/continuing sinful R or if it is just the continusing overhang from a now-ended EMA.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Hi artista, thanks. I am not sure I take your meaning, here... Do you mean to say you think she is maintaining the affair? If so, what sorts of specific things do you think I should be on the lookout for? Definitive things, I mean, cuz right now I got nothing, BUT... I absolutely do NOT intend to be played the fool again. If she is still contacting OM I want to KNOW and cut the frigging cord. But, like I said, the two occasions I might normally have had reason to suspect something in the past couple of months I spot checked her and nothing going on... unless she is being extremely diligent and careful which is not at all her M.O. and which I do not think she would be capable of for more than a couple of weeks, tops. But... then again, I never thought she'd cheat in the first place. Anything's possible. Just wondering if your own experience might have any insight into what I should be on the lookout for.
FWIW, my own opinion is that I think it's more likely that she is not still in the original A with OM but ratheris still in some general state of "rebellion" which could and perhaps probably will lead to "OM2", etc. at some point in the future. Some of things she says, even to me, have this flavor to them-- "I think I'd have a really hard time living during that era because a lot of things they thought was the "proper" way to behave are not the way I want to behave"; All her talk about not wanting to always do what she's "supposed" to do (MC said "you have a choice, why not do something because you "choose" to rather than because you are "supposed to", to which W replied "yeah, but then I'd just be "choosing" to do it because I was supposed to"); Her uneasiness, almost defensiveness, in church, which was and is obviously a big "you should behave in a certain way" institution. This, of course, all consistent with the idea that she has a lot of issues of her own to work out (her idea that she is "all effed up") and that she really should be undergoing IC if our MR is to have any hope of reconciling.
The only thing that has softened a bit with her is the way she talks to friends (or at least this friend from work who is also friendly and fairly open/frank with me) about me and about the MR. In the midst of the A and early on when she was trying in fits and starts to end it (assuming she did), she had a lot of negative things to say about me, repeatedly said "the marriage has been over for a long time, even before OM", and couldn't stand to touch me or be touched me and couldn't see us together. Now, apparently, she speaks to friends very kindly of me, says she feels guilty for doing things (like encouraging my kiss) that hurt me or saying things in MC that she knows hurt me or are hard to hear, says she would like to be able to get back to a level of intimacy with me but is "afraid that she wont be able to", and is somewhat receptive to touch and somewhat more willing to be touched.
Is that "good enough?" I don't know... Not good enough now, certainly, to have the kind of MR I want, but... could it move in that direction from here? I don't know. I tend to think not without her working through her own issues/rebellion first, though. And not sure what gets us there. Maybe like you or someone else posted earlier that after Christmas I just gotta say "look, this isn't headed in the direction I want to go or towards the kind of relationship I need to have with you. I am attracted to you and I am not going to live in a sexless, low-to-no-intimacy marriage. If you cant commit to working towards that kind of relationship, and if you cant get into counseling for yourself and for your own issues as our MC has advised, I'm going to have to step back from the MC and the "working on the MR" effort."
Any other ideas on what behaviors I should expect from her or words I would want to hear from her to be able to believe that she is committed to a degree necessary to give us a realistic shot at success in reconciling?
Last edited by Cadet; 12/18/1710:33 AM. Reason: Combine posts
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Must admit I would find it hard to distinguish between being humble and being overly nice through guilt. Did Sandi go into much detail here (can't remember the actual posting)? You're doing great BTW!
Me 55, W 50 D 8 M 20 T 27 MIL w/ us BD 01/02/17 workplace A (12/09/16, EA -> PA) OM senior manager, long term W, child 14 now: limbo (my choice)
"Don't care what you may do, we got that attitude!" - Bad Brains
when i said she is maintaining, i meant that she is maintaining you... maintaining her relationship with you... there is no real progress... even if it seems like there may be some movement forward, in my opinion, there isn't... she likes hanging out with you, it's fun... she's "trying." all non-committal... but enough to maintain things with you...
she is not coming to bed... she has "reasons,"--really, she has excuses... that is actually a step backward, imo...
you mentioned some different behavior in the last few weeks--excuses to not go to church, or to go alone... not taking communion.. but when Holding questions you about her avoiding communion, because he sees it as something telling, you back pedal and kind of brush it off as though it really isn't that big of a deal, it really isn't something new... you do this a lot...
church, sleeping on the couch, the bracelet and earrings on the day she went to meet friend--i see those as signs of the affair continuing...
her touching you--temp check... and one more way to help her maintain things with you... i hope i am wrong... but i don't think that i am...
i do think you should follow through with this: I just gotta say "look, this isn't headed in the direction I want to go or towards the kind of relationship I need to have with you. I am attracted to you and I am not going to live in a sexless, low-to-no-intimacy marriage. If you cant commit to working towards that kind of relationship, and if you cant get into counseling for yourself and for your own issues as our MC has advised, I'm going to have to step back from the MC and the "working on the MR" effort."
you need to do it because it's honest... that is how you honestly feel and what you honestly believe... she ought to know that... otherwise, you two are simply maintaining... and you're not maintaining a nice healthy marriage, you are maintaining limbo...
Any other ideas on what behaviors I should expect from her or words I would want to hear from her to be able to believe that she is committed to a degree necessary to give us a realistic shot at success in reconciling?
when i approached my husband about reconciliation, i did it on my own... he did not persuade me... he did not talk with me about it... we had been physically separated for two + years... i called him, i came to him... and i asked him if he would consider reconciliation... he thought i was going to tell him i was ready to go through with divorce... i didn't come to him as though i deserved anything from him... i didn't play with words... i didn't leave loop holes... i didn't leave any ways out... and he would not have accepted anything less from me... there was no wiggle room... if you offer your wife any wiggle room, she will take it... if she comes to you with wiggle room (non-committal language) she is not sincere...
Must admit I would find it hard to distinguish between being humble and being overly nice through guilt. Did Sandi go into much detail here (can't remember the actual posting)? You're doing great BTW!
The most deceitful person in the world can act overly nice. Consider words that are totally opposite of humility, and you'll be describing a WW, in part. For example........arrogance, egoism, bold, daring, self-importance, pride, brash......and many more.
Let's say I had treated you as horrible as anyone could treat another human being. One day something happens that puts my life in serious danger. Then who comes along just in time to save me? You do. When I see my life depends upon your decision to save me.........and especially, if it should put your own life at risk.......can you imagine the feelings that might rush into my heart? Deep remorse? For sure! And a knowledge of how much I do not deserve to be save by the person I treated so horribly. So, being the person that you are.....you do save my life. The thankfulness and relief I feel, is beyond words. There is no "self-importance" in this act. There is no sense of entitlement, or false pride. My heart is completely humbled by who/what I have been.......and who/what you are!
I don't know if this is a good anology, but I have to leave. I'll try to finish later.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Must admit I would find it hard to distinguish between being humble and being overly nice through guilt. Did Sandi go into much detail here (can't remember the actual posting)? You're doing great BTW!
overly nice through guilt is all about that person... what's-in-it-for-me attitude... it's affected... not genuine... humbleness asks for nothing in return... expects nothing... you cannot fake it... that's why it's important to take time before believing words and even actions... because a faker can only fake for so long... a faker will fake until he/she gets what he/she wants (temp check)...
btw, CW2017--you are doing something my husband did during the early stages of my A... he knew for months before he confronted me... that was a big mistake... if he had confronted me early on, i would not have become so engrossed in the A... by the time he confronted me, i was fully in it... much too deep... by then it had become a compulsion... i know this isn't your thread, so i will stop here...
