Fighting my way out of the dark Part 5

[joejoe1]

H,

I have a counter opinion. I think those moments are times you can work on your strength and show your wife that you are changing. Every post you have made today on this topic, is about what your wife is getting out of the conversations. What are you getting? What can you learn from them. How can you show your wife that you are in better control of your emotions and you no longer will allow her to mess with your emotions.

You said earlier that one of your wife gripes was E abuse, and you owned up to it by say, "you would be detach and go days without talking to her". If she is opening up about feelings, why not validate, listen and show your strength emotionally. You no longer have to run, because you are confident about who you are and what you want out of life. She no longer controls your actions, and being a part of a conversation she initiates only shows her that you have 180 one of her gripes.

[Accuray]

In the situations where you would stop talking to her and withdraw, why were you doing that?

What was the dynamic during the conversation, how would it end, and what was your goal in refusing to talk to her?

I have seen this dynamic play out where one partner is angry and wants to punish the other to the point of making them break down or getting an emotional reaction out of them.

If instead the person is emotionless or retreats, the antagonist can't get resolution and stays angry and resentful, which further drives the protagonist to continue the withdrawal.

If this describes your dynamic, it was actually your W who was the emotional abuser by pushing you beyond the point you were willing to engage. That's not respectful of your boundaries.

The other way this plays out is that one partner will come to the other with a very valid grievance, the other party will feel guilty and won't want to confront those feelings, and will just retreat and withdraw, and will then punish the other person with silent treatment in an attempt to train them not to confront them again.

In that scenario, the one withdrawing is acting inappropriately.

What was the pattern in your scenario?

[Holding]

Sandi, I'm finally getting around to responding. Thanks again for your comments. They've given me a lot to think about.

When this pattern continues, it tells me that that woman should have planned to just have a career, and not bring children into the world that she is not going to be there to raise. It made me angry when she suggested having another child, with no intentions of being there to care for it. Your comments actually reminded me of women who have too much burden on their shoulders and the man (who spends his time on the job) decides he wants to enlarge his family......without any consideration to the stress it will add to her. In this case, the roles have been reversed. But your answer sounded as if you were panicking at the thought of having another child (and I don't blame you)...b\c you were logically seeing how you would not have any help from the mother. She'd have the baby and hand it over to you. And her reason for wanting another child was so she could have a girl? I don't get why these women want kids when they don't want to take care of them.

To be fair, she never said she intended to just dump the baby on me. It was my interpretation of the future based on the past. But yes, she wanted a girl, the same way you might want a pony or a mercedes. She wasn't happy with what life had given her; it's like she had a list of things she NEEDED to accomplish in life. I've always thought of us (her family) as her dollhouse - something that you can open up, periodically look at, and be proud of. I haven't felt valued as a spouse.

If you read JRuss story, you may recognize you and your W. I was not able to help him, and I offended him in my attempt to get him to "toughen up" with his W. His response to me made me realize I had hit some tender spots.....or maybe it was bad timing, IDK.

I'll check out JRuss's threads. But just to reiterate, I'm not offended by your advice

I said all of that to say this....... if your W has always been on the "spoiled" side....where you, her parents, or someone catered to making her happier....only it never lasted or it wasn't enough? I would say the problem is in her. If she has had a sense of entitlement most (or maybe all) the time you've known her......then the problem is in her. If her having a bad attitude, giving the silent treatment or cold shoulder is pretty normal in the MR........then I think the problem is in her. It is rare to see this type of woman change as long as her H and parents cater to her. I believe she can change, but it would be very difficult for this H....after all this time has passed....to "tame the shrew", so to speak. If it had began at the first start of the relationship......it would have been easier. But now, IDK.

I think you may be right. She's always been very entitled. She wants what she wants, and she expects to get it. I knew this when I married her, but the difference was that, at the time, the thing she wanted was ME. For the first 5 years or so of our M, my FIL would often smile and say, "Thank you, Holding!" He was thanking me for taking her off his hands, and he'd do this in front of her. (Yes, there's a literal f*ckton of daddy issues here.)

I do not agree with your C about apologizing to your W! It would only add to her contempt for you. I think your C is just at a loss to tell you what to do about your MR.

Fair enough. Frankly, it's so sad that apologizing to someone causes them to have contempt for you. I'm done apologizing anyway. The last big one I wanted to get out there was for "robbing her of a daughter". Now it's over and done. I've said my piece.

It's very telling when you describe how much better you feel when the W is not there. I have to wonder why you want to continue living with someone who doesn't appreciate you.

I ask myself that too. It's easy to say I'm doing it for the kids, which makes me feel like I get to put a feather labeled "selfless" in my cap. But I think it comes down to a lack of self-confidence TBH, an issue that goes back to being bullied a lot as a kid. I've recognized this and am trying to get a better sense of self.

And I want you to know this, the SSM will not get better unless she has a major overhaul in her heart. She uses you and is not attracted to you. If you can't figure out why......then don't expect her to change for the better.

Thanks for setting me straight on that. Last week, my STBXW did say she needed someone to be more dominant in the bedroom; that she's dominant in other aspects of her life and wants someone to take the lead for ML. Not sure why she shared that with me - it's not useful info at this point.

JRuss once said I had not given him constructive advice in a post I sent, which is correct. We can't always give advice in every post. But hopefully, I've given you something to think about. And, if I am completely wrong about your W, please tell me b\c I really want to know.

Hey, as long as it's not dismissive or insulting, I welcome any and all feedback in my thread. I'm glad that anyone stops by to read and comment.

I think you're right about my STBXW. It wasn't all bad - there were good times and happy memories. But she was entitled, demanding, hard to please, and easy to anger.

Not sure why this popped into my head. I remember after we M but before S#1 came along, we were on the ferris wheel at a local fair. Looking out over everything, she had this amazing smile on her face. I remember thinking, why can't I make her feel that way?

Looking back, I can see so many red flags in our R, but I went ahead anyway. The blame for that falls on me. I didn't believe in myself enough to know I deserved better.

[Holding]

I have a counter opinion. I think those moments are times you can work on your strength and show your wife that you are changing. Every post you have made today on this topic, is about what your wife is getting out of the conversations. What are you getting? What can you learn from them. How can you show your wife that you are in better control of your emotions and you no longer will allow her to mess with your emotions.

I've tried to handle these convos with STBXW as a way of building my confidence. I want to build myself up so that I can handle whatever she throws at me (and she WILL throw a lot of anger toward me before this is over). I do think I've been moderately successful with that. Maybe "morbid curiosity" was a poor choice of words. It's more of, "I wonder where STBXW is going with this. I'm not afraid of the outcome, so let's see where this goes."

You said earlier that one of your wife gripes was E abuse, and you owned up to it by say, "you would be detach and go days without talking to her". If she is opening up about feelings, why not validate, listen and show your strength emotionally. You no longer have to run, because you are confident about who you are and what you want out of life. She no longer controls your actions, and being a part of a conversation she initiates only shows her that you have 180 one of her gripes.

I agree that this is a 180 for me. I try to validate as much as possible, but I refuse to validate things that are false. She's not going to gaslight me with false accusations. It may go against DB'ing, but I'm expressing confidence by standing up for myself.

[Holding]

Hey, I'm on a roll today!

In the situations where you would stop talking to her and withdraw, why were you doing that?

I'd reach a point in the disagreement where I didn't want to yell or say something offensive. I never did those things - I wanted to avoid them because I thought they were hurtful and unproductive. She went there, but I refused to.

What was the dynamic during the conversation, how would it end, and what was your goal in refusing to talk to her?

The convos would start out fairly civil, but things would slowly escalate. STBXW had a knack for always taking things to the next level. I'd eventually want to walk away because there were levels of arguing that I didn't want to go to.

I have seen this dynamic play out where one partner is angry and wants to punish the other to the point of making them break down or getting an emotional reaction out of them.

Yes, I think she definitely wanted an emotional reaction out of me. Maybe she wanted to see some passion. I felt like heated emotions wouldn't help us solve the issue.

If instead the person is emotionless or retreats, the antagonist can't get resolution and stays angry and resentful, which further drives the protagonist to continue the withdrawal.

YES YES YES YES YES YES!

If this describes your dynamic, it was actually your W who was the emotional abuser by pushing you beyond the point you were willing to engage. That's not respectful of your boundaries.

Holy sh1t, man! Why couldn't I have had this knowledge 21 years ago?

The other way this plays out is that one partner will come to the other with a very valid grievance, the other party will feel guilty and won't want to confront those feelings, and will just retreat and withdraw, and will then punish the other person with silent treatment in an attempt to train them not to confront them again.

In that scenario, the one withdrawing is acting inappropriately.

Honestly, I can't say I never did this. My W's grievances were mostly valid, and I suppose I was somewhat reluctant to discuss them at times. But I never withdrew to punish her or teach her a lesson. I was just honestly so hurt that I couldn't talk about it. I needed a "cooling off" period to get back in my comfort zone with her. Out of all the arguments we had over the years, I'd say at least 75% of them fit your first scenario.

Thanks for the insight, Acc.

[sandi2]

I spit out "I'm sorry I robbed you of a daughter," mirroring her exact words from BD back to her. She was looking at something when I said it, and she pursed her lips for a second and said, "well, it's too late for me to have kids now. I even asked you if you wanted to adopt and you said no."

I really wished you had not apologized for not giving her a daughter. Gee, I didn't know you could control which sperm gender to fertilize her egg. But, it wouldn't matter if you could, b\c that is not the underline issue here. Your apology only puffed up her sense of entitlement and "justification" to point fingers at you for everything wrong in her life. You really can't win by offering these type of apologies, b\c she doesn't appreciate it and will still hold it against you. The problem is her cold, hard, closed heart. The sooner you get that, the easier you will make things on yourself.

I also figured I'd directly address her question from a week ago, where she asked why I often leave the room when she was home. I told her I did it because sometimes I didn't want to be around her. I said seeing her was a painful reminder of who she used to be, and it was a slap in the face to see the new her. I told her I was hurting, and I was hurting for my boys. As much as I tried to fight it, I started to get teary eyed.

Yes, YOU got teary eyed.....but not her! Stop saying this stuff to her. Do you think it is going to soften her heart? It won't. It just causes her to hold more contempt.

Anyway, by the time the movie was over, it was well after midnight. When I turned on my phone, I saw STBXW had texted me 6 times and called me twice! She said she wanted to know if I was okay and not dead on the side of the road somewhere. I texted back that I was ok. When I got home, she seemed mad and said she was worried about me since I'm usually not out so late. I thanked her for her concern and went to bed.

She was mad b\c you turned off the phone, and one thing a WW hates is being ignored by her H and not being in charge of him at all times. All you have to do is read posts where the LBH doesn't answer his phone when the WW texts\calls, and she is going to be hotter than a pistol.

Things seemed to be going civil for a while in the convo, then we got to a particular day where she and I both had something to do. I told her my plans were tentative and I wasn't sure yet. I had a smile on my face (she claims it was a smirk), and she sarcastically said, "What, do you have a date?" She had crossed my snark boundary. I got up and said "I'm done with this conversation. I'm not going to deal with snarky comments." As I walked away, she started yelling that she wasn't done yet. I walked into the MBR, closed the door, and locked it. I could hear her slam something down and say "I can't wait to get out of this house!"

10 seconds later she starts knocking loudly on the door and telling me to open it. I told her I was done talking. She said "I'm going to make a note of this." I'm thinking, ha, whatever. I wandered into the closet to start pulling my clothes together for the next day. In the distance I could hear her knocking and saying something.

OMG! This tells me she is used to throwing tantrums. She doesn't like for you to dismiss her, does she? You have a real humdinger on your hands. She has been spoiled rotten, and it seems you are paying the price.

Now you might ask why I let this continue. I guess it's mostly a morbid fascination. And I was honestly having a little fun in this whole encounter. With my new perspective, it's interesting to see what buttons she tries to push.

Oh, p.l.e.a.s.e., I don't buy that for a second! You are showing nothing different. You are still engaging in R talks and hearing her put you down. Remember this, as long as she is demonstrating wayward behavior.....engaging in R talks will set you waaaay back. No matter if you get something off your chest, or give an apology, or see how she'll push buttons......it will set you back. I hope you will believe me and just stop the talks.

STBXW told me if she came back into the M, things would be good for a while, but we'd just be back to the same place in 3 years. I told her that's just her projection of the future. She asked if I could really keep up these changes for 3 years. I thought about it, and said yes. She angrily asked how she could be sure I'd be able to do that. I told her there wasn't anything I could say to convince her of that.

That was your chance to say, "There will be no coming back". But instead, you sung the same old tune of trying to say just the right words to persuade her back. That does not work with a WW. She has to believe she could actually lose you, and that won't happen if you are constantly telling her it's not what you want. And, Why do you want her? Seriously? Why? If you really want this woman, stop letting her know it, b\c that is the opposite action to take with a wayward W. It does nothing but make you look unattractive in her eyes. Why would she want a man who would let a woman treat him the way she has treated you? I am not saying you are blameless, I am trying to tell you from the VP of a WW. Oh and BTW, she just tempt checked you and you failed.

I want to stress something here to you and JoeJoe, and I hope both of you will take it in the right spirit. It does not matter that your WW initiates a conversation. What matters is her tone of voice, attitude, and the actions displayed during the conversation. The minute the WW makes a snide remark, raises her voice, and shows any sign of disrespect (verbal or otherwise),.......that's the minute you shut it down. Leave the house, if needed, but don't stick around for her to use as a verbal punching bag. Take it from me, if she wants to discuss something with you badly enough.....she'll learn to do it in a civilized manner. It's hard to fight someone if they aren't there. KWIM?

If that had been you yelling at her and banging on her bedroom door.....she would have called the cops. You know it's true, b\c you are already expecting her to call them on trump up charges at any time. So, why on earth would you continue listening to these R talks, and her screaming and beating on the door? When are you going to stop putting up with cr@p?

Hey, as long as it's not dismissive or insulting, I welcome any and all feedback in my thread. I'm glad that anyone stops by to read and comment.

I hope you feel the same way after reading what I have to say in this post.

((Hugs))

[Zues126]

Hello, I'm sorry you're going through this. We're in your corner.

It seems you have to choose between being:

1) Being treated this way, disrespected, screamed at, attacked, blamed, abandoned, and told she wants a divorce and that you are the reason she is miserable in your life, and eventually watching her shack up with another guy, all while continually being an emotional punching bag.

2) Moving on without her and disconnecting from these destructive emotional dynamics.

Right now, you are choosing #1.

You are begging for scraps. You'd rather be abused by her (At least she's still in my life in some way! I'm still important to her if she's screaming at me!) than on your own.

We can rationalize it by 'standing for your marriage', but what you are really doing is enabling an addict. Here's a post I wrote a bit ago:

It helped me to think of my WW as a drug addict. For two reasons.

1) It was easy not to take it as personally. To have your life partner choose another man over you burns the soul. To watch someone addicted to meth leave their marriage and move into a flophouse where they can shoot up every night, well, it's easier to look at that objectively and compassionately and just understand she has an addiction and is powerless over it.

2) It makes it easier to set firm boundaries. When you think of her as your wife, lover, and life partner, and she is appealing to your emotions, it's hard not to be impacted. When you think of her as an addict that is simply saying whatever they need to say to try to enable the continuation of their addiction, it's easier to disengage and stick to the road you know you need to take.

Maybe it would be a better example to describe her as a gambling addict. A gambling addict will burn through your bank account, your 401K, your assets, and your credit lines if you let them. Well, a WW will burn through the 21 years of emotional good will she has built up. She will manipulate and use you and use you until either 1) you are emotionally bankrupt, or 2) you remove her as an authorized signer from your emotional account. This is why detaching is so critical.

Hopefully this helps you in your process of detaching the way it did me. It is time to cut her off, not to apply consequences, not to try to teach her a lesson, and certainly not to try to get her to hit rock bottom and come out of her fog (although if any of this helps her journey then as compassionate people of course we want that for her). But simply because I don't want you going along for a ride with her.

Remember, you can't expect her to let go of her addiction to OM if you can't let go of your addiction to her. Lead by example. Walk the walk. Detach. Go your own way. Be there for yourself. You have to fight your own battles now. She can't save you from your battles, and you can't save her from hers.

So I see your wife as an entitled addict and you as someone that wants to continue to enable her.

Easy for me to say now, but if I were in your spot I would absolutely detach, quit emotionally engaging with her, and take 100% charge of your own life. I'd file D. I'd get my finances in order. I'd just keep walking away and wouldn't look back.

I wouldn't talk about it. I wouldn't threaten it. Words are meaningless because she thinks she can stomp and you will always give in. Actions only. Walk away.

If, if, if, IF the day comes when she asks why, I wouldn't open an R conversation, I'd just say "there is nothing to discuss".

If, if, if IF she then begged and said she was sorry and wanted another chance, I'd just say "I'm not sure it's that easy anymore".

Why? Because those are just WORDS. She has been manipulating you with words for long enough. Look at her ACTIONS.

Now, if the day came when she expressed remorse and humility, and continued to express that even when it didn't immediately get her what she wanted, and weeks and months went by when she demonstrated consistent, steady, rational behavior that backs up whatever breakthrough she claims to have. Well, then I'd be open to hearing what she had to say.

This is the same thing as an addict. If an addict asks why you're cutting them off in an attempt to negotiate for more money or drugs, there is no conversation to be had. If they say they'll quit, they've said it before. Once someone shows me that their words are meaningless they will have to show me the results of a drug test showing me they are 28 days sober and the changes they've made in their life before I'm even willing to hear what they have to say.

In sum, the problem is that you haven't made the decision to stop accepting this.

If you're not strong enough to make a change, how can you expect her to be? Act with the character you wish she had. Be a leader for your family.

[Holding]

Thanks, Sandi - really. Sometimes it hurts to hear the truth, but that's why I come here. I promise, no more apologies, no more R talks. I still have trouble seeing how an R talk will ALWAYS set me back, BUT I'm going to trust you 100% on this. If I do it again, please rip me to shreds in public.

Zues, thanks for your feedback. To be clear, I don't enjoy the screaming and having her around. I don't enjoy enabling her (though maybe I'm conditioned to do so after 18 years of M). I believe I've made big strides; I'm getting to the point of not accepting this behavior from her, but I'm not completely there yet. Your analogy of the addict is VERY helpful, and I'll try to remember that as I'm dealing with her. She has already filed for D, and the finances are as protected as possible. Mediation will happen soon, but it's not scheduled yet.

I'm trying, y'all. Everyone's posts today have given me a lot to think about. I appreciate it.

[sandi2]

The post from Zeus is excellent! I hope you will read it over & over until you have it branded in your brain.

To be clear, I don't enjoy the screaming and having her around. I don't enjoy enabling her (though maybe I'm conditioned to do so after 18 years of M).

We can see this type of conditioning repeated throughout threads in newcomers. Especially when it's the man's first long term relationship. His W trains him.....and\or he becomes conditioned. Most of these H's have the nice guy syndrome, so it's not hard to figure out the dynamic in their MR. And the sad thing is that if the M reconciles or if he goes into a second M.....he will repeat his old behaviors. Know why? B\c he has nice guy syndrome!

This M may not saved. However, you can save the next one by saving yourself from the NGS. Please don't just slide over this as though it is just more acronyms. Read about it, b\c it is affecting your entire life....and will affect your future if you don't make an intense effort to tackle your NGS.

You are dealing with a lot right now. The energy you are spending on your WW, could be used in learning about the NGS and how to change the dynamics in your relationships....especially with women!

So, take it seriously and start tackling the problem only you can control.....your NGS.

[Holding]

Sandi, thanks for the tough love.

I'm very familiar with NGS. I read the book about 2 months ago. I've been working on that side of myself very hard, by myself and with my IC. As you can see, I still have a ways to go.

I'm committed to avoiding this dynamic in my future relationships. If there's any silver lining to this sitch, it's learning this about myself.