Treasur, while I advocate for your self-care, I think there is a continuum of things we tell ourselves. And I don't think you are being a good friend to yourself. While I follow along with what you say, nodding all the while, once in awhile I pause.
The "he's not thinking of me, he doesn't miss me, he's going to marry the OW, that's why he wants to divorce me, I'm a cliche, his call was an accident" comments hurt me to see. I don't understand why these are part of your inner monologue to yourself.
I think you think you're NOT mind reading, because you're opting to believe the worst possibilities, but I think that is still mind reading. The only thing you know is that you don't know and it is impossible to fill in the blanks with information that you are not privy to.
However, what's the most logical thing? Reading the stories of the MLCers and their own words. Most who returned, or tried to, report that their time away was emotionally horrific. And while they may have kept up a front, they were not happy.
Now, maybe that's just because we only get to hear the stories of the ones who return, and maybe those feelings are isolated to those persons. We can't rule that out, but we also shouldn't rule it in.
I understand needing to expect the worst for your own peace of mind, but I do wish you'd be more of a friend to yourself in the process. From where I'm sitting, detached and not knowing any of the parties involved, I think you are likely incorrect in your mind-reading and I wonder why you'd want to tell yourself those things. It seems very cruel.
Do you think that the only way not to have hope/expectations is to talk down to yourself and live with that? Do you think negativity protects you?
I think there is a large grey area that you're missing, where you just don't mind-read and you don't pepper your ruminations with little insults to yourself.
Your H left. He thought that was the best decision at the time. That's true. He had a lot of negative feelings that caused him to toss an expensive watch in the river. But feelings have this way of changing. To say that he's still gone because he's happy and because you don't mean anything to him is quite the leap in logic. There are so many reasons that someone could stay on the "leaver" path that have nothing to do with our worth. Embarrassment, shame, caretaking/people-pleasing tendencies that the OW brings out, knowing on some level that there is something deeply wrong with themselves and wanting to stay away, not feeling worthy of you... Those are just a few that contract with your monologue and any one of them could be true. Yes, he could also be gloriously happy and eager to replace the life he had with you (your assumption), but I think the chances of that are small.
I would like you to be your own best friend and make sure that inner monologue is kind. I'd like you to remember that you have value and you honestly don't know what this man is thinking, and you don't need to fill in that void with thoughts that are worst case scenarios.
Treasur, you have value. You had a love life before H and you'll have one without him, if that's what happens here. But you have to take good loving care of yourself in the meantime. Find the balance in the grey area. Being so negative toward yourself probably feels like protection, but it's not. It's hurting yourself, and I'd like you to opt out of anything that resembles that.
Every time you negatively mind read, come back to that and replace it with a "I don't know, but what I do know is I have value and I am lovable."
I am not trying to say anything either way, because I can't mindread either. I do find his current actions, which you mindread/dismiss as meaningless, as interesting. From where I'm sitting, I only want you to be kind to yourself and to stop filling in the blanks with information that has you as unlovable, worthless, and easy to leave. Please.
Quote:
I suppose I do feel as if I don't sit in the centre of anyone else's life, as if I don't deeply matter to anyone. I feel as if I have lost all the witnesses and cheerleaders for the truth of my own history and who I am, that I have no one to say "do you remember when...?" with.
I don't know you, and you don't need external validation of your worth, but your past was real. You have your memories because they happened. You are someone that another person would miss, because I can tell from your posts that you are a wonderful, kind, and caring person that the world needs more of. A treasure, perhaps
This thread title, and the last, is from a Mumford & Sons song which has always resonated with me since I first heard it.
It has always made me cry and feel hopeful at the same time during earlier life storms and now.
And after the storm, I run and run as the rains come And I look up, I look up, On my knees and out of luck, I look up.
Night has always pushed up day You must know life to see decay But I won't rot, I won't rot Not this mind and not this heart, I won't rot.
And I took you by the hand And we stood tall, And remembered our own land, What we lived for.
But there will come a time, you'll see, with no more tears. And love will not break your heart, but dismiss your fears. Get over your hill and see what you find there, With grace in your heart and flowers in your hair.
And now I cling to what I knew I saw exactly what was true But oh no more. That's why I hold, That's why I hold with all I have. That's why I hold.
I won't die alone and be left there. Well I guess I'll just go home, Oh God knows where. Because death is just so full and man so small. Well I'm scared of what's behind and what's before.
And there will come a time, you'll see, with no more tears. And love will not break your heart, but dismiss your fears. Get over your hill and see what you find there, With grace in your heart and flowers in your hair.
Last edited by Cadet; 08/09/1702:34 AM. Reason: outside links not allowed
Me: 53 H:38 T:20 M:14 BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression S 1/16 PA 4/16 H filed 1/17
Ok, cadence, I'm going to give this a go because you've made me think really hard and think some new things.
Your post really jolted me (in a good useful way). It made me think about who I am, and what I treasure about the core of who I am. It made me think about mind reading. It made me think about assuming the worst. And about being brave and strong when I feel weak. And what I've learned from the (few) big storms in my life before this time.
STORMS I've had a pretty blessed life so far, not perfect, but full of treasures. I have really only had four big storms in my life, but I think I might have developed some bad habits from them that aren't helping me now.
The first was when my mother was diagnosed with bowel cancer when I was 14. We lived in the Middle East and my mother came back to the UK for treatment while my father carried on working, and flew back & forth. I was at boarding school in the UK. With hindsight, this was a tough time for their M. My mother had multiple surgeries and was very depressed. I don't think my father knew how to deal with her depression, and she must have felt very alone. She used me as an emotional support system. Again, with hindsight, more than she should have and my father and me didn't really talk about it. But I remember listening to her saying things that a 13 year old shouldn't have had to hear. And I had no adult to support me. In the end, my father left a job and place he loved, I left a school and friends I was happy with, and we all rallied round my mother to support her. She got better but it cost my father and me things that mattered and affected our life for the next few years. I think I felt that I had to be strong, that there was only me on my own, and that being strong meant being practical and prepared to deal with anything and stuffing my own emotions because they had nowhere useful to go. Funnily enough, in those pre-online days, I remember talking to a stranger in a coffee shop, a middle-aged woman, never knew her name or saw her again. But I thought of her as an angel because I was completely overwhelmed and she really listened to me and made me feel seen and heard. Much like we all do here.
The second was in my twenties when I got made redundant in a recession, had a year of unemployment, started a new job. About a year later, I was really quite ill. Fainting, memory problems, palpitations. Got checked out for heart problems and epilepsy. Saw a ridiculously pompous doctor who wanted to put me on beta-blockers...at 27. I was a mess and frightened that I was seriously ill and going to lose my job/flat. Realised that actually I was so frightened of not being 'good enough' after the redundancy that I was working obscene hours to be 'perfect', that I had to be better/quicker/smarter and that was exacerbated because in my industry at that time, I was often the only woman in the room and much younger than my peers and clients. What did that storm teach me? Well, once again I figured it out on my own pretty much. I think I just found more efficient ways to be 'good enough' and it made me realise that I wanted more control over my working life. That led me to two things really; setting up my own business a few years later and realising that I needed more life in my life, so early GAL!
Third storm. About a year after I got married, I got flu but it just didn't get better. I was very ill. I was tested for things like MS, Lupus...in the end, the medics best guess was some kind of reactive arthritis, an auto-immune disorder. I couldn't walk much for about 6 months. I had extreme joint pain and I slept about 18 hours a day like a cat. I lost my memory of most of about a year. Losing my ability to think and remember was the most frightening thing. My business, and our income, suffered. I felt like I lost myself and I was depressed for probably about 2 years. In some ways, I think I never quite retrieved my professional confidence back. I know I'm good at what I do, but I doubted myself after this in a way I didn't before. What did I learn? Again, H, parents, friends supported me but quite passively looking back. I didn't know how to ask for help and I felt guilty for not being strong enough to 'fix' myself. Over time, I experimented and struggled past it. Physically, I got better but it scarred me and I felt vulnerable in a new way. Again, I didn't talk about how I honestly felt, just kept things to myself but I was left with a lot of guilt - actually probably shame - about it. It made me feel weak and it weakened our finances for years.
Fourth storm: Started when my father was diagnosed with terminal cancer. Mother was as much use as a chocolate hat and pretty self-centred (with hindsight, some of this was early signs of her dementia too). I became the 'spare hard drive' taking him to chemo, dealing with domestic stuff and helping him problem-solve medical stuff as he went, and then 'fixing' things when he was no longer well enough to do it. He died two days after I organised for him to go to a hospice. That was the time when I really broke down after months of just being numb, because I had to accept he was dying and there was nothing more I could do. My H wasn't there, he'd started a new job working away two weeks earlier. And then I dealt with the funeral and legal stuff. And then 3 months later, my H fell apart with a depressive breakdown and ran away from home. And then 2 months after that, my mother no longer recognised me, knew what a kettle was and was diagnosed after a brain scan with vascular dementia.
Looking back on the storms, cadence - and I'd be interested to see what you see - I think I have a pattern of thinking I have to cope alone, not asking for help, numbly stuffing my emotions to support others, expecting extraordinary strength from myself (way more than I would expect from others) and finding courage by tough talking to myself to prepare to be brave enough.
If I was being kind to myself in this storm, as I would be to someone else? I don't know. I think I would say it was ok to be tired. I hate it now when people congratulate me for being strong because I resent that I've had to be because there was just me left standing. There has been too much grief and pain to stuff my emotions this time. I now have a Big Emotions 101 certificate and that has made me more honest actually. I've felt angry that no one was left to hold me up or just hold me actually, although both friends and strangers have been kind. Above all, I think I've drawn into myself and become so frightened that the next wave will finish me off that preparing my brave pants has made me think and feel despair and helplessness. Sometimes I've been so numb that I have been 'meh', mostly about my own health and ability to see the other side of this. I think I have confused 'tough' with 'am I ready for the next bad thing'. And you're right, cadence, I think that means being negative.
So, if I see that now - courtesy of Clever Cadence - what do I do with that insight next? Don't know.
Going off to do some other stuff now. Will come back and journal about what kind of treasure I think I might be!
Me: 53 H:38 T:20 M:14 BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression S 1/16 PA 4/16 H filed 1/17
Lots of musing in the back of my head. Suddenly realised that, bar his job (and massive debts), my H has recreated at 38 his life circumstances at 18. Nothing of his own, camping at his aunt's apartment, a home, car and lifestyle provided and financed by OW. Odd.
Me: 53 H:38 T:20 M:14 BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression S 1/16 PA 4/16 H filed 1/17
If I think about me at say 6, I was curious, intelligent, chatty, imaginative, optimistic, interested in people, kind, fair, bold, impatient, generous, confident. At 53, bit less confident as life got harder...otherwise much the same really.
If I think honestly about what others would say makes me most Me, people would probably say I'm strong, brave, fair, kind, fun, loving and intelligent. I'm probably say intelligent, fair, loving, kind and add creative. Don't feel much fun right now and not nearly as strong or brave as people think.
What do those qualities look like? I'm good at figuring stuff out, and thinking of 57 possible creative options if the first won't fly so usually I'm quite optimistic. I can almost always see that people and situations aren't black and white. I'm slow to judge and quick to forgive. I assume the best of people first and look for the good. I believe that love and compassion are important, and I am generous with both. I keep my word and I step up when some would step away. I take responsibility for my actions and mistakes, and I rarely blame others for things I'm unhappy about.
Have I been using those qualities in this storm? Some haven't served me well. I've tried to figure out the unfigurable, and many of my alternative options have failed spectacularly. It has helped me see that it obviously isn't my fault and that I'm not responsible for a bunch of things. Being naturally optimistic and fair-minded, I've struggled to adjust to MLC land but it has stopped me from being bitter or overcome by rage. It has maybe kept me hanging on to hope and love for my H, and that has kept me in limbo perhaps too long.
And using the same qualities for me? Not so much. I've judged myself quite harshly for being stuck for so long and not being able to find a better route out. I've lost my sense of optimism for my own life, I think. I'm struggling right now to envisage life post-storm. I'm not sure I have stepped up entirely for myself. I might be taking responsibility for things that aren't mine because I don't want to blame other people and feel like a victim. I think I'm not seeing the good in me or trusting myself. Most of all, I think I've just lost confidence in myself as a treasure with a future full of lovely optimistic possibilities. It is most unlike me, but I think I feel as life has slapped me around so much in the last couple of years that I'm flinching in anticipation. I used to be someone who assumed I'd pick a high card against the odds.
What do I do with all of that, cadence? Not sure. There's a quote by Eckhart Tolle, something about embracing a difficult situation as if you chose it for yourself. Maybe I need to retrieve my inner Pollyanna optimism?
Me: 53 H:38 T:20 M:14 BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression S 1/16 PA 4/16 H filed 1/17
Part 3: Facts, Mind Reading & Negative Assumptions
Ok, journalling here goes...
In the context that last text from STBXH (remember the one who popped up 6 weeks ago really wanting to talk 'openly', salvage, responsibility...blah,blah). He obviously decided against calling. STBXH: I don't think this Saturday would be a good idea to talk. My position hasn't changed that I want to get everything definitively sorted out before we talk, if we talk Me: (18 hours later) Sure things will be sorted soon without going to court. Thanks for letting me know.
Cadence, your thoughts about thinking the worst and hope/expectations, and how an inner monologue hurts you gave me a lot of food for thought.
i read this message to mean a couple of things: 1. My STBXH is currently someone who changes his mind completely within hours 2. Mr Nasty Control is still in the building assuming that I will be available post-D although I have said the opposite consistently, along with Mr Meh who thinks that leaving your wife requires no explanation or apology unless you feel like doing her a favour 3. Finalising the D is his priority.
Anyone see different?
I know I am not unloveable or worthless. I may have made myself easy to leave initially because I believed my H had been diagnosed with a serious mental disorder. It is quite reasonable after 18 years to focus on support and concern for your H. I had no prior reason to not trust my H or believe me or our M was not important to him.
I think when you find yourself in MLC land the first biggest struggle is to reconcile how someone you knew for a long time becomes unrecognisable. If you have a Vanisher as I did, who says virtually nothing, you have no idea what they are thinking or feeling. All you know is that they are not acting like the person you knew. Not normal for them, and actually not normal for normal adults often. If you're lucky, you find out about MLC eventually and that it is real and you're not alone or mad.
The second stage is when some of the facts trickle out. For me, that took about 9 months with a second dollop through the D disclosure process about 3 months ago. You have to accept the factual reality that your H has done things you never would have believed of them. A big bit of you really doesn't want to accept they are even capable of being that kind of person. But you also know for your own sanity that you have to look facts in the eye. You're doing that while underneath you are wondering, and hoping, that the person you knew still exists behind the fog but you're not sure. You have no way of knowing what they are thinking or feeling, or most of what they are doing if you choose to detach and not snoop as I mostly did. You struggle to claw back your reality from what is happening now.
As Cadence said rightly, there is a lot I don't know and I have value and am loveable. There is a lot I may never know. It hurts that your best friend and H is treating me and our M as worthless and I still have value and am loveable.
I think I shifted from wanting to think the best to needing to think the worst as I saw more and more facts that it hurt me to deny. That my H had started an A at the same time as saying he wanted my love and support last year. That my H had said he wanted a divorce and then stonewalled me again for months. That he had stolen money and valuables from me. That he had committed bank fraud. That he had thrown a valuable watch in a river after filing because he said he was angry. That he is in a huge financial mess. That he has done nothing which looks like showing care, concern for my wellbeing or remorse. I have no way of knowing what he actually thinks or feels at any given point, that's true. I don't know if he is happy with his new life or OW. I don't know if he is mentally well now although some of his recent behaviour and medical facts from disclosure would suggest not. I don't know what his plans are. I don't know what will happen in his future life. Or in mine, to be fair.
The hardest thing for me has been to teach myself that I am not dealing with the person I knew. I don't doubt my memory of him or other people's experience of him.
Irrespective of what he actually thinks or feels, or might think or feel in future, I was abandoned and am being divorced by a person whose behaviour looks like someone who no longer shares my values and who is indifferent to my feelings or wellbeing. That is just reality right now. Preparing for the worst is an internal 2x4 to remind me that, if I look at actions rather than (few) words, my MLC depressed STBXH does not place me, our friendship, our M or his part of our joint obligations as a priority. The most consistent patterns in the actions I can see are to lie, avoid, procrastinate and run up debt. It is logical to assume, in the absence of other evidence, that he will continue to act that way and for me to adjust my actions accordingly. Which means, yes, I do have a negative mindset now towards the person who I loved and trusted most in the world. I'd be an idiot if I didn't, wouldn't I?
Accepting these realities really hurts me. It hurts that Mr MLC has killed the person I loved, or at least right now. It hurts that I see no signs right now of that changing. It hurts that I am collateral damage, that this has changed my life and that my STBXH shows no care about that after almost two decades. Is it possible that he is secretly thinking and feeling differently? That he isn't happy? That he will have regret and remorse at some point? Of course, and as you said cadence, the anecdotal evidence from folks who have heard the other side of MLC suggest that is more likely than not. But secret shame or love butters no parsnips and it doesn't help me right now.
The creeping danger of having to think the worst of someone is twofold. Cadence you were right to flag it for me. One is that by thinking the worst, you look for it and make it happen. Right now, I think it is realistic based on the little I can see in my sitch. For others, whose MLC spouses start to show signs of recovery, it might be different and you might need to remind yourself to be less negative. The second is that it is a slippery slope from 'accept that your H acts as if you are worth nothing/to blame/his enemy' to listening to the little insidious voice that says 'what if he's right?'. Cadence reminded me that this is the voice to fight.
Me: 53 H:38 T:20 M:14 BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression S 1/16 PA 4/16 H filed 1/17
Ok, just approved financial proposal letter to be sent. If he says yes (to my pretty unreasonable demands, hey ho) in order to avoid being exposed in Court, my guess is he will apply for absolute asap. So I shall be divorced in time for our 14th wedding anniversary next month. Which doesn't make me do a happy dance, but I'll be ok.
Time to look at what's good. - having a runaway MLC protected me from some of the crazy stuff while I was also dealing with my mother's dementia - the D is the price I pay to be financially separated from someone who is spending themselves close to bankruptcy - it forces me to draw a line in the sand and once the house is sold, there will be no need for any further contact which will help me focus on what next - I can date and have sex again if I want to - I like my little rented house by the sea and he has never set foot in it - an ex-H doesn't need my love, concern, mind reading or eggshell texts replies which leaves more mental space for better things - I don't need to deal with legal paperwork or lawyers for much longer - I'll get a replacement for my watch finally like a faux anniversary present, and I can still look at it to remind me that I am a treasure just like my H said when he bought it - I have blocked all social media links because I don't need to know what he or OW are doing and when the practical stuff is dealt with I can block his email/phone etc too so he can't contact me again. He cut contact with all his/our old friends anyway and his family sent me to Coventry too so there will be no leftover links between us - my pension will quadruple in value - the new work opportunities just starting now will give me financial security that he can't trash - I don't have to sit and listen and get hurt by 'talking' to someone who can't treat me or our M with respect and decency...and I've got to the point where the importance of what outweighs the need to know why - I can start planning the next 6 months without waiting for further shocks or surprises - I can stop hoping for a miracle H recovery and start hoping and building a new happy for myself and people who care about me - I can have more conversations with old friends that do not include his name and people won't expect me to know how he is - it removes a lot of chaos, uncertainty and helplessness about things being 'done' to me - I can do what I want and feel how I feel without having to consider the repercussions of it - I don't need to read any more books about broken men, depression, MLC or repairing marriages - I know I am a good person and was a pretty good wife who tried my best for someone I love, and who didn't have an A, run away in tough times or file for D. And I'm battered but absolutely not broken - I never need to have a conversation again about his dysfunctional parents or his way of dealing with them - I never need to iron a man's shirt again or spend time faking interest in one new boring grey car vs another
Me: 53 H:38 T:20 M:14 BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression S 1/16 PA 4/16 H filed 1/17
Ha ha ha at the comment about feigning interest in the grey car!
I love the way you you really think things through and put your thoughts on paper (well virtual paper) in such an articulate manner. I need to try that as I seem to be all over the place.
Again, so much of what you write applies and resonates with me. I have no doubt you will be fine. I think one of the challenges going through this, is wondering and dreading how you will feel when certain steps become reality. In all of this you have the comfort and knowledge that you tried your darnedest and are not playing the victim card but moving forward. H cannot say the same and later if he ever snaps out if it, he will have to deal with that and by then this will all be a dulling chapter in life. He is an idiot.
Me-54 H-49 T-1. M-7 BD 6/13 ILYBN I threw him out OW - 3/13 OW2 on and off Overlap w/Ow1and OW3 OW3 - 8/17 H filed 1/17
