Wife wants to leave marriage 2

[EastTN]

Seriously having the feeling of I have made things worse by speaking with her.

Don't beat yourself up. You drew a boundary, that you can't live like that. How can that make things anything other than better, if you stick by your boundary?

Hang in there.

[Thornton]

If your W is having an affair, it doesn't matter what you do or don't do in my opinion.

You are the bad guy in her eyes and no matter what you do or say (or don't do or say) will be demonized by her.

If you give her space, she will say you don't give a damn about her.

If you try to open the doors of communication, she will say you are harrassing her.

You are in a no-win situation as long as OM is involved.

I would maintain NC.

[Tread]

Well W and I had a long 3 hour talk in regards to our MR. And needless to say we are on our way to BD. I sat there and listened as my W berated me, my family and the problems in our MR. Now she did state that she recognised all the changes in me. But claimed it wasn't enough, because it didn't really bring up too many romantic feelings. I stated that it was hard to bring up feelings when you won't allow me to do anything to draw up those feelings. Told W your looking for feelings when you have a wall up to me. W acknowledged that she simply didn't want to put herself back out there. And then wanted to know why I wanted her anyways.

So I began going through varies reasons why I wanted her. And everything I said was basically turned against me. Because in W mind those interpreted to her was me controlling her. At this point, I refuse to be with a person who's mommy and daddy issues are so bad. That I have to consider every word that comes out my mouth. We also discussed OM who she claims is just a friend now and that me not wanting him around is me trying to control her. I told her having a man around who threatened my life when your my W is disrespectful and anyone with a since of loyalty would acknowledge that. But apparently my W who claims to love me and that I'm still the most important part of her doesn't see the how that's an issue. That right there made me wonder if I really wanted someone in my life like this, let alone a W with this type of thought process.

Then she claimed to wanting to hear what I thought about everything. So I talked my role in messing up this relationship. And also addressed her role as well. My W admitted that she has flaws, but when I mentioned what those flaws were she denied everyone one of them. So pretty much I was the only one in this conversation who admitted to their mistakes. I brought up all the things that my family has done for us over the years. Which she actually acknowledged were true. And how I have done so much more for her family, while she she openly refused to do things for mine. She got mad, but when I presented her with examples. W admitted that I did do all those things. That's when she admitted that I was a good man and did do a lot of great things in the MR.

That's when I told W, that by the way you tell it I didn't do a thing. And you were so miserable. Nothing but silence at that point. From there I tried to provide solutions in order to get this MR better than what it was. And I asked for her input. She stated that she couldn't stay in a MR where I didn't completely trust her. I informed that I was trying to trust her completely, but its hard when your still contacted the OM. Knowing that his W doesn't like it as well. That got W into another your trying to tell me what to do rant.

Needless to say W ended up saying that she was meeting with a lawyer this week to discuss her options. She refuses to leave the home and that separation is not an option. But it will probably take awhile before we can come up with the funds for a divorce. So at the moment were stuck with each other. Probably will end up selling the home, since neither one of us individually can afford the place. Hoping during that time period W might change her mind. But I at this moment, I'm going to continue with detaching and focusing on S13.

[Coconut]

And I'll say again...

Your WW is getting the best of both worlds, she's getting the excitement of meeting new people romantically, and is getting the "family time" when nothing else going on, and she's still getting sex from you when she wants it.

You don't have to go straight to D if that's not what you want, but you mayor want to get a place to yourself (you or her move out), cut most communication out and all physical contact, and find your happiness. Once you are in a place where you are happy on your own, you'll have a better idea if you want to go back and put in the work to piece, and by then you'll know where she stands.

while your finding yourself/happiness, she will be doing the same, and her actions will show you if she is someone you want as your W, or if she is someone you couldn't be happy with.

FYI, conversations like that are hurting your chances of ever reconciling, and she will never admit her faults while wayward..

If your not able to detach (which I wasn't), I suggest you consider moving out , but talk to a lawyer before doing so (I didn't have child custody to consider). NOTHING is harder than in house separation if your not able to detach.

[Tread]

Coconut,

How do you suggest that I address conversation like that when they come up? The lawyer I talked with suggested not leaving the home. So leaving for me is not an option. Hell, I can't afford to live anywhere else. Tried to get W to stay with her sister, since she lives right down the road. But she refuses to leave as well(probably got the same advice i did).

[25yearsmlc]

Tread I'm sorry I don't recall all your details off the top of my head, but I do think a 3 hour R talk isn't productive

unless you're discussing how to repair things and moving forward...and even then, I'd break it down into smaller time periods. No one can recall much of a long emotional conversation, so a ton of perhaps valid points are lost anyhow. A lot of what is recalled is what hurts the most.

Sorry

Well W and I had a long 3 hour talk in regards to our MR. And needless to say we are on our way to BD. I sat there and listened as my W berated me, my family and the problems in our MR. Now she did state that she recognised all the changes in me. But claimed it wasn't enough, because it didn't really bring up too many romantic feelings. I stated that it was hard to bring up feelings when you won't allow me to do anything to draw up those feelings. Told W your looking for feelings when you have a wall up to me. W acknowledged that she simply didn't want to put herself back out there.
Sounds like this talk & your w was there to justify, not explore.

All you can do is utter a few mantras to stay on track, which she may recall later. I think it's key to say that "I'm sorry I hurt you. If I had it all to do again, I'd do a lot of things differently."

(^^ this shows that you recognize the need to change AND are in fact changing, so things would be different. But you are not being a doormat or owning all the problems)

Once you sincerely apologize for something in the past, keep the conversation redirected - "as you know, I do regret it. So can we now focus on..."

I personally believe in saying that love is in part, a choice & always will be. It's true and I am so tired of people talking about feelings directing their actions as if feelings land on them out of the blue and THEN they must leave/stay.

We create a lot of our emotions, and we do not have to act on any.


I would table the rest of an "R talk", when it's clear that she's just giving her closing statement - asking for a guilty verdict.


-doesn't see the how that's an issue. That right there made me wonder if I really wanted someone in my life like this, let alone a W with this type of thought process.


the thought process of a WAS - I am told - often but not always - clears up in a few/many years.

That does not mean she will 1) tell you; or 2) do anything about any regrets or revisions of the m.

Nor does it mean she won't have already moved on, nor does it mean you won't.

But I HOPE and think that their marital revisions - when truly extreme, improve. My h's revisions are so intense that I did not think I was reading the correct pleading. I thought my L sent me the wrong one, it was that distorted.

My guess is that h distorts and substitutes his own version of things and his own narrative at first to protect himself from the law or my anger?? Or what the kids think...but the weird part is I think he believes things he surely should not. Things I can prove are false.

Not much we can do about someone who tells you black is white and the coffee cup in your hand is actually a shirt.

Anyhow, we have no control over the thoughts in their heads...and probably need to control our own better.

Sorry

Then she claimed to wanting to hear what I thought about everything. So I talked my role in messing up this relationship. And also addressed her role as well. My W admitted that she has flaws, but when I mentioned what those flaws were she denied everyone one of them.


I don't think it's our job to list their flaws. We can mention events or actions that hurt US, not that make them bad people. Of course it aroused a defensive posture on her part. This list of her flaws could not possibly have helped you or the situation.

So pretty much I was the only one in this conversation who admitted to their mistakes.



She'd have known that without you listing her flaws. And it undermines all the reasons why you want to remain m. Do you get what I mean?



I brought up all the things that my family has done for us over the years. Which she actually acknowledged were true. And how I have done so much more for her family, while she she openly refused to do things for mine.


So you got out your scorecard, and this just never helps. First off, it's a record of wrongs/rights that don't belong in a marriage.

Second, our spouses have their own scorecards and way of measuring & keeping track, and on their scorecards, we are not ahead. It's a bad idea to bring up the past this way as it forces them to do the same and then, we lose.

She got mad, but when I presented her with examples. W admitted that I did do all those things. That's when she admitted that I was a good man and did do a lot of great things in the MR.

Just thank her for acknowledging your actions but please don't bring them up again. The rest of this below is just unproductive.

That's when I told W, that by the way you tell it I didn't do a thing. And you were so miserable.

Arguments like this ^^^force her to cement that idea or her misery OR admit being wrong...so she chose to confirm her belief that she was miserable - because of You...


Nothing but silence at that point. From there I tried to provide solutions in order to get this MR better than what it was. And I asked for her input. She stated that she couldn't stay in a MR where I didn't completely trust her. I informed that I was trying to trust her completely, but its hard when your still contacted the OM. Knowing that his W doesn't like it as well. That got W into another your trying to tell me what to do rant.


^^^ this was all a battle between who had the most points or demerits. Not a battle either can win. Much more like lawyers arguing opposing views for the non existent jury.

You want to build from common ground, not pick each other apart. Sounds painful.


Needless to say W ended up saying that she was meeting with a lawyer this week to discuss her options. She refuses to leave the home and that separation is not an option. But it will probably take awhile before we can come up with the funds for a divorce. So at the moment were stuck with each other. Probably will end up selling the home, since neither one of us individually can afford the place. Hoping during that time period W might change her mind. But I at this moment, I'm going to continue with detaching and focusing on S13.

I hope you can learn to detach. No R talk for over 10 minutes, and even then I'd just stay on message. You would do things differently, it can be better, you have history and a son, and then drink a STFU smoothie & GAL to detach.

Lose the scorecard b/c on hers, you lose anyhow.

IMO, scorecards in a marriage are not constructive, ever.

Use your time wisely.

Become a man only a fool would leave.

[Coconut]

Ok, if L says not to move out, then staying for daughter is most important.

How do you handle those conversations? First of all, don't have them. Validate her feelings and don't drag out the conversation. I suggest you spend as much time away from the house as possible, take your D places, and when she's not around, just go out.

[Tread]

25yearsmlc,

Thanks for the advice. I really didn't want to go there with the score card. But it got to the point where I got tired of her degrading my parents as if they hadn't done more for us, than any member of her family combined. My point was to simply remind her that they aren't what she is claiming them to be. But I see what your saying about how W may have taken it.

I initially wanted a 20 minute conversation and I allowed it to go longer, just trying to acknowledge and validate the reasons why she wanted to leave the MR. But a lot of time was me enduring getting yelled at and even hit one time. And your right about listing her flaws being a bad idea. I brought up examples, but it just led to "Then why do you want me." talk. So I see where your coming from.

Literally I was destroyed by my W by trying to say all the right things. W even complained about the things I was doing to work on this relationship. Some of the things she like and other things got on her nerves. That's when I told her that I wish she would have communicated those things with me sooner. Which has been a huge problem in our MR.

[Tread]

Coconut,

I'm about to take S13 out skating this afternoon. And your right, I'm going to continue staying away from the house as possible.

[AnotherStander]

I sat there and listened as my W berated me, my family and the problems in our MR. Now she did state that she recognised all the changes in me. But claimed it wasn't enough, because it didn't really bring up too many romantic feelings.

^^THIS is why Michele says no R talks!! It never, ever goes the LBS’s way. It almost always ends up being the WAS’s gripe session, an opportunity to drag out a laundry list of the LBS’s faults. For the WAS it just reaffirms their belief that leaving is the right thing to do. It’s also why MC is a bad idea early on.

I stated that it was hard to bring up feelings when you won't allow me to do anything to draw up those feelings. Told W your looking for feelings when you have a wall up to me.

Don’t argue/ beg/ plead/ explain/ reason/ justify. Just LISTEN and VALIDATE. See this thread for great examples of validation:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

So I began going through varies reasons why I wanted her. And everything I said was basically turned against me. Because in W mind those interpreted to her was me controlling her.

EXACTLY!!! To her it just looks like “more of the same” behavior. So what would be a future 180 for you on that?

At this point, I refuse to be with a person who's mommy and daddy issues are so bad. That I have to consider every word that comes out my mouth.

Doesn’t sound like mommy/ daddy issues to me, this is pretty typical of a WAS. This is how she sees things, and if you want a chance at R, you need to see things from her perspective. And yes, you DO need to consider EVERY word that comes out of your mouth. Are you familiar with Sandi’s 37 rules? That’s basically what they are- rules for how to act, what to say and what not to say when dealing with a WAS. You broke many of them!

Then she claimed to wanting to hear what I thought about everything. So I talked my role in messing up this relationship. And also addressed her role as well. My W admitted that she has flaws, but when I mentioned what those flaws were she denied everyone one of them. So pretty much I was the only one in this conversation who admitted to their mistakes. I brought up all the things that my family has done for us over the years. Which she actually acknowledged were true. And how I have done so much more for her family, while she she openly refused to do things for mine. She got mad, but when I presented her with examples. W admitted that I did do all those things. That's when she admitted that I was a good man and did do a lot of great things in the MR.

I’m guessing this too is “more of the same” behavior for you. If you say “I did x, y and z wrong, but here’s a laundry list of everything YOU did wrong” then how do you expect her to receive that? It’s your job to own what YOU did wrong and let HER own what SHE did wrong, if she chooses to do so (which most WAS's will not do with the LBS). What you did is controlling behavior even though I know you don’t see it that way. But she does.

But I at this moment, I'm going to continue with detaching and focusing on S13.

Honestly if you’re having these type of R convos with your W then I’m pretty sure you haven’t even started detaching. It’s tough when you’re under the same roof, but you’ve got to figure out how to give her time and space. And the R talks have got to stop, I hope you realize they’re just making your sitch worse.