WW in A; NC achieved(?), Next steps. (2nd thread)

[Tread]

Hoosjim,

That curiousity from the WW always kicks in. Naturally they wonder why you stopped pursuing. Is the fact they went too far or perhaps did you find someone else? Nobody likes getting kicked to the curb. Keep doing what appears to be working.

[sandi2]

What are the two assignments you and W were given to do this week?

[hoosjim]

Sandi, looking at my notes, we were supposed to 1) come up with a transparency plan (she actually said this), 2) practice complete honesty in our conversations in general 3) schedule st least three "working dates" to discuss the MR, identify specific problems and workbon ways to solve, 4) Find time to talk about and grieve our miscarriage from a few years back, which we had both "buried" and never really discussed and 5) there was also a hand caressing/touching/exploration/discussion exercise we had done in office she wanted us to do again which had highlighted some of the differences with how each f us was responding to touch by the other. Obviously, most of these not terribly appropriate if the affair, as appears evident, is still raging. Just not much point, and her response to the transparency discussion shows that.

Quick, and important question: I am NOT "hot to "confront her about OM" BUT, obviously, in this drop the rope scenario, as you nite, it is bound to eventually come up. I was slightly unclear on what the trigger is to restate my boundary-- obviously I would if she tries to engage in a discussion about the MR, and then I would only say "I know you've been lying" if she presses from there. However, what if she just asks, or, more likely, presses me on "what's wrong" or "are you mad at me" or the like? Is that time to restate the boundary too, or is that just a time for me to he evasive and say shortly "no, nothing wrong". IOW, is the only time I go down the boundary (and, by extension, I know you're lying) Road when she specifically wants to discuss the MR?

I also understand the caveats here and that once that cat is out of the bag I will not pursue her or accommodate her or her A in any way. I am also in that eventuality, prepared to suggest that we separate the living arrangements, unless you think that would be precipitous. (NOT saying file for D, here.)

Thanks!

Additional couple of things I forgot to add to previous response:

There were two other "tasks" we were given by MC. One, as I previously mentioned, was to find/make dedicated one on one social time (date nights, if you will) between the two of of, which, as I mentioned, we had also done. Two, our surveys that we had taken independently before our first MC session showed a high level of stress in both of us as well as identifying the most profound "life stressors". She had given us an exercise to do involving a matrix to prioritize the most important of those and also identify the most and least solvable of those identified as most important and then work together to come up with some solutions. We could do that as one of our "working dates". Again, though, all this seems pretty superfluous as long as the A rages on.

FWIW, my own personal take on what to say to W if she asks "are we still going to see MC on Friday" or something similar would be to say "under the current circumstances, i don't really see the point."

Anyway, interested in your additional take on all of this.

More color--

Talked to MC today, individual session. Gave her the full run-down of what I knew, how I knew it, etc., which she had not previously been fully privvy to. (I had just told her i knew the A was more serious than W was letting on, and that I had been doing some snooping to find out.) Today, basically gave her the whole history, effectively "outed" my W to her. Maybe a mistake, idunno, but wanted the feedback and thats what shes there for.

In sum, she agreed that my boundary needed to be enforced at some point, but specifically that my W "needs to know that I know" that she has broken NC and that the A is ongoing and that she lied to me. She (MC) was agnostic as to whether or not to reveal all the details I knew and how I knew them, seeing benefits and risks to both paths. (Full reveal = she can go deeper underground and thwart monitoring, BUT less wiggle room for her to argue and some women will not acknowledge or believe H knows until confronted with actual evidence). Most important thing, though, was that W knows I know, which, she granted, could appropriately come about through my rope-dropping and pulling back and W asking me what was "wrong".

Surprisingly, she also indicated that it would be okay, and maybe even preferable, for me to show some anger-- not violent over the top anger, but definitely some genuine offense at what she has done. Particularly interested in people's take here, as I tend to agree and always wondered about the DB insistence on "quiet tone of voice", etc., unless it was due to over-sensitive fears of spousal abuse arising from an angry scenario (and my MC did caution against allowing anger to creep in if either of us had anger management or violence issues, which we do not.) At any rate, she agrees that once W "knows that I know", i need to appear to be absolutely, 100% NOT okay with what's going on.


Also, one quick note to add in terms of reviewing all I know versus revealing that I know: the MC did say that just revealing THAT you know, can offer the additional advantage of giving the wife the opportunity to come clean a little bit on her own and demonstrate some remorse as opposed to just hitting her over the head with all of the accusations and facts

[sandi2]

I was slightly unclear on what the trigger is to restate my boundary-- obviously I would if she tries to engage in a discussion about the MR, and then I would only say "I know you've been lying" if she presses from there. However, what if she just asks, or, more likely, presses me on "what's wrong" or "are you mad at me" or the like? Is that time to restate the boundary too, or is that just a time for me to he evasive and say shortly "no, nothing wrong". IOW, is the only time I go down the boundary (and, by extension, I know you're lying) Road when she specifically wants to discuss the MR?

The time to have restated your boundary was when she balked at being transparent.  However, I am sure you will get another chance.  I think your MC is pretty much telling you that the game changes at this point.  She just didn't give you the "how to". 

Here's the thing to remember.  Don't try to prove to your W what she's doing.  She KNOWS what she's doing, okay?  This becomes a trap for the H. It's not your job to prove what you know and what she knows.   There have been reports of men showing pictures, text messages, the whole nine yards.....and the WW would still deny it.  So don't waste your time or dignity arguing with her about what you know.  Do NOT give her the source of your intell. You may never use it again, but to tell her would be a mistake. Some men think they will get on the better side of his W if he tells, but no.......it only make her more angry. The WW turns this entire thing around and puts the H in the hot seat for "spying" on her........and it distracts from the affair. Just telling her you know, is enough. It's not your job to convince her.

However, what if she just asks, or, more likely, presses me on "what's wrong" or "are you mad at me" or the like? Is that time to restate the boundary too, or is that just a time for me to he evasive and say shortly "no, nothing wrong".  

No, don't be evasive. 

FWIW, my own personal take on what to say to W if she asks "are we still going to see MC on Friday" or something similar would be to say "under the current circumstances, i don't really see the point."

It sounds okay to me. Of course, that's a leading statement and she will probably come back with another statement or question, and that may be the time to say, "Look, we both know you have been lying about NC with the OM. Until you decide to do the right thing, I see no reason in continuing MC. I will not live in (repeat your boundary)". . That's when she'll probably try to find out what you know. Be careful and don't let your emotions take over and say too much.

I would not say anything about one of you moving out, unless she pushes it. You probably need to avoid words like "insist". You don't want to look like a wimp, but neither do you want to be an a$$. Be in control of yourself, and do not get into a shouting match or make any threats. We've read about H's having false charges brought against him. One guy just stood in the doorway, and his W told the police that he was threatening and she was afraid, etc.

I tell you all of that b/c it would be rare to have a positive outcome, right there on the spot. By that, I mean if she broke down and apologized and promised to never contact him again......that would be positive, IMHO. However, you may want more assurance than just her words, considering that she has been lying to you. Think about different ways it could go, and if you don't know what to say in response, you can always tell her you will need to think about it.

If it goes the way you hope, then later you could suggest using the MC assignments........and attend the session this week. Don't push the assignments, especially the touching stuff, if she doesn't want to engage.. Since the MC knows more now, she may approach your W differently or give different advice.

After the H has repeated his boundary, I don't think he should do it again. The next time calls for him to back it up. And, you may have to back it up this time. It depends on what she does.

[hoosjim]

Thanks, sandi.

I guess what I was also getting at in my previous post was how to respond to the basic "is something wrong/ why are you acting so different" question. Obviously not being evasive, is that my "invite" to say "look, I gave you a boundary, we both know you haven't respected that",or, perhaps "look, we need to talk..." (the latter because our kids are still at home usually when we are and our,house is,not large and I would want this talk to be confidential). I guess what I am asking is it okay to segue right into the boundary/no contact/ we both know" Convo straight out of her question "what's the matter", or should I be more roundabout?



BTW, playing it cool and dropping rope serms,to be having an effect. She has definitely been seeking ME out around the house, even to point of just sitting there near me watching a couple times while I read ordo paperwork, and also texting me and calling a LOT more.

Then again, she could also just be gearing up to do something egregious with OM, as it has been her pattern in past to be particularly chatty or text-y as she is heading off for a rendezvous. ... but this seems to be a lot more than she usually does in those circumstances.

Unreal almost how much she is texting me now, starting Sunday evening, a little less than 24 hours after I "dropped the rope." I am not responding to her texts, currently, unless they concern the kids or some item of domestic work/business that has to be attended to, and I am not being overly verbose when she calls me. But she keeps the texts coming. Alot of them very friendly, joking, if not QUITE "flirty". On calls, alot of silences on the line, like she's waiting for me to say something. Also watching me alot at the house. It's weird. Then last night she had a major major hair appointment where she got keratin treatments, etc. etc, and called me on the way back to say, "Wow, i really feel frisky now with my hair looking so great-- its never looked like this". I just let the comment pass.

And it also really hurts, and makes me feel kind of empty, to intentionally put up a barrier there, to intentionally not engage in the conversations and text exchanges. Because of the way I feel about her but also because she is just a whole lot of fun and we connect well intellectually. Dammit. Gotta stay strong.

[hoosjim]

I am assuming all of this will change when the discussion about boundaries and NC inevitably come up this week. MC session is scheduled for Friday, so one way or another that discussion will happen by then. Will be interesting to see. Probably very painful for both of us.

[sandi2]

I guess what I was also getting at in my previous post was how to respond to the basic "is something wrong/ why are you acting so different" question.

The same answer you would say if she asks about attending MC.

Obviously not being evasive, is that my "invite" to say "look, I gave you a boundary,

But you did not give HER a boundary. Unless I misunderstand what you mean. Maybe you mean you gave her your boundary, IDK. You did not give her an ultimatum, did you? B/c there is a difference in a boundary and an ultimatum. I tried to go back through your threads to find exactly what you did say.....when you woke her up that night. It was never clear to me. I remember you said no contact with OM, but I was not clear about how you stated to her what you could not live with. It is your boundary. It is to protect yourself by not accepting certain treatment upon you physically, mentally, emotionally, etc. It is your personal boundaries, integrity, values, spiritual/moral beliefs, that should direct your relationships. So, what exactly is your boundary, Hoosjim? Maybe you never told her and if not, this might be the time to say something like, "I cannot live in a M of three"......or however you want to say it. But it's about YOU and what YOU can't live with. She is free to do whatever the heck she wants to do. She has a choice to honor your boundary, or ignore it. If she doesn't clearly know your boundary, how can you expect much?

I am a little sensitive to some of the phrases/words you choose to use when describing something that's related to the board's advice, b/c it hints to me you are not really grasping the full message of what we are trying to communicate. (And I am not mad when I say this. I am just frustrated b/c you want to be spoon fed or take a poll of the various sources of advice, instead of learning what you need to learn). You may not appreciate when I say you aren't grounded enough, but this quote above is an example of what I mean. By not being grounded, I don't mean you are flippant or wishy washy. I mean you are not "getting" the whys behind the actions. You don't have a plan b/c you don't "get it". You want to know every possible conversation in the universe and how to respond......but you aren't processing properly. You just want some action to do that gets you immediate results......but when you don't understand the purpose behind the actions, you will scr@w up. We tried to explain boundaries and how they work. You still don't get it. Did you even read the homework on boundaries? Your plan should be tied to your boundaries.

I guess what I am asking is it okay to segue right into the boundary/no contact/ we both know" Convo straight out of her question "what's the matter", or should I be more roundabout?

I have doubts she is clear about you stating a boundary, but she knows perfectly well you don't want her contacting OM. If she gives you an opening by asking about the MC session or "what's the matter", then I would ask her to step into the bedroom where you can have a private conversation with her. Once you are in the bedroom, your goal is to let her know you are aware she has been deceiving (or lying, cheating, whatever) and that she has continued to contact the OM. If she asks what you know, then it's up to you what to say but don't tell her how you know. Don't give away too many details. If she asks about seeing the MC this week....then you could say something like, "Do you see any point attending, if there is no commitment to work on the MR?" The final thing you should state is your boundary. "I will not ____________". "I am willing to make changes to improve our MR, but I will not __________". (You've clearly stated your boundary two times here). "If this continues, then I will ____________".

I would not get off into how she should leave the home or what to tell the kids, or her lack of feelings, etc. You want to keep it limited to telling her you know, and you won't continue to live with it and if it doesn't stop, then you will ________. Then end the conversation by saying, "I think we need to end the conversation here for now, and you can think about the MC and whether or not you are ready to commit to saving the M. Otherwise, I am not going to continue going down the path".

As I've said previously, I am not the greatest at wording conversations.

[DonH]

As I've been reading, I've really thought hoosjim just doesn't get it. I don't say that in a mean way - I really don't. I now see that sandi has said it - you're just not getting it. In some circles, certainly medicine, this is called critical thinking skills. Some new nurses or paramedics want to see a patient with chest pain and give them oxygen, aspirin and nitroglycerin. Well it's not always that simple. You can't just always see A and do B. As not all chest pain patients are treated with these medications - a 15 year old hit in the chest with a baseball for example.

It's the same here. You seem to want to learn these skills by if she says A I should do B. Again, it's not that simple. Just as the nurse needs to understand the underlying principles so do you with DBing. The only way to do this is by studying, learning, doing the homework. Then you have to put it into practice.

It can be hard to do and for some, they decide medicine is not for them. Not sure that option applies as in saying DBing is not for you. So all you can do then is try to learn it - I mean really learn it. Not short cut by asking what should you do or say if she does or says A, but by learning how to figure that out on your own. You then do some trial and error. But you first have to dig deep, read the books and do the homework sandi and others are suggesting. There is no way we can give you an answer for every potential situation. You've got to be able to critically think through the options based on LEARNING THE DB PRINCIPLES.

And again, I say this not at all to be mean - just to help.

[hoosjim]

Sandi, I really apologize. I am just very poor at wording things sometimes.

I fully understand that the boundary is mine and for my protection. I did not mean that "i gave HER a boundary" (though, yes, that is what I typed), what I meant was that I gave/explained to her MY boundary, which was what i did. I was VERY clear with her...although in fact we had to have two conversations about it within less than a week because she said she didn't get it (or perhaps pretended she didn't get it and i indulged her) thinking it was about me wanting a thumbs up or thumbs down on us and wanting her to do certain things or not go certain places. I think she was waffling, but I was VERY clear: "I will not live in an open marriage; I will not share you with another man. I cannot control YOU, but I can control what I allow in my "circle"" (a concept from one of the sermons at our church at one point.) And that's the basis from which I will work going forward. When we ultimately have this next conversation: "I told you I had a boundary, which I stated very clearly, about what I would and would not live with." (Followed by, depending on how she responds: "We both know you have been lying about no contact with OM. Under the current circumstances, I see no point in continuing to work on the MR with the MC, or for us to pretend like we are working on the MR at all. I am not going to share you and I am not going to try to "fix" or work on our relationship while you are carrying on a relationship with another man." Further, I am somewhat inclined to remind her "I can't control what you do in your circle, only in mine. Ive told you what I wont allow in my circle. I put my trust in you, (twice, now, at marriage and when you promised no contact) and you promised to respect that boundary, and then you broke that promise. Not sure how I can trust you now." If she for some reason says she is sorry and/or it's over with OM and/or she wants to try again: "If you want back into "my" circle and to be close to me or work on the MR WITH me, I think YOU need to show ME what you can do so that I can trust you and allow you to be that close to me. If YOU want to do this and if you can cut contact and commit 100% working on the MR, then I will give 100% of what I have to work on it as well, but... I cannot make you do anything... what can YOU do, what WILL you do to demonstrate that commitment to me?" And I can think of a few things (immediately cough up the "cheater phone", have an open convo with me about what is going on with the OM, agree to cut contact with the bff, etc.) but it seems to me at that point I should not be imposing "limits" or "rules" on her. The impetus should be on her to prove herself. I am just protecting my boundary.

Idunno, I think I DO get it, i just think my words I type are sometimes inartful.

But i TOTALLY GET boundaries and have read the materials. Multiple times.

Yes, i DO frequently ask for thoughts on particular scenarios but that is more from being over-analytical and over-meticulous (both of which I am often guilty) than not being grounded in the basics.

Oh, speaking of bff. Here is another tactical question. W wants to have her stay overnight at our house as a favor as she is going through town. This is another "W doesn't know that I know" issue, but bff has clearly been enabling the A, and I almost feel like that if this comes to a head, at some point, maybe not during this initial convo, but at some point, maybe next time around, I have to say "i know your bff has been helping you carry on the A... I don't want her staying under my roof. I have a choice as to who I allow access to my house and to get "close" to me and I don't want her staying her under the circumstances." My inclination would be that right now this would be a bridge too far, yes?

[hoosjim]

Thanks, Don. I think i actually get it more than I am conveying. I think where i fall down is 1) inartful wording-- I am not that great a writer and 2) a tendency towards being over-analytical (and sometimes spinning scenarios). I have read and studied the materials and books and continue to do so.

It is, of course, good advice for DB, I would assume, as for any endeavor, to be conversant enough in it to make decisions on the fly and in any eventuality. Perhaps I have been guilty of trying to short-circuit the process by seeking input on multiple eventualities in every circumstance. OTOH, maybe that's how I am learning this stuff. It really does help.

And I dont know where I ever gave the impression that I want a "one shot quick fix". Well, okay, I DO, but who DOESN'T? i DO understand, though, that such a thing does NOT exist in this case. I know very well that I have TONS of work ahead of me, first to navigate through the stormy waters created by my W's A while protecting and improving my own self, and THEN trying to work to piece my own marriage back together, if we even get to that point. That is a long road, for each of those things, and I am going to have to go through both if I am to get to where I want to be with my W. I totally get that. Sorry to everyone if I have been a pain. I really do appreciate all the help and insights.