WW in A; NC achieved(?), Next steps. (2nd thread)

[sandi2]

Okay.....(taking a deep breath).....

For right now, I suggest you not think in terms of confronting her about about contacting OM....since she is not aware that you know. The definition of a confrontation is: a hostile or argumentative meeting or situation between opposing parties. So for right now.....let's not use that term. We are not confronting in this post, okay?

When things feel calm and relaxed between the two of you, and you feel the timing is good....casually open a conversation about the MC. This conversation should not have accusations. I am going to give a little example of a conversation.

YOU: "Wife, I appreciate you going with me to see the MC. I've been doing a lot of thinking about what she said on the importance of transparency, and perhaps you have also. How do you feel about putting some sort of transparency plan in place? Are you willing to be transparent, if you knew it would give me some assurance?" (Wait to see if she comments. If she's unwilling, then you might as well not say anymore about it, b/c transparency requires her full cooperation).

(Continue on) "Without your cooperation, it would be a complete waste of time and effort. I realize it would not prevent you from having a secret affair, if that's what you choose to do. I [i]do feel it would help to regain trust in the M, if there was more transparency...... don't you?" [/i]

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I'm not the best in wording conversations, but here's some things I want YOU to understand about what I've written in that example above. First off, if she's not serious about ending her contact with OM....or even if she's seriously considering it....she's not going to be thrilled about you seeing her messages. Nobody likes for someone looking at their private messages. However, once lies and betrayal have come into the M....this can be an opportunity for the wayward to freely give accountability, if they want to save their M. More than likely, she'll protest and say you just want to control her. But if you don't approach this like you are insisting or demanding that she be transparent, maybe she'll surprise me and go for it. Doesn't mean she'll honor it, but we'll get to that part later.

Secondly, if you start listing all the ways you want to see what she's doing (phone messages, email, FB, etc., etc.)....it will sound like "control issues" to her ears. So, I don't think you should start out with a list of "don'ts". Do you get this? B/c I kept asking you why it was so important to confront her.....and you never gave me a straight answer to my questions! And....this is NOT a confrontation about anything. Do not bring up about her breaking the no contact boundary. Not here. Not during this conversation, b/c we are trying to start a new reference line.

Do not go on & on. If she won't agree to cooperate, then drop it. If she asks what she'd have to do, then suggest what would make you feel more secure. The main goal of this conversation is to have her agreement, or have her refusal to cooperate in transparency. Do not get unreasonable about what you want from her. In past times, we have had some real LBH doozies that gave some whooper ideas of a so-called transparency plan. I thought some of it was ridiculous, and I would never have consented to it. In fact, it took me awhile before I started coming around to the whole transparency idea. After seeing how it helped me when I had decided to end my A.....I realized it was a means to help the WW withdraw from the OM if she really wanted to save her M. But there are many other apps available for cheaters to use, so this method does not prevent her from lying or cheating. Does that make any sense? (I could see why it sounds like I'm contradicting myself). I think in order to be really helpful, the WW has to want to show H her truth. But it won't make her do anything. If she can agree with it, then that's a beginning.

[hoosjim]

Sandi, thanks!!!! That is EXTREMELY helpful. I can tell that you thought a great deal about that and put alot of effort into wording it carefully and precisely (so that my dim/addled brain would understand it.) It is consistent both with what you have said in the past and with what my DB coach has advised.

WRT "confrontation", that is good advice both syntactically and from a mindset standpoint. As to why I would "want" to "confront" her, I honestly, right NOW, do NOT want to "confront" her. I am quite willing to let all that has gone in the past go (particularly since she does not "know I know" and, in theory, her "respect" for me would not be AS damaged by me "letting it pass" as it would be if she "knew i knew" and was choosing to not enforce my boundary) if she is, in fact, willing and ready to give this thing a shot.

I also understand that this would not "prevent" her from doing anything. But maybe, just maybe, it gives her a "lifeline" to help her keep out of trouble. Anecdote in this regard... In car last Saturday, bff calls her and says "hey, can you 'steal away' and give me a few minutes tonight"? W mentions this to me and I say "yeah, you could do that, but why don't we take our time getting home, stop at (a few places I mention) and spend some time together." She agrees, and doesn't object and ultimately doesn't go out to meet up with bff (which has as often as not in recent months also meant a meet up with OM). In recent past she would have been insistent on going to bff, I think. Similarly, Monday she wanted to take a drive out toward our downtown area to "familiarize herself with the streets" (which are a BIT tricky over there but--ahem-- we have lived here for 18 years) because she had to take my son over there for an appointment. No reason for her really to do that except that it is very close to both Om's house and fave hangout, so chance for her to do a "drive-by". I offered to look up address and print her a detailed map and directions and she did not get at all defensive or object. And she has been getting home earlier in general. Small, small, small things, yes. But I truly believe she is trying.

[Tobias]

hoosjim you are in an interesting situation. For me the issue is W wants to be friends with OM. I am afraid to ask sandi2's advice on that as she will likely say that OM needs to be gone from her life. But I wonder if not forcing that until we have met with a MC or until she has been more confident about my changes being real.

I can tell you that confrontation is not a good idea. I kind of pushed it and pushed her away. I can not control how she reacts. I can only control how I act. But I can see your pain and frustration. You want a sign that she is fully committed to you again. Only time will tell that. And I say that as a very very VERY impatient person who still can act on impulse.

[hoosjim]

Also, I am assuming that you would think I would not at all want to bring the OM into this, even obliquely, for instance by saying anything like "I know this is probably hard on you, and based on what we talked about at the MC that ending these types of relationships can be painful and traumatic, so I really appreciate all the things you have done recently to try to focus on "us"(?) I am assuming I would want to leave all "education" and "theory" about difficulty in ending A's to the MC.

On second thought, based on what you said, reading that back to myself seems to be moving towards "confrontation" territory a bit, so my inclination would be NOT to go there. Was just looking for extra ways to recognize/appreciate what she HAS done and empathize with what i know is a difficult undertaking for her.

Thanks again, Sandi!!!

[sandi2]

Also, I am assuming that you would think I would not at all want to bring the OM into this, even obliquely,

I suggest you do not bring up the OM, nor your suspicions. This is not the time to state boundaries. This conversation should be limited to one subject, which is transparency. If she asks why she "has to do it", you tell her it is her decision and you cannot force her. Also, I think it's important that both of you understand that this is not about you policing your wife.

As a WW, she may be very resistant and immediately think that this is a way for you to lord authority over her activity. It is nothing like you are the parent and she's the child that has to ask you if she can do such & such. It is important that both of you understand that transparency is not handing you the reigns to control your W. As I stated in the last post, there have been some betrayed H's who became obsessed in reading all the emails and other messaging. Some H's get caught up in tying to regain or shift the balance of control.......and that is not the purpose of transparency. The whole point of transparency is to assist in healing the broken trust. Do not become obsessed and forget to focus on your own improvements, goals and GAL.

For your own sake, don't go back through all her old messaging. If she is willing to work with you, then start from that day in going forward. I suggest you not access her messaging every day. You may learn how or why it can have an addictive pull, and that would not be healthy, nor promote trust.

Don't constantly check up on her..........and do not drill her about her day or something you've read.

She doesn't need to sit by you while you grade her papers, so to speak. In other words, she won't know when you decide to look. The first few days don't count much, b/c she will be on "good behavior" knowing you are watching.

And all of what I've said about transparency, is as if she is going to agree. If she reacts badly.......then stop where you are and do not insist she has to do it. Without her willingness.....then there is no transparency.

Transparency and "snooping" are not the same, IMHO. Transparency is when a person says you can see, and snooping is when they are not willing......but you look anyway.

If she is not on board, then it's your decision to snoop and track, or not. If she's not willing, or changes passwords........I think that's pretty telling she has something to hide.

After the plan has been in place and she is cooperating, you may need to revisit it later and discuss something that makes you uncomfortable. However, don't do it in the initial discussion about transparency.

Not letting this initial discussion roll over into other concerns, may be challenging for you. I think it is better to take one thing at a time. Right now, it is transparency.......and nothing else.

Don't rush into it before you feel confident that you thoroughly understand the purpose and how it works.

[hoosjim]

Sandi, you were right. Darnit you were right.

Wayward as the day is long.

She balked (well, evaded would be a better descriptor) at the transparency discussion. So I didn't push it. Then, last night, she meets me at happy hour and works into the conversation that she has deleted FB from her phone. Okay, i don't question her about that because we were having a nice time and wasn't really sure where to go with it. Today, during a quiet moment I ask her if she did that because of our conversation and she says "yes, partly", but then she had to go before we could discuss more. Of course later, on my own FB feed, which I leave running pretty much constantly on one of my three screens during the day, i see her pop up as "active" on the messenger/chat screen several times (apparently she doesn't know about this feature since she does not use FB on a PC. So, how is she on FB if she uninstalled and cant use her work PC? Easy, that great gesture she made by returning the phone, either she didn't actually and hid it well or she procured another one. I went ahead and decided to "snoop" for the first time in a couple of weeks. She drove out after work to the OM's fave bar. Didn't go in, but called him on NOT her regular phone. Tearful conversation... "It took me over an hour to get her, I want to come in and see you so bad, but I know then i wont want to leave. I want to run away with you etc. etc, but cant right now" Alot of other stuff-- think she may be toying with idea of trying to see him tomorrow. My sense--on actually pretty good intel (she just hasn't had the opportunity--no real snooping involved) is that she has been "no seeing" if obviously not "no contacting" the past week and a half to two weeks, but she is NOT happy about it and really thinks this is the guy for her. She felt trapped/smothered day after counselling a week ago and I overheard her murmur in half-frantic voice "I cant stand this." Possibly doing it just as show, but sounds like she is maybe trying a little bit, at least on the seeing part. Maybe closure contact? I don't know. But she clearly hasn't and doesnt intend to cut the entire affair off at the knees.

I am NOT going to "charge at her like a bull" but... I am really not sure which course to take, here. She still does not know that I know about her violation of my boundaries and the extent to which she has. I could take action to protect those... as discussed previously: not revealing what I know or how i know, calmly, rationally, stating my position "we need to make arrangements to go our separate ways, starting immediately", I think "she should leave the marital home" etc etc.

I could also just opt to ride it out, hoping against hope that she is starting to turn, that she is struggling to break free of the affair and that she ultimately will with the help of the MC. I honestly in my heart do not believe this latter course of action will work. I have allowed a simple texting relationship to become a full blown romantic infatuation by my inaction and, indeed, by my early actions which could probably even be seen as appeasement. i could have been much more effective stating my boundary and then enforcing it had I done so way back in january when this was first discovered. As it is,I let it fester and grow for five more months, now, and she is clearly, clearly (and I can see it now from both ends of the timeline) more strongly involved with the guy than she was in January. I have faith that God is in favor of marriage and the marital relationship, and that he wants good things ultimately for all his people, but... He gave us free will, and right now my wife's will is twisted against me (yes, yes, through my own doing and my ownneglect which i cannot undo now) and toward the OM.

I feel like the only rational course here is to sleep on it. Cool down until I know I can be completely rational, and then tell her we're through. We have had a good few weeks, with lots of talking, and a few good times out, and she has had time to notice my changes,
so maybe there's some hope. Not much, but some, God willing. I just feel that she is in a fog right now... the OM is her "soulmate"
and the only way to jar her out of it is if she thinks she might lose her family.

I know what I need to do on either course. I just don't know which course to choose.

And yes, I would still take her back, if she asked me to and seemed sincere, even with all I have heard. I just. I wish God would tell
me which way he wants me to turn, here.

My heart is just breaking all over again.

[sandi2]

She drove out after work to the OM's fave bar. Didn't go in, but called him on NOT her regular phone. Tearful conversation... "It took me over an hour to get her, I want to come in and see you so bad, but I know then i wont want to leave. I want to run away with you etc. etc, but cant right now" Alot of other stuff-- think she may be toying with idea of trying to see him tomorrow.

She is saying all of that stuff to get a reaction from the OM! She wants to see if he will be her knight in shining armor, who will whisk her away and ride off into the sunset. The best thing that could happen for her is if OM did not respond favorably. She's laying it on pretty thick, so he may start backing away.

You wanted to know what I recommended, but you started jumping to getting a divorce as soon as she didn't agree to transparency. There is something else you can do that can be very effective.

I assume you explained the purpose of transparency, and she refused. IMHO,she should get the message that that's not okay. You won't continue to do all the heavy lifting while she cheats on you. She not only refused to cooperate, but she went straight to contact OM. Therefore, it is my opinion that she should see things have taken a shift. I'm not suggesting you talk to her about it. I'm suggesting the next step should be to drop the rope.

What I am about to tell you will sound opposite to everything else you were previously told. That's b/c you are going to stop doing all those things to save the MR. Stop pursuing her. Stop doing things to show her you care. Stop being there for her. Stop spending time with her. Stop trying to have conversations with her. Stop all the stuff you were doing to get her back. Stop doing all that work that keeps you tied at home. Don't act mad or hurt at her. Just don't show any emotion, one way or the other. You don't have to prove anything, least of all how much you want to keep her. Don't worry if you appear mad or happy. Just let it go. She knows she is playing you!

If she starts putting on this little act of innocence and begins to question why you are being cold (or whatever), you can bet it's b/c she knows you are on to her affair. She will be determining if you are no longer interested in having a relationship with a liar and cheater, or if you still want to save the M. Let me inject something right here. Do not repeat how you don't want a divorce, and how you are willing to work on the M. Understand? Do not be an open book for her and replay everything again.

If she should ask you anything about your actions or thoughts toward the MR, your only response should be your boundary. If she starts playing games and ask if you think she's contacting OM, or whatever..........you can tell her you know she has lied to you about contacting OM. That's all you have to say. Do not give her details, b/c she will twist it around to where you are in the defensive box. Even if she starts crying and admits it, do not immediately comfort her and tell her you forgive her...........if that's your normal thing to do. Stand tall and don't waiver. Anyone can cry and say they didn't mean to hurt you, etc., etc. What you want to hear (without wringing it out of her) is that the affair is over and she is committed to doing the work to save the M. If you have to prompt her on what to say.......then I would doubt her intentions. Btw, there is no closure contact.

When you really drop the rope......she'll notice your interest in her is gone. In many cases with a WW, it will immediately put her in pursuit mode. And this can go a couple of ways......depending on the timing of everything else around her. 1) If she thinks she is really losing you, it could open her eyes and drop OM and work on her M.
2) She will try various things to test where you stand emotionally with her. We call it "temperature testing", b/c the response you have to her, tells her how easily she can emotionally manipulate you.

Dropping the rope is kind of like the last option in the last resort technique. It's effectiveness is based on the WW believing she's really losing you. I realize that may sound like a strange statement, considering her expressions of having no feelings left and being in an A, etc. But she has not been in the position of losing you. Both of you have seen this situation as you losing her. As long as she believes that dynamic, the less likely she will desire to work at keeping her M. The one thing the WW doesn't expect, is that her H will lose interest in her. Even though she may talk differently, she still doesn't expect to be the loser.

Anyway, I would choose to drop the rope, before deciding to divorce. I would even physically separate before divorcing.

[hoosjim]

Sandi, thanks. This seems like good advice, and pretty much straight out of the DB handbook.

My one question would be, in my sitch how do I handle the currently ongoing MC. We currently have two more sessions scheduled, this coming Friday and then two Fridays hence. Those have to be addressed. Dont think I can just ignore. Should I wait for her to mention them as they get closer and then be the same sort of casual/unemotional and say something like "really?" "Under the circumstances?" At any rate, assuming I should be cancelling them because no point in really trying to work on the MR while W is in the depths of an affair and not leveling with the MC.

Thanks again.


Also, and not saying I want to move toward divorce here, but once I have said "I know you're lying and contacting the OM" shouldn't I be at least insisting that she think about moving out, or is that the more extreme endgame if rope dropping doesn't produce results. (And I also remind you that my wife comes from an EXTREMELY neglectful situation, like 8-9 years, and has a lot of built up mistrust, etc. of me-- NO feelings of attraction near as I can tell). Not excusing her, just saying I am not so confident that she will start pursuing if I go back to ignoring her. It's not like I have been strongly pursuing her the past 4-5 months as is. Wouldn't some fear/concern about losing me AND the family and all that goes with it be some good medicine as well, or is that what the rope-dropping is supposed to convey? I wasn't saying I needed/wanted to move straight for divorce, though i am willing if it comes to that. Just seems like that possibility is one she should be contemplating, because i dont think she really is.



And, two last small questions related to conversations that might come up:

1) Related to the MC a bit-- We had had some exercises to do, things to discuss. If W brings these up assume my response is "not now" or "not interested."

2) We have a couple different family functions (one a vacation) coming up. The one was to be a beach getaway for the four of us (us and two kids). I dont know that I want to be participating in that sort of thing with her under the current circumstances. Do I look at cancelling that? Wiat for her to bring it up and say "I think we shouldn't go?" Or, just go ahead and go and play it cool/distant/rope-dropped the whole time? Hard to think about continnuing to prep for that

And the final knife twist on that last sitch (family beach vacation, scheduled for July 4th weekend) is that we were blowing off a bigger family lake-house vacation that my Dad puts on annually for mine and my two step-brothers' families every year at that same time. We were going to blow off my Dad, go away on our own, just the four of us (me, W, two sons) because we thought we needed some "core family" time together. If we CANCELLED that, now, I would of course want to go to my Dad's shindig for the week. And not sure I would want to tell W she was welcome, there, given the circumstances. (Though my Dad and stepmother and two stepbrothers do not even currently know W and I are having any problems... just that things are "hectic" and "stressful" right now for us as a family.) We could always go and just say she couldn't get off work or something. At any rate, really not looking forward to the family beach vacation under the circumstances.

[sandi2]

My one question would be, in my sitch how do I handle the currently ongoing MC.

Well, that is up to you. I just didn't want you jumping from the point of her not agreeing to transparency to filing for a divorce.

Should I wait for her to mention them as they get closer and then be the same sort of casual/unemotional and say something like "really?" "Under the circumstances?" At any rate, assuming I should be cancelling them because no point in really trying to work on the MR while W is in the depths of an affair and not leveling with the MC.

I think you have to make a decision based on what you can live with. If you want to see where the MC takes you, then go with it. Don't drop the rope if it b/c you are itching to let your W know that you know about the contacts with OM. Let me explain what I mean. IMHO, the H needs to know in advance what he will do once the cat is out of the bag. There should be a narrow time period between the point she learns that you know.....and what you intend to do. If she sees you pursuing a relationship with her......while knowing she is sneaking around and contacting OM, it demishes the success rate in attracting her back.

Also, and not saying I want to move toward divorce here, but once I have said "I know you're lying and contacting the OM" shouldn't I be at least insisting that she think about moving out, or is that the more extreme endgame if rope dropping doesn't produce results. (And I also remind you that my wife comes from an EXTREMELY neglectful situation, like 8-9 years, and has a lot of built up mistrust, etc. of me-- NO feelings of attraction near as I can tell). Not excusing her, just saying I am not so confident that she will start pursuing if I go back to ignoring her. It's not like I have been strongly pursuing her the past 4-5 months as is. Wouldn't some fear/concern about losing me AND the family and all that goes with it be some good medicine as well, or is that what the rope-dropping is supposed to convey? I wasn't saying I needed/wanted to move straight for divorce, though i am willing if it comes to that. Just seems like that possibility is one she should be contemplating, because i dont think she really is.

Again, when reading your post, it sounds as if you want to play tough guy one minute, but then counteract with all the reasons you shouldn't. I think you have to iron out that for yourself.

The MC assignments? You decide. Family vacation? Here's the thing. I don't think you can have it both ways. It appears, to me, that you want some of the tougher love advice mixed together with the MC's. Honestly, until we know more about the direction of the MC........I think mixing what I suggest with that of the MC, may not be the wisest choice. I've asked more than once about the assisnments and received no answer. Also, you've only had one coaching session. I would think now is the time to get it.

Not knowing your own plan or how you feel is the best path to take, will cause you to ask questions about all these other things, and feel that you need to be spoon fed. It keeps you in a state of confusion. It is your life and your decision. I'm not trying to press you to choose one over the other, but I do think you need to talk to your DB coach and then decide.

[hoosjim]

i think you vastly underestimate my commitment/toughness. It's not that I want it both ways or that I am vacillating, but rather that there are particular circumstances that I want to make sure I know how to navigate-- IOW that I have anticipated all evantualities/events and have "a plan". You will notice that I was fairly certain that i should both a) not be planning on continuing the MC and b) not go through with the family vacation if I, as I am planning to do, drop the rope. I just want to confirm my thinking is accurate. I have read and reread all the WW threads and know darn well that pretending to engage in "happy family" acitivities is not the way to a WW's heart. Just trying to figure out specifically how I will approach those events/eventualities so i don't botch them when the moment arrives.

And isn't it normal to have doubts that distancing/dropping-the-rope will draw to you a woman who has been driven FROM you by years of neglect? Not excusing her behavior AT ALL, just acknowledging the counterintuitiveness of it, which you yourself grant. I just feel particularly beleagueured because the length of my own wife's neglect was SO long. I would love to hear from someone out there who has come back from having a WW with such a lengthy period of resentment to build up. Don't get me wrong-- I think this is probalby the only way... playing nice and loving, tolerant, etc., has not turned the trick here.

BTW, the dropping the rope is already working. She has been following ME around the house, and I've only been at this for a day and a half. She's said a couple of times "What are you doing?" and "You're acting mysterious."