WW in A; NC achieved(?), Next steps. (2nd thread)

[hoosjim]

Further update:

We are, apparently, back in some sort of "No Contact" status with the OM. I posted a couple days ago, half jokingly, that "maybe my W will return the 'cheater phone' when she visits her bff today" (the bff is the one who got it for her originally) and, apparently, that is what happened. Unless she is doing a REALLY good job of hiding it, and she is certainly not behaving like she had been (purse guarding, etc.) when she definitively had the extra phone. She also, as mentioned earlier, passed on an easy opportunity to go see the OM this weekend. Finally, in our talk last night, she told me she "still thinks about him" but "is not talking to him" (and we didn't go into it much more than that.) OTOH, I have no way of knowing if the OM is calling her at work (as he has in the past) and I have no idea how much contact they are having on Facebook, where I am certain, at least as of last week when she showed me her FB page not realizing it listed her "frequent contacts" where the OM was tops on the list, they were keeping in contact or at least that she was following him closely-- and she is still a little protective of her phone when she is Facebooking, which makes me suspicious. (As a reminder, we do not have any type of "transparency" agreement or understanding concerning social media and phones). Finally, for color (and this came up again last night as well) she feels as if "all of the problems we have were there before the OM entered the picture" and I know from hearing her talk previously that she thinks or at least thought that she can "separate the two" -- meaning our MR and the OM feelings--"in her mind." But, anyway, in sum, it APPEARS as if she is at least making some sort of attempt at "No Contact" or at least creating the appearance that she is-- at any rate she appears to be practicing "no seeing in person" and "no talking". (again, unless they are talking at work.)

Her general demeanor is that "it is really good we are talking... probably more than we ever have..." but that "the spark is not there" and she feels more like "we are building a friendship and is not sure the romance will ever come back" although she HAS apparently committed at least some time and effort to "finding out if it CAN come back" by going to MC. OTOH, she woke up Saturday (day after counselling) and told me later she felt "trapped and smothered", though she got over it later and we went out as I talked about earlier and had a really good time. She is noticing my 180s and GALs (the most puzzling one is that I am going to be getting a tattoo-- something I've secretly always wanted and now am doing as a kind of YOLO thing but which I thought she might actually NOT like but she seems FASCINATED by it, keeps talking and asking about it and said, with this wonderous look in her eye when I told her i really liked the look of the temp one and wanted a real one: "Who ARE you?")

So, how do you think I should play all this? Am I truly, in your opinion, at "no contact"? If so, should I try to insist on FB/phone transparency, too (and remember I have a basis to bring this up that doesn't involve snooping) and at what point and in what manner or would that, in your opinion, risk pushing her away? She doesn't seem to be in the full-on depression/withdrawal I would expect if she had truly cut full contact, and I am tempted to snoop a bit later in the week just to take the temp of things. My inclination is to keep "talking" to her, letting her take the lead for the most part on subject matter, to continue my independent "GAL" and 180s, but also to start finding ways to create some social time between us like when we went out Saturday. Oh, and to be "spontaneous" about it since she has said she values that.

I still in a bit of limbo as her pattern doesn't seem to fit the WW norm in all respects, and I am not at all certain if there is full "no contact" with the OM (his birthday is coming up so that will be a test, I think), so I am never 100% sure how to play things when approaching her. Obviously, I want to continue all the things I am doing for ME and to improve MYSELF, but... still some uncertainty here.

Thoughts welcome.

[sandi2]

Also C basically said she would be "going there" at some point on Friday, that it would involve some sort of "no contact" promise (we know how THAT's going already) and recommendation for transparency, that SOME degree of snooping/monitoring by me would probably to be expected under the circumstances but that if any "contact" issues came up that she usually advised her patients/clients to bring them to her first rather than slug it out on their own.

What about all of this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^? Did the counselor cover the areas you initially were led to believe?

I am also in the position now of being counseled that we SHOULD find time together, have some dates, and try to reconnect (i.e. "pursuing") but at a time (now) when any "distancing" I have done has not yet had a chance to "draw her towards me."

Has your W committed to reconciling the MR, or is it more like she wants to just see if her feelings change? B/c if she waits for YOU to change her feelings, while she does nothing....it will not render very successful results.

So i truly believe she knows and understands that the A is wrong and hurtful-- even as she knows that at least part of her WANTS the A/OM. Why did she admit to "there was a kiss"? No reason for her to do that, since she is still in denial mode.

Of course she understands her actions are wrong and hurtful. I have explained why she would admit to a kiss, but not admit to more. This is not uncommon for people suspected in an affair. They may admit to a level below the true extent of their actions.

She also has not demonstrated any of the manipulative mindset that WWs supposedly have-- she is not taking advantage of my increased usefulness around the house, etc, is still pulling her own weight, and is not expecting me to cater to her.

Neither did I. However, from what I have learned, most WW's do.

So, idunno. It seems like I in some ways I am pretty far off the tracks, here, DB-wise, and putting all of my eggs in the faith/MC basket.

I hear some confusion in your post, and a lot of what I think is you trying to convince us, and mostly yourself, that your W is not as bad as the WW example I often describe. Plus, you said you feel you are way off the DB reservation. Not sure why you think it doesn't go hand & hand with faith. Confusion can happen when newcomers are getting different advice some various sources at one time. You don't know which way to go.

That's a decision you will need to make. Have you talked to your DB coach since the MC session?

[hoosjim]

Hey, Sandi, thanks.

Some of what you ask is covered a bit (or at least lent context) by my most recent post/response, which you might have missed as it rolled over to page 8. I would like you to read that to see what you think, but, as to your questions:

1) and 2) The counselor did cover the A somewhat, although we got off into alot of pretty heavy stuff early that just involved my W and my past and that took ALOT of time/tears/etc. On the A itself, she did stress that it needed to end, that there needed to be no contact, and that there needed to be absolute honesty between W and me. My W did, as i said, admit to some new stuff ("a kiss") that hadn't been admitted before, but also downplayed it in some ways (there were pretty explicit phone conversations that, IMHO, unless they actually slept together, were the most egregious offenses and these were not mentioned other than her saying "we probably said and texted some things that we shouldn't have."). MC asked how I felt about knowing they "had kissed" to which I responded "of course it hurts, although I did pretty much already know that the relationship was more involved than my W had been telling me." My W also indicated that "the (cheating) phone has gone back" and that she and OM are "not talking". The former was not true at the time of the MC session as she had, as I mentioned, re-acquired the phone and did not return it to her bff until this past Sunday (I think-- either that or she is really being uncharacteristically secretive and cautious with it), and the latter is, it appears, technically "true" even as I STRONGLY suspect she is at least following him on FB and possibly/probably even messaging him. I had asked you about that angle (FB and confronting her about it since my knowledge of that did not involve "snooping") in my most recent post. I do feel like she has not completely "cut the cord" and is more like "putting the OM/A on hold until we see about this counselling angle" rather than "saying goodbye to the OM/A and working full-bore on the MR. She is definitely closer to "I want to find out if I can feel that way again about you" or "I want to find out if it is possible to rekindle the marriage" as opposed to "we are going to work on this MR and do everything we can to see if we can fix it." Feel like she can't be the latter unless she completely cuts the cord with the OM and leaves the A behind. Not quite sure how she gets there, though. I could push her on the FB angle and discuss again how I want us to focus on us, but not sure how receptive she would be to that. I think cutting the FB cord would definitely help, as being a FB friend with this guy she is constantly seeing all the stuff he is posting (he is very active on FB) and it sort of keeps her "in contact" and thinking about him. She might rebel at that and resume other contact, though. Really eager to hear your thoughts on this particular angle.

3) Dont know that I am trying to justify her or minimize her actions so much as understand them. Based on everything she says and everything I know, I am pretty positive there has been no sex between her and OM (though they sure as heck have talked about it.) Don't know why this should make a difference to me, but it does. This is a woman with a strong sex drive and for her to still not do that with someone she is attracted to after already "crossing the line" so to speak tells me that there is something there-- loyalty to me, to the family/kids (most likely), or even to her faith-- that is still keeping for going all the way over. Don't know if that should be cause for hope or not. She just doesn't seem to have that fully "cold" WW heart, even as she is clearly wayward in some sense. The biggest overlay is, I believe, what you would call "resentment" towards how I treated/neglected her all those years. And it was a LOONG time. THAT is going to be the biggest hurdle to overcome. She says "those feelings (intimacy/romantic love) have been gone a long, long time" and I believe her completely. But the problem is not just the absence of romantic love, but rather the negative feelings towards me (and we discussed this in the MC a bit and also afterwards) that put me actually in a LESS favorable position towards her than even some random guy on the street. Sometimes when I compliment her, or when I reach out to touch her physically, there is something there she finds (not always, but sometimes) actually "repulsive" or perhaps "repulsing" for lack of a better term. She noted that "he's a completely different guy, now, but I am not interested in that guy, either." (Ugh.)

4) I am actually pretty sure in the larger picture where I am going with this. I am committed to the MC, now. Even moreso now since she seems to be making somewhat of an effort to limit/cut contact with the OM. I am taking those efforts as a sign from God that I am doing the right thing and that I and the DB coach and you (Sandi) were right that I should hold off and not have a "show-down" confrontation with her over her continued contact with OM. WRT "no contact", we appear to be moving in the right direction, but I would like to see her agree to device/internet/social-media transparency on that (which is something I had been hoping the MC would directly address but did not) and particularly for her to cut FB contact with OM. So, in that vein, I am wondering how to approach that angle. I had suggested it to her previously several weeks back at our first "NC" conversation but had not "insisted" on it. Her take had been "what's the point when I could just open up new accounts?" I feel like I could bring it up without raising snooping fears since she SHOWED ME her FB page with the OM's name at the top (she apparently did not realize this), but also fear it could poison the waters and/or set us back. My inclination is to do it anyway in the spirit of "full honesty" that the MC advised, and to do it "offline", between us, as I don't necessarily want to "call her out" in front of the MC and threaten the "safety" of that forum. My approach would be simply to say "look, I really really appreciate what you are doing here, going to counselling, participating in it, and making the effort to see where we can go, and also the efforts you have taken to cut contact with the OM. HOWEVER... I know from you showing me your FB page last week that he is still a significant presence in your on-line world, and that is something I am not comfortable with and which makes it harder for me to trust you and to fully engage in this process we are going through now."

On the "interactions" front, she has said it is hard for her and sometimes she feels "Trapped/smothered" by the situation, but also that she does have fun when we spend time together or go out, even when she is hesitant at first. She agrees that there will be no "rekindling" as long as the two of us together are all "sad/serious talks" and all of her "fun fun times" are with other friends. We have discussed, both at MC and on our own since then, what she wants and feels comfortable with... Me saying I am not always sure what I should and shouldn't be asking her to do based on things she has said about how she feels about me, and her responding that she wants me to feel free to ask her (Example of this was her wanting to dance on Saturday night when we were out and me not asking her-- she said she was not sure how she would have felt about it but she was open to doing it and that I should ask her in those situations.) NOTE: I have projected alot of confidence in these types of situations in the past and still do-- I told her upfront I had wanted to ask her but did not out of respect for her space and what she had said in the MC sessions about being hesitant sometimes about "touch" with me. At any rate, it seems like maybe she wants to be pursued here a little bit, and MC seems to be preaching that we find time to spend together both a) socially/fun AND b) "working dates" to discuss the marital issues. Since we are doing the MC for at least the next few weeks, I am also going to do these things. Since she is not, at the moment, "attracted" to me, however, I am going to have to try to balance that with my own GAL activities and try to, as much as possible, inject that element of mystery to what I am doing at times. Will be a hard balancing act.

I very much AM still committed to the faith-based angle on this. Very clearly a LOT of damage has been done, and much of it by me, to my MR with my W, through years of neglect, etc. I know that I am not going to change her mind and that I am not going to be able to "talk her into loving/wanting me." It's going to be up to God to soften her heart in that direction and then for her to make the choice to move back towards me. That is out of my hands. Going to have to try to keep on working on my own happiness in the interim to make sure that I am a more attractive "destination."

Would appreciate any other thoughts you have, especially after reading this as well as my other more recent post from today.

[sandi2]

Finally, for color (and this came up again last night as well) she feels as if "all of the problems we have were there before the OM entered the picture" and I know from hearing her talk previously that she thinks or at least thought that she can "separate the two" -- meaning our MR and the OM feelings--"in her mind."

I felt the same way as your W. I even wanted to blame my A on my H, b/c I felt I would have never turned to another man if my H had put forth effort in filling my emotional needs.

I've been reading posts from LBH's for quite a while, and from what I see, they tend to focus on the W's affair as being the main issue in their problems........while the W brings up old issues (resentments) from their marital history, and/or claims her feelings of love is gone.

she is still a little protective of her phone when she is Facebooking, which makes me suspicious. (As a reminder, we do not have any type of "transparency" agreement or understanding concerning social media and phones).

If the MC did not discuss with your W about how any type of an affair is additive, then it's like she's going into battle unarmed. She needs the information, so she'll understand why she has such strong urges to contact OM. Otherwise, she won't stick to any type of transparency. When a woman is battling those desires and overcomes it, she will want support, and will need to cooperate in the transparency plan as her backup for a job well done. She's like the kid who wants to show a good report card, b/c she's earned it. When there's nothing to hide, why would she care if her H looks at her phone?

She doesn't seem to be in the full-on depression/withdrawal I would expect if she had truly cut full contact,

The degree of depression certainly varies with the individual. I've lost track of how many days it's been since you decided she supposedly ended contact with OM. (And, you really are just hoping that she isn't talking to him, b/c you have nothing solid). Here's the thing, if she rocks along without ever showing a few signs of depression.....I would strongly suspect she's in contact with him.

OTOH, she woke up Saturday (day after counselling) and told me later she felt "trapped and smothered", though she got over it later and we went out as I talked about earlier and had a really good time.

Feeling trapped and smothered can be a sign of initial withdrawing. This is a prime example of one of those times that will test her. This is when she'll want to look at FB to see his picture or post, check her phone messages, or call her BFF, etc., to get her through this suffocating period. Unless she has been told what to expect while going through this journey......how could she be expected to know what to do when the experiences hit her? Since she is working from emotions, the first thing a WW would incorrectly think is that she must really love OM b/c she has that urgency to hear from him. Actually, she wants to feed the "high" she gets from it. Her thoughts are about him, and she is tempted to drive by the bar or whatever. So.....there needs to be some type of support system that not only informs her what to expect and what to do, but support and encourages her to stay focused in the right direction.

So, how do you think I should play all this? Am I truly, in your opinion, at "no contact"? If so, should I try to insist on FB/phone transparency, too (and remember I have a basis to bring this up that doesn't involve snooping) and at what point and in what manner or would that, in your opinion, risk pushing her away?

Well, I still don't know your plan. Why didn't you discuss transparency with the MC? What was the blueprint she gave you, other than spending more time together and dating? That advice, alone, is not very sufficient when one spouse is in an active affair......or coming out of an affair. B/c the spouse coming out of an affair needs a heck of alot more instructions other than spending more time with her husband! Plus, the betrayed spouse needs to know what to expect in the coming days.

Her feelings for OM are probably not going to suddenly come to an abrupt halt and loving feelings for her H immediately flood her soul. It's usually not that simple or that fast. She has to get the OM out of her head completely, before she can feel true marital love (respect/attraction/desire) for her H. It's like cleaning out a water well. She will have to remove all the crud that causes the contamination, before the well can fill with clean water.

If she doesn't know that that's ^^^^ the process she will need to go through, in order for her "feelings" to change toward you......then what happens? It's not a doable plan for her to say she wants to just see if her feelings change. If they change, it will be the result of hard work......from both of you, but in different ways.

I still in a bit of limbo as her pattern doesn't seem to fit the WW norm in all respects,

Well, I don't know what more it would take for you to believe it.....but don't let this be your stumbling block. Neither, should your doubt about her waywardness be used as your excuse to take a softer or easier approach at this point in the journey. And the reason I am saying this to you, is b/c you are not the first H to say these things when faced with making a difficult decision in what plan to follow. Some H's say they don't think their W is really a WW.
Every individual wayward wife is not cut with the same cookie cutter. However, she will have enough similar characteristics, that sets her apart from the WAW....IMHO. As far as I can determine, waywardness begins with the same foundation of disrespect & resentment, which finally goes to rebellion. There are actions in your W that were not in me, but that doesn't mean I wasn't wayward. See what I mean?

If I could talk to her, I would explain how she isn't required to have the right feelings, in order to do the right thing. The feelings will eventually follow the actions. Which of course, is not what a WW wants to hear, b/c she operates from a position of emotion. To her, everything is about her feelings. Her most difficult part is to seriously kill the affair dead in its tracks. No last meeting for "closure", and no tapering off. She has to be willing to delete and block everything linked to him. She would need to know to expect some feelings of frustration, discontent, blue/down, discouraged, etc.......but this is not a sign that the M won't work. It will be her emotionally withdrawing from the "high" she got from the affair. These negative feelings will pass. It may take a few weeks, or longer....but if she won't contact or receive contacts from the OM....these feelings will stop. This is a process of getting the contamination out, so her loving feelings can return.

This post is too long, so I won't continue (in this post) with the steps to take in recovering from a WW in an affair. And I won't push you to do what I suggest, if I know you don't want it.

[hoosjim]

Sandi--

This is all really, really helpful stuff. And, yes, i do want to do whatever needs to be done (despite the length of your posts)

If the MC did not discuss with your W about how any type of an affair is additive, then it's like she's going into battle unarmed. She needs the information, so she'll understand why she has such strong urges to contact OM. Otherwise, she won't stick to any type of transparency. When a woman is battling those desires and overcomes it, she will want support, and will need to cooperate in the transparency plan as her backup for a job well done.

We DID actually discuss the addictive nature of these things at the MC session, and even I chimed in with how intoxicating it had been for me to experience women coming up to me and even just flirting on the couple of occasions it has happened when I have been out with friends since BD. MC also discussed the importance of transparency but, disappointingly, did not have us implement any sort of plan. She(MC) DID indicate we could call her any time in interim if issues cropped up AND she had told me previously (in our one on one session) that she usually preferred, and was open to, clients coming to her directly when "NC" issues arose rather than slugging it out on their own. for my part, i DO feel strongly that we should seize the bull by the horns, here, since my W is showing SOME willingness to play along. I am just not sure if I should a) bring it up with W and just hash it out (it was her slip up, after all, that revealed the contact), b) bring it up with W and say "why don't we call the MC and talk about this with her or c) call the MC on my own and see what she advises-- though i hesitate to do this latter one now that we are actually in couples counselling. To clarify from earlier, I have no compunction about confronting W on any of this and, if will recall, was fully willing to separate if it came to that and she refused to end contact. Right NOW, it appears she may be willing to try this, so I don't necessarily want to drop the hammer on her but i DO think something like the softer approach I suggested in my prior post might be appropriate (I.e. "I really appreciate what you are doing here, but I keep thinking about all we talked about with the counselor and it is going to be really hard for me rebuild trust with you if I keep wondering about the FB contact that I saw was going on when you showed me your page last week. Maybe we should call the counselor and talk about this some.") I think this would be difficult and, based on her past pattern, she might "draw away" from me some based on my insistence on addressing this, BUT... since it is not a snooping/prying thing, I think we and the counselling process could ultimately survive it IF the MC handled it adroitly (which I think she would based on previous discussions.) Maybe even suggest to her that this is something she could work a bit directly with the MC first if she were uncomfortable talking about it to me? I really feel that involving the MC in some respect would be beneficial as she is a "neutral third party" here.Does any of that sound reasonable to you? (I cannot talk to me DB coach until next week at this point, and this is something I feel should be addressed before that. Like, right away before she "slips" too much.)

The degree of depression certainly varies with the individual. I've lost track of how many days it's been since you decided she supposedly ended contact with OM. (And, you really are just hoping that she isn't talking to him, b/c you have nothing solid). Here's the thing, if she rocks along without ever showing a few signs of depression.....I would strongly suspect she's in contact with him.

She initially agreed to NC on 5/3. She kept that, as far as I know unless FB/office calls played a role, until 5/12. I actually believe she was doing it as she was surly, moody, left the marital bedroom for several days, and then did a couple of drive bys of the OMs bar, not going in, which I can't see her doing unless she was out of contact. That all fell apart on 5/12 during the drunken evening with me, her, and bff, and was followed by two weeks of contact of various sorts, including at least four "meet ups". More recently, she appears to have somewhat recommitted as of 6/1, under the parameters that I have described to you in my most recent posts. FWIW. So, we are roughly 9 days removed from her last known "in person" contact (pretty confident on this one) and two days removed from her apparent returning of the "cheater phone".

I have a very strong feeling that God is guiding me and others in this thing. Things keep getting moved around on our schedules that seem to open up things at the right time. Right now, you seem very engage on this (thank you) and I could really use your insight on how you think I should proceed with pushing (or not pushing) further transparency/no-contact issue with my W (and remember that we are still in a place where my last statement to her on this is "I wont share you and won't live in an open marriage and wont continue as is while you are in contact with OM"-- if/when I bring this up with her, she will then "know that I know" that she has been in contact with him. Right now she doesn't know that. My plan would be to find a nice, quiet time in the next evening or two to broach this with her in the manner I suggested above and in my prior post and suggest taking it to the MC. If i just bring it up "between us", she could refuse and it could result in an unresolvable disagreement where I would have to "crap or get off the pot" on my boundary. If we take it to the MC, we get a) a "neutral third party" she might be more likely to listen to and b) a recommendation, presumably, that she cut contact which, if she refuses, gives me some more cover to say "we're not ready for this right now, maybe we need to think about looking at how we would go our separate ways" (which I am quite willing to do.-- but I think she would ultimately agree, perhaps grudgingly, with what MC suggested.) Only other question would be whether or not I should go to the MC on my own, first, to give her a heads up (to which I think MC would be receptive as she has counseled us both individually previously and with me has discussed the OM/A and "no contact" dynamics, but with which I am not entirely comfortable on priniciple.

Whaddaya think? (ANd, again, given the "fulcrum moment" i appear to be in here, I really, really, really appreciate your responsiveness.

Thanks!!!!!

[sandi2]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems you want me to tell you what to do......but you want to follow the MC. Not sure I can, b/c the MC skirted around the fact your W is cheating. Other than advising to spend more time together and date......I have not seen any solid blueprint from her. And how long before the next scheduled session?

I hope you understand that I write with the purpose of telling (mostly H's) what he is dealing with in the WW, and what works and doesn't work from the standpoint of the WW. I have zero confidence in bubblegum counseling that's handed out to couples with a wayward wife. Let me remind you that EVERYTHING in this relationship with your WW is tied to her current lack of respect for you as a man. Therefore, nothing will work until she respects you as a man (first) and as her H. She can play the game and say things to "indicate"........till the end of time. But it will not change her heart, and desire you as her husband. There are many women filling the role of W, but true attraction and desire are absent in their hearts. At best, they are companions.......or as most people call it.....friends. I said all of that b/c I want you to measure the advice you are given, and the actions you decide to take, by what kind of man you want her to see in you. ( Don't confuse this with what you've been told about making improvements for yourself, etc.). Along with the advice given, ask yourself if the actions would affect your dignity, self esteem, or compromise your integrity.

We can help with the woman's point of view, and I may be able to help from the WW POV. The guys can help from their experiences. Ultimately, the actions will be your decision. This is your life.........your MR........and your W. Although you may not understand a lot about her current mindset......you have a history together and know her. Okay?

DO feel strongly that we should seize the bull by the horns, here, since my W is showing SOME willingness to play along. I am just not sure if I should a) bring it up with W and just hash it out (it was her slip up, after all, that revealed the contact), b) bring it up with W and say "why don't we call the MC and talk about this with her or c) call the MC on my own and see what she advises-- though i hesitate to do this latter one now that we are actually in couples counselling

A) Bring what up? The affair she doesn't know you know about? The lie about her no contact? But would this not be part of that toughness you wanted to avoid?
B). Why call the MC to talk about it, when you didn't talk about it in the sessions?
C). So you want to confront your WW, and then call up the MC to talk to her?

Here's what I'm seeing. You get advice from one source and you are all gung ho to follow it. Then you get somewhat different advice and you are gung ho with it. However, you can't seem to let go of the idea of confronting her! I would have to go back and read the first few posts of advice, but I'm thinking confrontation may have been suggested right off the bat. And......in spite of what else you hear, you go right back to confronting her. You may not use the word "confrontation", but I assume that's what you mean by "bringing it up". You want to confront her about contacting the OM. Now understand something here.......I am not debating your boundary statement, although I didn't particularly like the fashion you used. I am not debating the fact she did not honor your boundary. I am wanting you to say why you think "bringing it up" will have different results than any other confrontation? Frankly, I still think you have taken bits from here & there and may be confused..........or maybe you are confusing me. We seem to be repeating ourselves a lot.

I've asked it previously and I'll ask it again.........what are you expecting it to accomplish? A relationship talk? You guys talked all the way back from the counseling session, but none of this was mentioned. Why? Why do you want to do it now after the sessions are over and you are back home again?

I am trying to make you think about what and why you want to confront her. The last time you tried it, you made a mess. Waking her from a dead sleep and proclaiming how you wouldn't stay if you were ever betrayed (or something along those lines). You basically put words in her mouth about no more contact with OM. Of course, she did not honor it, and you've been itching to confront her again. You say you want to stay on the path of the MC..........so why do continue to bounce back on this point of confronting her about contacting the OM? It's like you are saying you want to go the soft husband-friend route.......but in the meantime, you want to confront her about NC.

Confrontation alone does not accomplish anything but letting her know that you know or suspect. If you turn around and want her to talk to the MC.......then why not wait for the MC bring it up in the C session?

In a sense (especially since you think your WW could possibly be responding to this MC), I think you want it both ways. However, to have been a day of intensive counsling, it doesn't appear that your MC gave specific and clear "how to" instructions to get the results you want to currently see. It is not good enough for the MC to just "indicate" that transparency and honesty are important and that the affair would need to stop. Then she sends you home for a month (?) without a plan, other than spending time together? I don't know about you.....but it frustrates the heck out of me!

I think you need to just sleep on it tonight. I'll try to post more tomorrow.

[hoosjim]

I get the concept of the WW. I get the necessity for respect. If you will recall, right now my W does not know that I "know" about her breaking NC. (Other than that I suspect it might have been possible that one night two weeks ago, but she doesn't know I know for sure, which I do.) She also doesn't know I know she has been in touch (and likely recently, too) via FB, even though it was she herself who showed me her page last week. Also noteworthy, however, is that she returned the "Cheater phone" which she did not even know that I knew she had reprocured. No reason for her to give that up unless she was sincere, at least with herself, about making some sort of effort and living up to her promise. Note that I am NOT saying that I think she is suddenly abandoning her wayward ways... just that I think that a window may be open for her to do so, or at least for her to establish true "no contact", and that she has made several hard steps in that direction.. YES, i wish the MC had talked in more specifics about the A and about HOW to get past and deal with the "NC" phase, but she did not. Some of that may be partially my fault as I did not press my W or call her out or indicate any angst more than that my trust had been damaged, but I had thought that MC wanted me to let her take the lead on that. She DID however give us alot more to do than just "spending time together". At any rate... THAT is where we are now.

In a vacuum, without the counselling, I am probably saying "look, I just can't trust what's going on here, can't live this way, we need to move on separately." Honestly, I get very confused by you sometimes... you seem to be saying both "you should be standing up for yourself and putting your foot down here" but also "no, you really shouldn't be doing that now." My feeling is that I should bring up the transparency. Maybe NOT by saying "I say OM on your feed", but just by saying "I think this is something we need to do and without which I can't trust you." Or I could just drop the bomb based on the previous breaks of NC and the absence of any real clarity on the issue from the MC.

The problem with the latter course of action is that she CLEARLY has done some things to break contact. I don't want to waste this opportunity. I also feel like if I "blow up" the counselling now that W is going to have a very hard time trusting me on any such efforts in the future. I'm just not sure why exploring transparency here, either jointly or with MC, would be a bad idea, unless it is just in the way that I am going about it. I could, of course, "insist" on it, which I would be willing to do but, as you note, there is no gaurantee she would comply. Really seems to me as if we/she could use extra guidance from MC but... how to get there.

What I want to accomplish is simply one of two things, Either:

1) If she is sincerely making efforts on "no contact", to get her the help and resources and guidance and support she needs to complete that effort... including cutting FB and all other contact.

OR

2) If she is "playing" me or the process somehow, or not truly willing to cut contact or work on things at the moment, then I want her to UNDERSTAND that i AM willing to separate, that I will not tolerate contact with the OM or other similar disprespectful behavior, and that we are, as of now, DONE.

It just doesn't seem that I can establish that "2" is the case, even as it most definitely WAS the case as of a week ago. I was absolutely ready to pull the plug then and everyone was telling me to "wait, wait... see what the counselling brings". Well, the counselling SEEMS to have brought a return of my wife towards efforts to cut contact and maybe even work on the marriage. Do I now pull the plug?

[hoosjim]

And sorry if I seem frustrated its just... Arrrggh. It seems like my question is a pretty simple one: Good idea or bad idea at this time to broach the transparency issue with W, either in a vacuum OR alternatively in the context of "look, I saw this when you showed me your FB last week and I waited to bring it up because the MC session was so close but now I think we need to address it since we didnt get to it at MC."

I also really think you mischaracterize what I have done in at least a couple of instances. I did not "put words in her mouth", and the "NC discussion" was a planned "talk", not from a "dead sleep". I am also not all that "hot for a confrontation", BUT... I do NOT fear one. We already went over the best way to approach that if it ever comes up, and I am TOTALLY ON BOARD WITH and understanding OF that: Dont say what I know or how I know it, stick with MY boundary ("I can't/wont continue with things as they are"), etc. etc

I am STRICTLY, in this one particular element, trying to discern whether or not and, if so, how, to address the issue of phone/internet transparency and help my W "get to" a true "no contact" dynamic (if possible.) And, yes, I know there is no way to ever guarantee that, but... THAT IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE THE CASE. IF that uncertainty is truly a show stopper then WHY EVER TRY TO SHOOT FOR THAT (No Contact).

Alternately, If she IS full-on deceiving me, I will know fairly soon and then I will enforce my boundary. That has always been my plan and hasn't changed. I dont intend to live that way.

As to the counselor, she really did seem to have a good grip on the WW/Affair dynamic in the individual session and in correspondence. Not sure why she didn't give us a more specific plan on transparency (she had indicated to me that she advocated pretty stringent and specific protocols) except that we ran short of time. This would be another reason i thought it might be appropriate to circle back with her.

I really dont think I am as directionless/clueless as you seem to think I am. Just a little uncertain on this one point. I know you have a lot of followers on here, but go back and read some of my thread which might clear things up a bit.

Thanks, as usual, for your time an insights.

[sandi2]

I get the concept of the WW. I get the necessity for respect. If you will recall, right now my W does not know that I "know" about her breaking NC. (Other than that I suspect it might have been possible that one night two weeks ago, but she doesn't know I know for sure, which I do.) She also doesn't know I know she has been in touch (and likely recently, too) via FB, even though it was she herself who showed me her page last week. Also noteworthy, however, is that she returned the "Cheater phone" which she did not even know that I knew she had reprocured. No reason for her to give that up unless she was sincere, at least with herself, about making some sort of effort and living up to her promise. Note that I am NOT saying that I think she is suddenly abandoning her wayward ways... just that I think that a window may be open for her to do so, or at least for her to establish true "no contact", and that she has made several hard steps in that direction.. YES, i wish the MC had talked in more specifics about the A and about HOW to get past and deal with the "NC" phase, but she did not. Some of that may be partially my fault as I did not press my W or call her out or indicate any angst more than that my trust had been damaged, but I had thought that MC wanted me to let her take the lead on that. She DID however give us alot more to do than just "spending time together". At any rate... THAT is where we are now.

And I get what you are saying here ^^^^^^^^^^^^^. You don't have to repeat it.

It just doesn't seem that I can establish that "2" is the case, even as it most definitely WAS the case as of a week ago. I was absolutely ready to pull the plug then and everyone was telling me to "wait, wait... see what the counselling brings". Well, the counselling SEEMS to have brought a return of my wife towards efforts to cut contact and maybe even work on the marriage. Do I now pull the plug?

I don't think you fully understand my position. Yes, I agreed with the DB coach about waiting, b/c you were not grounded enough......and b/c it was just a few days till the MC sessions. I am not trying to talk out of both sides of my mouth. You have basically told me that you preferred to take the advice of the MC........and I was trying to explain that what I tell you could hinder the MC's advice.........and her advice could hinder mine. So far, you have been vague in saying what she gave you to do after you returned home.....but at this point, I'm tired of rehashing the same thing.....so don't go into it again. There is too much time consumed in writing these posts, going back & forth and neither of us getting our questions answered.

I'll be back in a couple of hours. If you want to hear what I have to say about the steps to take in approaching her on the NC and transparency.......I will lay it out. I wanted you to see the position it put me by saying you wanted to follow the MC.......then asking "me" how to approach your W on these issues. I can tell you my opinion, if you want it. But I don't know that it will blend with the counselor's advice.

Anyway, I will return in a few hours and maybe we can start with a somewhat clean slate.

[hoosjim]

I understand, Sandi, and thanks for sticking with me, here. I would of course be interested in whatever you have to say/post. I am, as you know, trying to "put this in God's hands" as much as possible. To me that appeared from all indications to see how the MC went. It went, in my estimation, fairly well, and my W has clearly taken some steps that she didn't even have to such as returning the cheating phone I didn't even know existedthat I find encouraging. BUT... the continued (presumed) FB contact as well as the lack of transparency are not making me comfortable. MC discussed "complete" transparency in the context of the A, and told us to talk about it between ourselves and work on solutions but did not give us any clear guidelines on doing so. I just don't want to miss an opportunity here for my W to fully embrace the "NC", if you even think that that is possible.

DB Coach had told me to "wait" not just because I "wasn't grounded" but because she thought there appeared to be an opening based on thing my W had said and done (legit interest she showed in the MC process, for example) and didn't want to torpedo that with a confrontation. Also advised me to think very carefully about everything I said and the way I approached W (even if I did decide to drop the rope or cut the cord or whatever due to NC violation) and couch things in terms of MY feelings and MY limits so as not to come across as attacking or say anything that might seriously (further) damage the relationship (such as things that might necessarily indicate I had been snooping/spying or things that were outright and specifically accusatory.)

Hope this helps. I just... Darnit.