WW in PA: Threaten to tell kids? Confront OM?

[hoosjim]

Thanks, Sandi. That is pretty much in line with my own thinking. Of course, her take on this is and will be that "we were already effectively done, my feelings for you were already gone, and we would be splitting up anyway with or without the OM. HE is not the reason we are splitting up." There is SOME truth to that, or at least some potential truth. We were definitely already headed in that direction before the A cropped up and, without the A cropping up, it is questionable if I would've been shocked into the changes that make me at least arguably the kind of man that she could stand to be with. Nonetheless, it seems pretty clear that WITHOUT the A, we would have a much, much better and more focused chance at reconciling. (But, as I said, she doesn't see it that way and thinks she can "separate the two" in her head.)

Not agreeing with her (completely), Just sayin'...

[blueboy]

Hi Hoosjim

You W sound like me, she convinced herself that she was doing no wrong and we were having a amicable split, instead of her running off with OM.

It's also like they can't match their behaviour with their own moral or values so have to write a story in their mind to make them feel better about what they are doing.

Have strong firm boundaries, don't agree to tell the story her way. She need to see the consequences of her actions, she is in a dream world at the moment, where she can leave you to be with OM and she has done nothing wrong.

Above all do not trust her, she is like an addict, OM is her drug! The only way this changes is if she suffer some form of loss and consequences to her actions.

Send strength and a big hug

[hoosjim]

Well, hmmm... She went to bed in the guest room again tonight. That's four of the last five nights, though the night of the "NC commitment" she slept in same bed. So, SHE is the one doing the distancing. How the heck am I supposed to distance when she is already distancing in the house/sleeping arrangements about as much as possible. Guess I just play it cool? Act like I don't notice? Detach and go about my business?

Kind of funny that I told her she had to cut contact OR get out, and she appears to have done BOTH.

[TxHubby]

What a lot of people forget to tell you is if you don't do the 180 correctly then you're actually doing your WW a favor. If she wants nothing to do with you then you staying away from her is exactly what she wants. You have to add in GAL activities and move on. Start having an awesome life without her and let her see you doing it. Don't fake it. Do it.

[hoosjim]

Well, that (no contact) didn't last long. She drove by the OM's fave hangout today (dead end, mostly abandoned strip mall, no other reason to go there) but didn't go in. Wondered why we she was going out, checked family locator on cell phone plan. Sounds from many stories here as if this is not uncommon. How long so you let cintact attempts

[hoosjim]

Well, that (no contact) didn't last long. She drove by the OM's fave hangout today (dead end, mostly abandoned strip mall, no other reason to go there) but didn't go in. Wondered why we she was going out, checked family locator on cell phone plan. Sounds from many stories here as if this is not uncommon. How long do you let contact attempts (or actual contact) to continue before lowering the boom. Assuming she didn't call or dm the guy in advance and just drive by to see if he qas there (why else drive through parking lot?) Seems like withdrawal pains...

[sandi2]

Well, hmmm... She went to bed in the guest room again tonight. That's four of the last five nights, though the night of the "NC commitment" she slept in same bed. So, SHE is the one doing the distancing. How the heck am I supposed to distance when she is already distancing in the house/sleeping arrangements about as much as possible. Guess I just play it cool? Act like I don't notice? Detach and go about my business?

So, how's your plan coming along?

[hoosjim]

I did NOT expect her to "agree" AND to start sleeping separately. Benefit of doubt a bit on her back, which she DOES have problems with, but... the coincidence is a bit much. She also had dinner/drinks with wayward BFF until fairly late Saturday (got home 1230) at distant locale. I don't THINK OM was there but i DO think BFF is serving as some sort of liaison, AS ARE a couple of girls at my W's office, who are pretty clearly covering for her. It's discouraging. Almost like the whole world is against me up here and wants my W and OM to get together. AND I'M BOTH A REALLY GOOD AND (blessed to be) a PRETTY GOOD-LOOKING GUY (especially for my age.) You'd think I'd publicly beaten her or something...

Then again, she went by his bar... but didn't go in. Which seems to indicate she is either a) not in direct contact with him or b) chickened out.

She is still clearly mopey.

My "plan" was to "put her out" if she refused to cut contact. If she continues to keep in contact and I KNOW it or can SHOW it my plan is also to "put her out" (to the extent I can-- don't think there's any legal recourse but I think she will cooperate given what I know and what she doesn't want known-- dont even think i would have to make the threat.) If she doesn't and I cant force it (house is co-owned) I will separate as much as possible and push forward with D filing if necessary. I have established as another "boundary" that I wont lie to the kids, so she knows she has that risk she is incurring if she continues. OTOH, if she makes a good faith effort to cut contact, my intent had been to try some counselling with a pro-marriage counselor I had found who I like very much. Keep DB-ing. In the short term, I had been going to give her a week to adjust and see how the cutting contact went. Tomorrow I am going to press her on the internet/email/social-media passwords. She is still doing a LOT of FB-ing and FB-messaging.

My major conundrum continues to be, though, how I'd reconcile the 180s and detaching with the NC-stage closeness and (if I do it as SEVERAL experienced folks have advised) MC. If she is TRULY trying to be true to the "NC" promise (and right now doesn't yet seem so), do I continue detaching and GAL-ing on my own and playing hard to get, or do I need to focus on being around. She never got and still hasn't gotten to a spot where I "interest" her, even IF she has committed to No Contact. At this stage, what's my best play to draw her interest. My assumption (and my plan) is that I should continue GAL-ing and detaching and distancing as much as possible (without being a jerk) until I see some signs of true remorse, etc. If that is my plan, though, and I think it is, how do I work the MC into that... because several knowledgeable/experienced folks have indicated to me that now might be a good time to try a little counselling.

[hoosjim]

Well, this is interesting. One week in to "no contact." Cant say for 100% she is maintaining "NC" (I still don't have FB password and, even if I did, there are about 10000 other ways the OM can contact her, particularly on work phone at work and via my W's BFF as a liaison) but she is at least not overtly trying to see the OM. She DID drive by "his" hangout bar on Sunday around midday (it is in a closed/closing strip mall with no other reason to drive in there) but did not go in, so she is/was either not in direct contact with him or else chickened out. She IS somewhat mopey towards me... going to bed extra early, and in the guest room, not the MBR (though she does have back probs and our MBR mattress stinks and that is at least the excuse she is using) and NOT initiating texts to me during the day, which she has almost always done. She is not acting/talking openly hostile towards me, however, though I know from having known her so long that she can easily suppress/internalize negative feelings sometimes and "carry on" as if she is not mad, only letting out that she is when you start a conversation and ask. The most puzzling thing is that she has become MORE active around the house. After BD in January, i had started picking up alot more of the slack around the house (NOT "super husband" or gay butler kind of stuff, just picking up the slack in areas where I had NOT been previously holding up my end... and the house showed it-- I am now at a place where I don't LIKE living in a chaotic/messy house and have gotten the kids to pick up some more of the slack too), but in the past week she has started doing some of the things I had been doing chore-wise. Also, cooking more for the family, etc. All the while still maintaining her distance with the sleeping arrangements. Can't find any examples or case studies like this on the boards or elsewhere. Seems like if she was really mope-y, she should be just sitting around neglecting everything. Certainly not amping up the homemaking. Anyone else ever seen a confronted/busted wayward do this kind of thing?

My plan for now is to keep D-B-ing. Not sure we can yet have any detailed R talks because pretty sure she is not close to "over" the OM, and because I am not sure I trust her, yet. Going to bring up the internet/email/Social media passwords again tonight under the veil of transparency and "why WOULDN't spouses, especially ones trying to rebuild trust, share those?" Still keeping with my GAL-ing... working out regularly outside of the house approx 4 times per week, going out on my own or with friends once. Thinking about adding a class or classes to start learning horses (riding, care, etc.) since I have kind of always wanted to and now think, split or not, that once the kids are out of the house I am going to want to move out of the city and get a bit of land with a horse or two. (Added bonus is that this is something she is interested in, too.) At any rate, wondering if everyone thinks the detachment and "being scarce" bit is still the right play at this point, or if I should be striving to be "around" and "available" a bit more, now, assuming "NC" with the OM and given her demeanor. Invite her out for a "no relationship talk" drink at some point-- no pressure, just blow off some steam?

Also, any other thoughts on moving us into MC? She has no interest in individual therapy (even though I think it would help) but has on a couple of occasions indicated possible receptiveness to Couples counselling (even as she has explicitly said she has no problem doing so as a "box checking" exercise and would be looking at it more as a tool to find out "IF she wanted to try to save the marriage" or "IF she thought it would be possible for her to be happy in the marriage" rather than as a tool to actively and definitively "try to save the marriage." My inclination, based on my "gut", prayer, and the recommendation of some both on this forum and elsewhere (particularly from the Marriage Counselor I trust and whom I intend to go see if we do that) is to try to get her to counselling, absent some compelling argument not to.

As always, thanks to all for all the support here, and all thoughts are warmly appreciated.

[hoosjim]

Slight update. I had been going to to talk to her about internet "transparency" as well as possibly MC (she had mentioned this in our last talk) last night, but she went up to bed early, again. And in the guest bed, again. I went in and asked if she was still awake and she kind of mumbled "no." So I just said, "Okay, try to get some sleep, goodnight" (she hasn't been sleeping very well.) As I walked out, she kind of perked up a little and said "did you want to talk about something?" and I said "no, it can wait until tomorrow". At which point, she asked again but I again put it off. So, today, after she leaves for work, she calls me from the car five minutes into her drive (she hasn't called me from car for a few days, now, not since we had the "NC" talk), has some nice small talk, and asks again what I wanted to talk to her about last night. I gently put it off again, saying we could talk tonight, that it was nothin "bad", and that I wanted to talk to her face to face and while she was awake. She was a little pout-y about that in kind of joking way, saying "well, if you don't want to talk I guess I'll just have to watch all the cars go by and cutting me off while I'm trying to get to work." So we talked for a couple of more minutes and then I broke it off "so I could finish getting ready." A little more background here is that her AM and PM drives HAD BEEN her primary contact times with the OM, where she had long-ish talks with him, including some very flirty and even explicit stuff, and during which he made her "laugh alot" (He IS a very funny guy.) She is not currently getting those conversations with him.

I am NOT taking the above as any kind of positive sign. I just find it interesting that she is so interested/eager to find out what I wanted to talk to her about. In the past, and through this whole process, she has typically dreaded MR talks with me (and has told me so: "Oh, here he comes again, what is it going to be this time?"

My plan, unless someone talks me off the ledge, is to bring up both of these topics tonight or, if the situation does not look ripe, tomorrow at the latest. 1) Transperancy, in the positive sense that we are working on rebuilding trust, that this is something ALL married couples should have (and always DID have until the advent of social media and internet) and that it is not monitoring (if she tries to say it is that) but actually almost the opposite-- something a couple gives to each other rather than something they do to each other. If there is transparency there is no need for monitoring. ANd 2) Counselling: I know some would say this is probably premature, as I don't think I have full remorse and personal accountability from her, yet, and quite clearly based on her Sunday drive-by the OM is not out of her head, yet. However, we (and she brought it up) discussed counseling for, I think, the fourth time since we started having difficulties, (only the second time since BD in january, though) and each time I have not followed up. Following up and at least giving it a shot would be a 180 of sorts for me. OTOH, I worry about counselling being a) emotional "pressure" for her b) another opportunity for to perceive me as "pursuing" her (although my intent at this point is to say I am not 100% certain myself at this point and need to find out if we can restore the trust enough, etc., to reconcile) and c) just a box-checking exercise for her to speed up her exit from the marriage. That's a lot seemingly stacked against the idea of counselling right now... However: I have a really good counselor, pro-marriage, with whom I have spoken previously and who has a philosophy I think my W would not find pressuring (this counselor is also a sex/intimacy therapist who believes that that level of relationship can be restored-- in fact that it HAS to be restored in order for their to be a viable marriage-- once lost) and I feel like my wife, who is in a place where she wants to see if "she could even want to try to work on the marriage" might benefit from the counselling. I also have a very strong feeling, due to a number of bizarre "coincidences" that led me to this therapist, too lengthy to go into here, that this person has a role to play in my marriage before all is said and done... and that therapist in particular thinks it could be beneficial for us to come in at this time.

But I am still torn on the timing of of the counselling thing, as I am on the balance to strike between "pursuit" and "distance". It was lack of pursuit and lack of intimacy, over many years, that got me into this fix in the first place. Backing off completely now seems like it might not be that awesome a plan. So I think I am going to broach and move ahead with trying counselling, while, on the home front, not actively pursuing her (and perhaps just pretending not to notice and not even mentioning again her bedroom absence) while at the same time being available and responsive, in kind, when she reaches out.

Really feel like I am walking a tightrope, here, and don't want to give the OM a chance to worm his way back in (her birthday is next week which will be an ideal opportunity for him I am sure he will try to leverage), but don't want to overbear her and push her away. We had a brief period (3-4 weeks) of steadily improving relationship and warmth, during which I was GAL-ing and she had distanced herself from the OM, but that all reversed when they reconnected in late March early April. Now, she's apparently (though not certainly-- I can't check everything) distanced herself from him AND from me at the same time.