WW in PA: Threaten to tell kids? Confront OM?

[hoosjim]

Sandi thanks. I do appreciate your "tough love" with me.

I guess I have technically achieved "no contact." She says she got rid of the extra "straight talk" phone, will no longer go to the bar where OM hangs out, will not "seek out" contact, and has told him she cant talk to him because she needs to find out where "she needs to be." She took the lock off her phone but is a little waffle-y about FB password ("Im not sure I remember it") She also downplayed the A to "friendship" and "flirting" (lies, It was pretty explicit flirting based on overheard phonecall that made me 90-95% sure they were physical... if not, they were explicitly describing HOW they were going to be physical with each other, and she spent the night with him at least once though not clear they had sex). She is surly about it, saying she is just going to "sit around the house now" like the "good little wife". She did show a wee bit of remorse, acknowledging that what she had done was wrong and hurtful and a mistake, but says she honestly does not know how "it happened" (i.e. not a conscious choice on her part)and she did not show the type of remorse that has been described as showing she is "over it". She is also still resentful and has "trust issues" with me because i bugged her car once with an extra cell phone about two weeks in to all this (early February--guilty as charged) and got caught, though she does allow she "probably deserved it." She spent alot of time on the phone with her wayward best friend before talking to me... dont know what went on with that, though presumably nothing good for me.

Unfortunately, I got sucked down the rabbit hole on a couple of topics: 1) How and what to tell the kids if we split (she is already thinking about this-- and she definitely doesn't want to have any blame on her even if she ends up with OM eventually) and 2) Our own MR and what we are going to do to address it. She says she still doesn't have romantic feelings for me (no surprise, she was on the phone less than a week ago giving the OM oral sex tips) and can't even see us "going out and having fun or doing the flirty things she can see herself doing on a "date". Doesn't see herself ever having that spark with me but is willing to try MC and is somewhat eager to get started. Doesn't seem at all troubled at the idea of doing it as a "box checking" exercise. I, of course, would love to get to counselling... eventually, but not now. She clearly is not disposed to try to save the marriage and no WAY is she over the A at this point. My game plan had been to sort of lay low, detach, distance, let her grieve the end of the A (if she sticks to her word), and then play the "distance/pursuit" game and follow the 37 rules colored by "Georgia Bulldog's" addenda concerning the "NC" phase for waywards. Keep re-evaluating and hope she started showing signs of true remorse and/or interest in saving marriage. Not sure how I will deflect the counselling request. I left it tonight as "I wanted to clear the air on this one issue tonight, we can talk about the rest in a few days... I think it's too soon.

[sandi2]

Ask yourself this question. Why would a wife not share a password with her H?

I think the wayward friend will be the liaison for the affair partners. Not sure what you can do about it. I don't suggest you try to pressure her to end the BFF right now. One step at a time.

Yes, your W is resentful. No, she is not remorseful yet. She got caught! That's all.

There's one thing to observe that will pretty much tell the true story. Her attitude. She may be able to act as if she's going along with your wishes for a few days, but her resentment will begin to seep through her attitude. She will have to tackle her resentment, eventually. If you get an experienced therapist, hopefully this will be dealt with and she'll have guidance out of resenting things of the past.

When her words, attitude, and actions line up together..........then that is a good sign she is making honest effort.

She is also still resentful and has "trust issues" with me because i bugged her car once with an extra cell phone about two weeks in to all this (early February--guilty as charged) and got caught, though she does allow she "probably deserved it."

Look, this is a WW tactic to twist and turn the "trust issue" around on the H. Get this straight.........you do nothing to earn a cheater's trust when they discover they have been caught. This has nothing to do about her trusting you. It has everything to do about her untrustworthiness. She may try to talk about not being able to trust you........or not having her own privacy, etc., in order to turn the spotlight away from her and shine it on you. Do not let her play those games. Keep your head straight about these issues.

She did show a wee bit of remorse, acknowledging that what she had done was wrong and hurtful and a mistake, but says she honestly does not know how "it happened" (i.e. not a conscious choice on her part)and she did not show the type of remorse that has been described as showing she is "over it".

First of all, she has not had time to get over it. She just got busted. Her answer is typical of a busted WW. However, I do not see affairs as making a mistake and not knowing how it happened. She knew! That's just her way of trying to get out of trouble by giving a childlike excuse. As if she thinks you will hug her and say it's okay and everyone makes mistakes. She would like that type of response from you, b/c she would feel like it lets her off the hook.

Remember, baby steps the next few days. Expect her to have a lot of questions regarding separation/divorce. What to tell the kids, who lives where, etc. She will be trying to weigh her options, instead of focusing on ending the A. So.........don't go down that rabbit hole again. Just tell her that is not the immediate issue. Her faithfulness is the current issue. All that other will be the results of her unwillingness to do the right thing to save the M.

[hoosjim]

Thanks again, Sandi. That's exactly what I was thinking about her wayward BFF, who has been an enabler for alot of this-- "nights out" with her have been cover for W to take "side trips" to see the OM on more than one occasion.

Right now just going to have to ride it out for a bit. Try to avoid any in depth MR discussions. She WAS pretty disturbed by the idea of the kids "knowing the truth". She was like "Even if I didn't agree to cut contact and said I was going to continue contact with OM and ultimately went off with him, why would you ever want kids to know anything more than that you and I were unhappy and agreed to split up... anything else would just be to hurt me and them. I would think you'd want everyone to be happy." I deflected this by saying we weren't talking about splitting up and telling the kids right now, but I was curious if, even though I did not intend to go around exposing her to anyone, she expected me to lie to cover for her if asked. She sort of had a noncommittal answer about that, but I was able to move the conversation past that issue. For now, it's not an issue because we are not splitting, but I do want the thoughts of deceiving her children in her head, even as I don't necessarily want her thinking I am trying to shame her in to coming back.

[hoosjim]

Day 1 post "no contact": W home early from work. Very mopey. Went to bed early... in guest room bed. This in and of itself is not HIGHLY unusual, as we have a pretty bad/old mattress in MBR and she/we will sometimes sleep in guest BR (one of the overlays we should have taken care of a long time ago and still have not) but... she has been in there now three of last four nights. Although, last night, the night when I insisted on her consent to NC, she did sleep in our bed. Definitely mopey this evening, though.

I am wanting to fine-tune how I play this in the short term in terms of interacting with her. Obviously, she is going to be mopey and possibly/probably resentful, especially with wayward BFF undoubtedly bending her ear about what a wretch I am. One of our biggest, in fact probably the biggest problem plaguing our marriage was my neglect of her... on just about every level. Now, she is "cutting contact" supposedly and moping with her wayward thoughts. How much should I be hanging around and available, and how much should I be making myself scarce. Normally, my MO would be working out at gym two out of every three evenings for approximately an hour, and meeting friends out at least once a week (and every 2-3 weekends going overnight to visit friends in nearby town.) Do I want to continue to be that "scarce" while she is in the early processing stages, or do I want to be a little more available without being clingy/creepy. I had read GA Bulldog's take on Sandi's 37 rules where he opined that where WWs are in this stage it might actually be a good idea to not just abandon them to their own devices all the time. My plan has been to continue to be "detached" but not cold-- somewhat responsive if/when she seeks me out, but also to continue with my own GAL efforts (though I was going to forego leaving town for a couple of weekends.) I had not been thinking of doing anything radically different during this stage-- sort of see how she does and observe.

There is a lot of distance between us right now. You can tell it is not just lack of warm/romantic feelings but probably actually some repulsed/negative/resentful feelings, even though she says not. And i probably deserve a bit of that (even as i most definitely do NOT deserve to have her cheat on me)... there was a lot of neglect on my part... a LOT. The environment we are in in our part of the country is not helping, either. Suburban, high achievement culture... a LOT of divorce. Pretty much every single couple we know with whom she is close friends with the wife is either separated or in the process of doing so or in definite, obvious, and acknowledged trouble and headed that way. She and BFF's philosophy on long-term marriage definitely very jaded right now. Hope God wants this to work out for us, because it's gonna take a biblical-sized miracle, IMHO.

[25yearsmlc]

Hoos

any chance she'd be willing to go to Retrovaille? (are you familiar with it?)

Though she may think it's worthless and express no interest, IMHO, getting her there is the goal.

I don't think you can spend the whole weekend there and listen, and do the "homework" and get nothing out of it.

Even if she thinks it's just to make things easier on the kids. I'm not saying to be dishonest but I am saying to consider just getting you guys there.

They will talk to each of you privately about ending A's before going. You do not have to bring it up.

In fact, I would not. Lessen the pressure as it relates to Retrovaille.

Yes, I know my m is ending now. And it $ucks. I have a million challenges there.

But I can still say Retrovaille was a very good experience for us. It was the most I saw my h "getting it" and frankly, it was his breakthrough there that played a huge role in keeping me in the m the past decade.

Just an idea.

For you as an individual, try looking up "Essential Experience" in Philadelphia. There's a website. See what you think.

Though it's not for couples specifically, it always helps the r's in your life b/c it's a profound personal growth workshop. And I think it' s crucial we work on our own issues apart from the marriage

even though the m is affected by our "stuff". It's also "experiential" so you will not sit there in a lecture mode and rehearse or edit your responses.

You will discover things about yourself and, best of all, leave with an action plan.

Hang in there.

[hoosjim]

Thanks, 25yrs.

Retrouvaille sounds like a neat program, but not sure if it is what we need right now. Seems pretty communication-oriented... which was a problem for us, but not the main problem. Also don't know if she wants a religious-sponsored program because she doesn't like any "you need to stay together because the bible says so" or "because it is the right thing to do" type-stuff.

Also, in general, I am not certain that we are "therapy ready" right now. Isn't therapy more appropriate for when you reach the "piecing" stage? Right now, she is fresh off an affair, sulking about it (and, quite honestly, probably still maintaining contact with the OM) and completely convinced that she and I have NO FUTURE together. Our last talk pretty much confirmed that, while she was open to counselling, it wasn't to "try to save the marriage" but to determine "whether or not she even wanted to try to save the marriage"... more of a box-checking exercise before she says "soyonara."

Having a really bad day, today, FWIW. Alot of despair, don't see alot of hope for us. God shows me the way forward, though, with or without her, and I will do whatever needs to be done. So, so hard, though. Wish I could hate her... would make it a lot easier.

[25yearsmlc]

Thanks, 25yrs.

Retrouvaille sounds like a neat program, but not sure if it is what we need right now. Seems pretty communication-oriented... which was a problem for us, but not the main problem. Also don't know if she wants a religious-sponsored program because she doesn't like any "you need to stay together because the bible says so" or "because it is the right thing to do" type-stuff.

Um, not sure why you think it's that way but it was not our experience at all. My h was agnostic and is now atheist. Never Catholic & never wanted to be. The Retrovaille we attended in the LA area, was NOT pushy about any doctrine. I called ahead.

There were 4 "Team" couples who spoke to us about their experiences and they had major issues (the death of a child, for instance) and we learned from them and the exercises. After hearing of their m's being repaired, I recall thinking h & I had nothing that big to work on, comparatively.

I saw a retired priest in the background who led prayers a few times, but it was so NOT about "making you stay together b/c the bible tells you so."
I hear this talk a lot from those who resist going. Not saying you are, but it's Just an observation. Maybe someone has had a bad theological experience there, but I have not known of one from an actual attendee.

Also, in general, I am not certain that we are "therapy ready" right now. Isn't therapy more appropriate for when you reach the "piecing" stage?

IMO Therapy is mandatory in piecing - and preferably earlier.

Before you can do any recon to get to piecing, T helps in figuring out why one would engage in an affair - or play your role - & I cannot see any reason to avoid getting some therapy.

What's the risk to you? I'm not saying marriage counseling, I'm saying individual therapy for you and or, her. If she's not willing, so be it. What's stopping you?



- Our last talk pretty much confirmed that, while she was open to counselling, it wasn't to "try to save the marriage" but to determine "whether or not she even wanted to try to save the marriage"... more of a box-checking exercise before she says "soyonara."


Retrovaille or you getting ind therapy are not going to end your marriage.

Having a really bad day, today, FWIW.

sorry you are having a bad day. Have you tried "insight timer"? it's a free meditation app that has gotten me off the ledge a few times.

Hang in there.

[sandi2]

She was like "Even if I didn't agree to cut contact and said I was going to continue contact with OM and ultimately went off with him, why would you ever want kids to know anything more than that you and I were unhappy and agreed to split up... anything else would just be to hurt me and them. I would think you'd want everyone to be happy."

Why would everyone be happy that their family has been split apart?

deflected this by saying we weren't talking about splitting up and telling the kids right now, but I was curious if, even though I did not intend to go around exposing her to anyone, she expected me to lie to cover for her if asked.

If this comes up again, I would say something like, "I am not going to lie to my children in order to cover your infidelity, or why you chose to leave the M for another man".

I don't necessarily want her thinking I am trying to shame her in to coming back.

She has had her first taste of reality. It is just hitting her that her adultery might be revealed to her sons. She stupidly thought the man she betrayed would lie to his sons to cover her sins, and act as if everyone is one big happy family.

Don't get confused here. You don't stoop to lying to cover up a cheater's actions. The only reason you would tell your sons about her infidelity would be b/c she leaves to be with OM. If that happens, it affects their lives, too. You would not be shaming her to get her back. Iif she chooses the OM, it would be the results. Just as divorce would be the results.

Instead of her wondering if you will forgive her and allow her to gain back your trust, she is feeling out the situation to see what you will do if she refuses to end contact with the OM. That's common for a WW.

[25yearsmlc]

What she said^^

And of course you don't want her to believe you are shaming her home. That would obviously fail anyhow.

But that's not the same as covering for her lies.

There's a difference.

[25yearsmlc]

PS

when I did consider having an A 20+ years ago, (I justified it for several reasons beyond the scope of the point I want to make.)

The image of my h and children crying and knowing I was ending the m - let alone for OM, killed me.

I changed course, met with a chaplain and saw a shrink and talked to MY closest loved ones ...
And avoided the A.

If h had found out how close I had come and had tried to shame me, I would probably have left him.

Note at the time I felt justified in (nearly) having an A.

But the image of my children feeling sad or visualizing my h being sad (I was very much in love with him but very lonely)

those images stopped me.

So the shame tactic would have ended the marriage,

whereas the idea of my h/kids seeing me as the type of woman to have an A, stopped the A from happening.