WW in PA: Threaten to tell kids? Confront OM?

[hoosjim]

Thank you so much, Sandi, your insights really are invaluable. I have actually become much more contemplative about confronting the OM-- primarily, I think, it is something I need to do for myself and my confidence in myself. Walking into that bar where I used to hang out last night and where I knew I would be alone amongst "enemies" (That's now where my W hangs out with the OM and his friends) was one of the hardest/bravest (stupidest? ) things I have ever done. Would have been nice to have closed the book by talking to the OM, though. Honestly, the guy who posted earlier why don't I "kick his a$$" is something I have considered, though I am now much more centered and at peace than I used to be, and realize that doing that would only likely hurt everyone involved. At the end of the day, I think it may have been God's hand that had me not meet up with my nemesis yesterday... I remain convinced that He is playing a very big role in watching over and sheparding me as I go through all of this.. So maybe not even my place/time to confront OM.

On other fronts, do you think you could answer my questions about how to handle: 1) The move-out request if my W refuses to move out? Ginger raised some good points and, honestly, I am not sure how anyone ANYWHERE would ever have any legal leverage to remove a spouse from a marital abode unless a divorce decree had been granted or there was domestic violence involved. What DO you do if the WS refuses to leave the bedroom and/or the home? I THINK mine will probably comply but... you can never be to sure with waywards, I am finding. Do you just move aggressively to start D proceedings?
AND 2) If she AGREES to "cut contact"... how much do I trust and how much do I monitor/snoop. They have already become very proficient at hiding the A, but I do have some monitoring options available to me. As I posted earlier:

"Also, how do I handle tonight if she "agrees" to my terms? I am inclined to ask for some transparency (ie give up the cheater phone, exchange social media passwords, etc) as well as some assurances about where and when she will go out (obviously NOT to the OM's regular hangout- a potential problem since this is also her wayward best friend's favorite hangout). Also, not sure I can/will even trust her since she hasn't even fully acknowledged the A and has been VERY secretive all along. Should I be prepared to do a little snooping/monitoring (which I am capable of with fairly little risk)?

[25yearsmlc]

One real quick question and it's not to minimize your pain.

What are you doing for you? How are you becoming a husband only a fool would leave?

How are you GAL? Your post was almost all about her and OM.

At some point this has to be all about you & your kids. Believe me, the uncertainty of knowing what that means is - well, it $ucks.

But you will go nuts if this OM and your w occupy all of your thoughts.

BESIDES, I figure with as much pain as I've endured with this, the least I can do is get my emotional money's worth.

Somehow to make it transformative in a good way.

Make sense?

[25yearsmlc]

If adultery is not something you're willing to accept then you should put your foot down. That is a boundary. A HUGE one for married people. Don't rage but do be firm about your boundaries and your self-respect.

Hoos

you will get different advice from spouses who have OM/OWs in the situation.

Sometimes it is projection and sometimes it's just a black and white view and or not really reading your whole thread.

I find you to be very insightful about your role.

While I think affairs are wrong, they are not all alike.

You have a DB coach and I would defer to their advice. I do NOT see your wife as the type to rush back into your arms and away from OMs

until if/when she believes your changes are real and will be lasting.

As you said, she's had 10 years of rejection from you and she did tell you, repeatedly, about her unmet essential needs.

Your insight, your faith and commitment to working on this and doing your best to live by your vows will help you so much.

It can be a fine line between self respect and prideful ego. Make sure you know where it is before making your choices. Are you close to your parish priest?

How was forgiveness modeled in your childhood?

also I suggest you read Bluwaves thread. Her h had an open affair and and is working his a$$ off to reconcile.

But it took him 1-2 years to awaken and their m did not have the issues yours has.

Stay with this...it's the best approach I know of if saving the m is the goal, and I know it is.

((( )))

((( )))

[hoosjim]

25YM, thank you so much for the kind words of support and for the very insightful advice. And thank you for challenging my (pre)conceptions and ideas...it is helpful and I value that.

As for my GAL efforts, I am pretty satisfied with those, which is why I have not really posted asking for any advice. I have been working out ALOT, and, Even at 50, I am in the best shape physically I have been in since before I got married. I have also been focusing on my faith and have been attending a different church part-time because I have found it extremely inspirational and very supportive. By connecting with others and by reconnecting with a couple old friends (one of whom is my best friend, a former atheist, who only recently in the wake of his own separation found God) I have both broadened and strengthened my own faith. The only possible gap is spending "out time" with friends. The current OM was my only real "local" friend at the time of affair discovery. I have since reconnected with one or two older local friends, but neither are much into the going out and doing things mode. My best friend is within an hours drive and I travel down there about every third weekend to socialize and go out. About every other week we will have dinner out up here. I have also taken to going to a local establishment at the end of the days I work out of my home office where I sit on the deck, chat with folks, and finish my administrative tasks for the week. But I do not have a robust support network locally, as of right now.

As to my WW... I have alot of intel on this A, and I am confident that she is definitely "wayward" in just about every sense. In some ways doesn't seem at all like the girl I married. She fits the pattern and I am fairly comfortable in my thinking that she needs to experience the loss of the marital comfort zone, and me as husband, to perhaps start to jar her out of her fog. I know that the road back, if there is to be one, God willing, will be long and hard and will involve much, much more than ending this current A. However, I also know that we will not even be able to start down this road until this current A is at an end. I have been working on self and other DB steps, now, for three and a half months. I am no longer willing to abide an A under this roof. If the guy I am now had been here three and a half months ago, he would have said "this ends now or we end now", but, that guy was not here then. He is here now, though, and he can't stand the thought of much more time of having this A constantly in his face. (Did I mention that my W is REALLY bad at hiding things like this, even when she is trying?)

[25yearsmlc]

25YM, thank you so much for the kind words of support and for the very insightful advice. And thank you for challenging my (pre)conceptions and ideas...it is helpful and I value that.

As for my GAL efforts, I am pretty satisfied with those, which is why I have not really posted asking for any advice. I have been working out ALOT, and, Even at 50, I am in the best shape physically I have been in since before I got married. I have also been focusing on my faith and have been attending a different church part-time because I have found it extremely inspirational and very supportive. By connecting with others and by reconnecting with a couple old friends (one of whom is my best friend, a former atheist, who only recently in the wake of his own separation found God) I have both broadened and strengthened my own faith. The only possible gap is spending "out time" with friends. The current OM was my only real "local" friend at the time of affair discovery.

he's a POS...speaks for itself...but yeah, I'd say you need some new friends...


I have since reconnected with one or two older local friends, but neither are much into the going out and doing things mode. My best friend is within an hours drive and I travel down there about every third weekend to socialize and go out.


I'm just suggesting getting out of the comfort zone a bit b/c you can meet NEW people who don't know your sitch and that's more helpful than you may realize.

Joining something, taking a class, taking up a hobby, volunteering, coaching, auditioning, a language, travel on a trip you really want to take - I think that would feel great and it's such a statement for you IF it's something on your bucket list...

I have a long GAL list of what I did in Alaska...including the above and I learned to hunt big game, snow machine, cross country ski, and I got my pilot's license.

A bucket list of sorts, and I really did not want to surrender to the darkness there...

But I also confess that a few setbacks in my sitch this past 3 weeks, has stalled me. There are days I want to huddle and I'd eat ice cream if I had any in my frig but I just got back from my divorce "vacation" out west.

Point is, I know it can be hard. But I also know that we have to detach from the results of this ordeal and transform our lives or we will continue to feel this pain. And it can be searing at times.

I just don't know a way to Detach without GAL.




About every other week we will have dinner out up here. I have also taken to going to a local establishment at the end of the days I work out of my home office where I sit on the deck, chat with folks, and finish my administrative tasks for the week. But I do not have a robust support network locally, as of right now.

are you in a small town? How close to a bigger area? Are you an introvert or extrovert or in between?

As to my WW... I have alot of intel on this A, and I am confident that she is definitely "wayward" in just about every sense.

Speaking for myself, I choose not to know anything unless it's related to finances. I don't want to stalk the OW on Facebook (I blocked my h) and I think it has spared me some pain. Why do you need the intel? Just curious.

I mean, if you are trying to make adultery the grounds for divorce, once you have SOME info, you don't need a lot of details...and if you are in a no fault state, what's the point? I'm asking b/c I would think you are not making this easier on yourself

but maybe you have a reason...

In some ways doesn't seem at all like the girl I married. She fits the pattern and I am fairly comfortable in my thinking that she needs to experience the loss of the marital comfort zone, and me as husband, to perhaps start to jar her out of her fog.

At these times they are not themselves. Doesn't mean they'll snap out of it AND come back to the family even if they did wake up. But some do.

My DB coach would tell me to "keep the road home, paved and smooth", which is harder with Affairs but not impossible.
If the shame is too great, I think it sort of forces the wayward into committing more to the AP. Sandi mentioned that if her h had been righteous and attempted to shame her, she'd have filed for divorce.

Like your wife, she felt justified in the affair. (It's not as if it was a one night stand, and you already know why your w went that route).

My point is to avoid the black & white SHAME route b/c it ignores her reasoning and the marital history you know you guys have.

Your w once loved you deeply and was wounded badly, over time. I don't know that it's all gone at all.

I think it is covered by layers of rejection and dashed hopes. Stay with your program.

I don't see how it's hurting the situation but I know that we all have our limits. In my mind, 3.5 months is a blink, but that's me.


I know that the road back, if there is to be one, God willing, will be long and hard and will involve much, much more than ending this current A.

However, I also know that we will not even be able to start down this road until this current A is at an end.

I hear that ^^ a lot. And I'm curious too. If the OM is fulfilling her unmet needs and talking in her love language, why would she end the affair? This is not to hurt you but to understand the reasoning behind such a statement.

MY DB coach said "To an extent ALL MLCers and waywards cake eat a bit."

That's the LBSer making every effort to help the marriage heal. And respect matters a lot. As you know, your w's affair did not happen in a vacuum. So, good on you for the working out. You can compliment her appearance and IF given the chance, flirt (ask your DB coach about this. I found my coaches advice to be specific and detailed and incredibly helpful. Mine was a Godsend).


I have been working on self and other DB steps, now, for three and a half months. I am no longer willing to abide an A under this roof. If the guy I am now had been here three and a half months ago, he would have said "this ends now or we end now", but, that guy was not here then. He is here now, though, and he can't stand the thought of much more time of having this A constantly in his face. (Did I mention that my W is REALLY bad at hiding things like this, even when she is trying?)

my h posts on FB about his OW "meeting the family" (not our kids) and how HAPPY he is now...

it $ucks. A 35year m and he announced 3 days after he left that "w and I have parted ways"...

WTF? So I hear you. I blocked the fb and am amazed at the idiocy. Mutual friends are horrified and I don't think h will ever be viewed in the same way...

Again I suggest you read Bluwave's thread...

I get what you are saying, truly I do.

[mvgfwd2]

I wouldn't tell your WW what you will do if she doesn't comply with your demand she leave the MBR or house. Talk is weak, actions are strong. You lay out your boundary "all contact with OM must stop as of now". If she doesn't you take action like just throw her stuff into another room and put a lock on the MBR door. Explain to her that you will not facilitate the A by paying for her devices she uses to communicate with OM then cut her off the phone service. She's a big girl she can get her own phone. You may want to think about separating finances to protect yourself. Your money if for the family and if she is in an A then she is not in your family. These are actions that you can control. You are not controlling her. She can do what she wants. But you are creating boundaries that she can willfully comply with or not. If she chooses to not comply you have to take an ACTION or the boundary and any other ones are a waste of time. So before laying out your boundaries think of the ACTION you will take if she doesn't comply. You only tell her the boundary not the ACTION you will take. If she says something like "and if I don't?" Just say "bad choices have consequences". Being too wordy if weak. Remember ACTIONS are strong, words are weak.

[Btrow]

While I think affairs are wrong, they are not all alike.

Not to highjack or anything, but what do you mean by this, 25?

[25yearsmlc]

While I think affairs are wrong, they are not all alike.

Not to highjack or anything, but what do you mean by this, 25?

I'll find your thread soon and expound on this^^. Here, I will just say IMO - context matters.

Ignoring context means all is black and white, so most LBSers with a spouse who is in an A, should just file for Div & that's that.

To be clear, No I am not a cheater, and No I am not "defending" affairs.

[sandi2]

Let me try to put it this way.......if you suddenly do a particular action just b/c of a post you read, and then come back and say, "what now".........that's not what I see as a thought-out plan. That is how a H gets himself in a bigger mess and farther from his goal of busting a divorce. You seem mighty anxious to kick her out of the house, and yet.....have you sought legal advice?

To develop a plan, you need to know yourself well enough to realize what you will tolerate and what you won't. You need to know what is the most important thing you want in a MR. What do you need as a man, etc. You learn from MWD, the board, etc., and consider the positive & negative results to certain actions in your situation. And, if experienced people are telling you that particular actions do not work.......listen to them. Also, realize things may appear to get worse before you can see the final results. For example, it may take a period of living in separate houses before the MR can be reconciled successfully. (That's only an example of the point I'm making). But you have just told her that you are not willing to live in an open M (last night or the night before). Right? Isn't that all that's been said, or did I miss something? If nothing more has been said, do you not want to wait a few days to see if she attempts to end contact with OM? It would give you time to check out your legal options, and to gain more information as to what to expect. Timing is everything!

my questions about how to handle: 1) The move-out request if my W refuses to move out?

If you have set a boundary of no form of contact with OM, and she ignores it......what can you do then? Do you know your legal rights? Is her name on the deed, etc? That's what you need to find out. There used to be a lot of stories of how men kicked out their WW,.....and there were a couple of WW's that refused to be kicked out. Don't threaten or promise anything you can't deliver.

When/if you approach this subject of her leaving the house, then calmly tell her if she is not going to respect the MR, then she should find another place to stay. Do not argue about it. If she blows ups, let her blow. Don't go into long explanations. If she out & out refuses to leave, then start from that point by acting as if you are separated (whether she physically moves out or not). Sure, you can pack up her things and leave in the garage, or whatever, but if the law says you can't force her out against her will......then I think you need to leave her things alone. When checking the laws, find out how it would affect you in a divorce if you were the one who left the marital home. Some places see it as abandonment by the husband/father. Know where you stand legally, before trying to take drastic steps.

AND 2) If she AGREES to "cut contact"... how much do I trust and how much do I monitor/snoop. They have already become very proficient at hiding the A, but I do have some monitoring options available to me. As I posted earlier:

You can't trust her! You especially cannot believe something just b/c she says it. She did not value the trust you gave her the first time, and she betrayed you. She will have to earn your trust the second time around. That is why transparency and accountability is needed. Transparency is also to help her as she goes through the period of withdrawals. We can discuss it more, later.

"Also, how do I handle tonight if she "agrees" to my terms?

Tonight? You have no plan and are asking what to do at every turn. I don't think you are digesting everything correctly. You are about to charge into something you have no clue as how to handle it. How many times have we said to slow down and take time to learn about this process? Once you charge off into it......how will you know what to do or say next?

Your boundary statement to your WW: "I am not willing to live in an open marriage or indeed for you to continue to have any kind of contact with the OM while you are living under this roof".

Your terms stated to your WW: "If yoy are hoing to stay i need you to cut all conract, and I need an answer by tomorrow (meaning today/Tuesday)."

Immediate issue: "She said she understood but also stuck to party line that it was not an "A" and that contact had been getting less and less and was almost down to nothing".

Look again at her response. She is denying it's an affair and tries to brush it off by saying contact was getting less & less. She is lying and will try to claim "he's just a friend", if you bring up the word "affair". Do not argue with her at this time that it is an affair. If we have a friendship with male or female that makes our spouse feel uncomfortable, threatened, or seen as inappropriate........wouldn't the logical answer be to choose the marriage relationship over a friend relationship? The day the choice is to pick a friend over your own spouse.....is the day the M is basically over. Who gives up their spouse to keep a friend? However, WW will often make a strong stand on the whole friend debate, and accuse the H of controlling. So.......beware.

Do not fall for her accusations of you controlling. This is about her cheating, lies, and betrayal. Do not fall for guilt she may try to lay at your feet. BTW, do not give her a deadline as to her making any decision, b/c she will wait till the last minute and then claim she doesn't know what she wants.

[25yearsmlc]

Btrow

You have a DB coach. What are they telling you?

And can you answer some of the questions I asked you?

Also, I'm not sure you can "kick" her out of a room or the house. I don't know what state you are in, or what you think the law says.

You are spinning. It's not helpful.

STOP AND SLOW DOWN. Take in what we are telling you.

You can do this, but you need to process a lot more of what we are saying...