180man Thread 3

[25yearsmlc]

It's not the deciding factor?

oh 180, no offense, but of course it's not the deciding factor. First off, there's no ONE deciding factor and second, as if she'd decide that overnight.

She said she hoped you'd feel comfortable enough to return to church without worrying about her presence, so you (quickly, i might add) pressed for more. And you wanted the "more" tomorrow...And she said she wasn't sure. She's not sure. She has a lot to process. She's not going to slap her forehead and say "OMG now I get it. I do want our marriage back..."

and certainly not b/c of your many thoughtful words.

Time + consistent change = change she can believe in.

For future reference, most people in emotional circumstances cannot process more than a paragraph or two of information. There is power in the economy of words.

more is not usually better.

If we had simply been dating and she didn't show up to church, that would send me a pretty clear signal wouldn't it? Is it different somehow?


First, yes it is extremely different.

Second, if I were dating someone and I did not show up for church that I said I MIGHT attend, then there are several reasons I might not attend. IF I DID ATTEND, that is far more of a signal than me not attending is.

Third, you guys had some big marital issues and there's no way a healthy spouse would say "oh good, NOW he gets it. We should reconcile." I think you are underestimating the work & time that reconciling and piecing require.

There is no time machine that will get you back to the pre BD time. The best you can do is rebuild. I know that's hard to hear, but I swear it's true. You could have a better marriage however and I don't say that lightly. In your situation, the affair did not actually come out of nowhere. There are things you can do to cultivate the closeness and connection she so badly wanted.

Despite the A she had, you admit you had some substantive deficits.

Look, 180, I don't want to kick you when you're down. I so admire the way you own the things in your "sandbox". You will be a better h in your next r, with whomever.

But yes, most women would have felt pretty bad given the circumstances. You're a couple that may end up reconciled but I don't think either one of you is ready to resume as if...

there is work and healing to be done and much of that is usually done without the other there.


I can back off easily enough, and you're right, it's probably the best I could have hoped for...but I feel destroyed on the inside.

Why do you feel destroyed on the inside? Is it B/c of the general situation or the meeting itself? Because she responded as well as could be expected to your speech. The meeting went as well as could be reasonably expected.

In fact Better than I expected. So, is it more the generic regrets, or pain from her A, or what?


I have one good friend who is really hanging in there with me, praying for us probably more than I'm praying myself. But the other couple of friends I've told are starting to tell me to give up and see the signs and move on.

Re-read the Db book on this^^. People stop knowing what to say and they do see things as they are, IN SOME WAYS...your m was more troubled than you realized and your w had an A and says she wants out. But they also never saw or felt what happened between you two alone...all they know is your pain.

And she does want out of the marriage you had...But that is not the same as saying she will never want to make a marriage work with you,

just not this marriage. Her needs were unmet for some time, and she broke her vows.

But there was also a deep love and that may be rekindled...IN TIME.

I think her considering you her bff is excellent news. She does not hate you nor is she indifferent to you.

That is more than many here have.


What if they're right? What if SHE's right?

What if they're right? So what? I mean, what would that change for your behavioral choices? Besides, it's not knowable until more time passes so it's sort of a useless hypothetical, no offense.

It's like saying what if the Steelers win the next Super Bowl? I don't know...what if??

As for what if SHE is right...meaning what? That you are worthless and unlovable? She would not be your bff if she thought that, (plus it's not true. Self aware men who work on themselves and own their $hit, are not to be dismissed lightly. You are braver than most.)

What if she will never have romantic feelings for you again? First, it' is also not knowable at the moment

and second, if you only want romance with her and not friendship, then I guess you should cut off contact with her just to make sure you reduce the chance for... anything ---(???).

My point in all this is that I don't see why YOUR behavior would change, given that you enjoy the friendship you have and you want to build on it.

Do I think you are quick to read into and hope for more, and press for more, based on your hopes?

YES. And you may push her away too fast and too far. Slow down and read LESS into her reticence.

Your expectations are not realistic. Even if she ends up in your arms again, and she may

it's not going to be super soon and you are best off by having no expectations.

I cannot emphasize that^^ enough.

The main point of Div Busting, despite the title, is becoming better people over all.

As a result we improve all of our relationships and sometimes that includes our marriages.]

hang in there and look into a workshop for individuals (that helps all relationships in your life and does not require her attendance.) It's called Essential Experience and it's in Philadelphia. It's quite profound and it's 4 days. For me, it was more efficient than good T, b/c good T can be interrupted and fragmented when you have to return to work or pick up the kids right after you made a breakthrough.

To be clear, I believe in seeing IC's and T's. I'm just saying you seem to need a jumpstart and imo, 3-4 workshops that are intense, tend to produce results and action plans and breakthroughs, faster and more dramatically.

There's a website for it. I assume you are seeing someone, right?

Hang in there 180, you are more self aware than many here. A LOT of LBSers simply blame the affair for all the problems and deflect from their own roles

and get nowhere fast. You're in a different situation so there's more hope.

((( )))

[MoveFrwd]

You continue to touch the stove that we're telling you is hot and you come away burned. At some point, youve got to learn that it's hot!

There's no way you can tell me that your expectations were at zero at that you had this meeting to 'say what you needed to say'. And that's why you are crushednow. Your Hail Mary pass was batted down in the end zone.

I agree with Thornton. Stop focusing so much on you and seriously do a 180. As 25 said, you need time and consistency.

Keep your chin up and press forward.

[180Man]

180,

Relationship talks when the WAS is distancing never turn out well. Believe nothing she tells you right now.

I'n my honest opinion, you have to back off and go dark my friend. Let her wonder about you. You told her what you needed to say and she didn't come around. That's ok.

Both times I got my WAW back was with complete and total no contact. She wanted out and I respected her decision (and I'm doing it now as well).

Perhaps the best way to show her you love her is by giving her what she wants to be happy. She wants space? Give her more space than she ever asked for. Let her wonder if you are moving on.

I know my advice goes against every fiber in your being. It does for me too. But you have to back off man. It's crucial in my opinion.

I'll find out shortly what happens at church, but I think you're probably right. Not only does it go against every fiber in my being, but I also feel pressure from our timeline. She deploys very soon and will be gone two weeks a month in-between now and then. Once she deploys, she's gone for eight months! Granted, that alone/deployed time will be good thinking time for her, but...in the mean time our D will continue and I guess I'll have to sell the house. I don't care about the house or the stuff and would honestly rather not look at any of it if this is all going to end, but if there's a chance that things might turn around it would be nice not to lose it. On the other hand, the market is up right now and we would both make a good amount by selling it, regardless of what happens between us. I am perfectly happy to start over somewhere fresh and new with her, I have read that moving to new surroundings can make things easier.

It's not the deciding factor?

oh 180, no offense, but of course it's not the deciding factor. First off, there's no ONE deciding factor and second, as if she'd decide that overnight.

She said she hoped you'd feel comfortable enough to return to church without worrying about her presence, so you (quickly, i might add) pressed for more. And you wanted the "more" tomorrow...And she said she wasn't sure. She's not sure. She has a lot to process. She's not going to slap her forehead and say "OMG now I get it. I do want our marriage back..."

and certainly not b/c of your many thoughtful words.

Time + consistent change = change she can believe in.

For future reference, most people in emotional circumstances cannot process more than a paragraph or two of information. There is power in the economy of words.

more is not usually better.

No, no offense taken at all. I'm here to get positive AND negative feedback so I can look at myself and adjust accordingly. What's the point otherwise, right? Okay, good point on Less is More, I'll try to keep that in mind for the future. I suppose you're right, that forehead slap was a good illustration that I needed to hear. Okay, time is going to happen either way, got it. So then my question becomes...if my wife thinks we're well suited as best friends and partners but failed together romantically, how do I show her consistent change in a department that requires being together? If I was an alcoholic or drug addict, she could see that I had stopped using, but showing her that I can cherish her romantically is much more elusive to me....and I'm pretty sure a rufie is not the way to go, though I would not be against getting drunk with her, I think that would help break down some walls.

If we had simply been dating and she didn't show up to church, that would send me a pretty clear signal wouldn't it? Is it different somehow?


First, yes it is extremely different.

Second, if I were dating someone and I did not show up for church that I said I MIGHT attend, then there are several reasons I might not attend. IF I DID ATTEND, that is far more of a signal than me not attending is.

Third, you guys had some big marital issues and there's no way a healthy spouse would say "oh good, NOW he gets it. We should reconcile." I think you are underestimating the work & time that reconciling and piecing require.

There is no time machine that will get you back to the pre BD time. The best you can do is rebuild. I know that's hard to hear, but I swear it's true. You could have a better marriage however and I don't say that lightly. In your situation, the affair did not actually come out of nowhere. There are things you can do to cultivate the closeness and connection she so badly wanted.

Despite the A she had, you admit you had some substantive deficits.

Look, 180, I don't want to kick you when you're down. I so admire the way you own the things in your "sandbox". You will be a better h in your next r, with whomever.

But yes, most women would have felt pretty bad given the circumstances. You're a couple that may end up reconciled but I don't think either one of you is ready to resume as if...

there is work and healing to be done and much of that is usually done without the other there.

Okay, good points, that helps me understand more. Thank you. Yes, I probably am underestimating the work and time required. I suppose the timeline bit I mentioned above regarding her deployment really scares me. And as much as I hate to admit it, I am a "millennial" and maybe I'm just not well conditioned for patience. My wife and I have young kids working for us, you know, 18, 19, 20 years old, and some of the shít that comes out of their mouths really blows us away. We think...are we really millennials too? Like one of her guys started complaining that his rifle was too heavy and he didn't want to stand watch anymore on account of it. I am so glad I wasn't there to hear that. But, likewise, I probably am saying things here which wiser people are having similar reactions to. So, I suppose I say this simply to say...when I bítch about my rifle being too heavy, I need to hear the harsh criticism that will set me straight. Whether my feelings like it or not doesn't matter.

I suppose you're right, I guess we are not there yet. And regardless of what may or may not be happening with OM, if she still has to see her failure at work every day that cannot be helping. And if she's not viewing it as a failure, if she still has an emotional or physical connection to him, that's also going to prevent anything good from happening between us. I think OM is leaving the command in about 6-8 weeks and moving to the opposite side of the globe. Good news, but I wish it was sooner. I still consider telling OM's wife, but am very conflicted. The 180man that showed up to see her yesterday was one of patience, understanding, and love...turning around and breaking up a family would be seen by my W as a terrible transgression, as ironic as that may be.

I can back off easily enough, and you're right, it's probably the best I could have hoped for...but I feel destroyed on the inside.

Why do you feel destroyed on the inside? Is it B/c of the general situation or the meeting itself? Because she responded as well as could be expected to your speech. The meeting went as well as could be reasonably expected.

In fact Better than I expected. So, is it more the generic regrets, or pain from her A, or what?

I suppose it's because of all of the above? Maybe I'm just too much of a softie and let my emotions get the best of me. You are right, and I need to hear that -- It did go very well given the circumstances. I guess I am falsely expecting to go from 0 to 88mph in a snap and need to understand that this will take months or years. I miss her terribly, there is no other way to say it.

I have one good friend who is really hanging in there with me, praying for us probably more than I'm praying myself. But the other couple of friends I've told are starting to tell me to give up and see the signs and move on.

Re-read the Db book on this^^. People stop knowing what to say and they do see things as they are, IN SOME WAYS...your m was more troubled than you realized and your w had an A and says she wants out. But they also never saw or felt what happened between you two alone...all they know is your pain.

And she does want out of the marriage you had...But that is not the same as saying she will never want to make a marriage work with you,

just not this marriage. Her needs were unmet for some time, and she broke her vows.

But there was also a deep love and that may be rekindled...IN TIME.

I think her considering you her bff is excellent news. She does not hate you nor is she indifferent to you.

That is more than many here have.

I didn't think of it in this way and I guess I don't have enough perspective to see that we are more fortunate than others. I don't want the marriage we had, either. I would like to date her again and get married all over again and start fresh. Maybe it sounds silly, but I've had that thought many times. So I guess I just need to start by building on the friendship? Avoid talking about the past issues now that I've said my bit and rekindle that friendship? How do I do that while also going dark? If I go completely dark, she may interpret that as hate or anger toward her...?

What if they're right? What if SHE's right?

What if they're right? So what? I mean, what would that change for your behavioral choices? Besides, it's not knowable until more time passes so it's sort of a useless hypothetical, no offense.

It's like saying what if the Steelers win the next Super Bowl? I don't know...what if??

As for what if SHE is right...meaning what? That you are worthless and unlovable? She would not be your bff if she thought that, (plus it's not true. Self aware men who work on themselves and own their $hit, are not to be dismissed lightly. You are braver than most.)

What if she will never have romantic feelings for you again? First, it' is also not knowable at the moment

and second, if you only want romance with her and not friendship, then I guess you should cut off contact with her just to make sure you reduce the chance for... anything ---(???).

My point in all this is that I don't see why YOUR behavior would change, given that you enjoy the friendship you have and you want to build on it.

Do I think you are quick to read into and hope for more, and press for more, based on your hopes?

YES. And you may push her away too fast and too far. Slow down and read LESS into her reticence.

Your expectations are not realistic. Even if she ends up in your arms again, and she may

it's not going to be super soon and you are best off by having no expectations.

I cannot emphasize that^^ enough.

The main point of Div Busting, despite the title, is becoming better people over all.

As a result we improve all of our relationships and sometimes that includes our marriages.]

hang in there and look into a workshop for individuals (that helps all relationships in your life and does not require her attendance.) It's called Essential Experience and it's in Philadelphia. It's quite profound and it's 4 days. For me, it was more efficient than good T, b/c good T can be interrupted and fragmented when you have to return to work or pick up the kids right after you made a breakthrough.

To be clear, I believe in seeing IC's and T's. I'm just saying you seem to need a jumpstart and imo, 3-4 workshops that are intense, tend to produce results and action plans and breakthroughs, faster and more dramatically.

There's a website for it. I assume you are seeing someone, right?

Hang in there 180, you are more self aware than many here. A LOT of LBSers simply blame the affair for all the problems and deflect from their own roles

and get nowhere fast. You're in a different situation so there's more hope.

((( )))

Reticence. I learned a new word today! Thank you for the compliments and the feedback. If you haven't noticed already, I spend a lot of time over-thinking things. It's something I've always struggled with and I think my engineering education made it worse. I am laid back most of the time but when I have a test or an oral examination I stress out a ton. My wife never enjoyed seeing me in that state when I had to prepare for something like that. I would sit in my office with tons of flashcards and just beat myself up for days trying to get all of the information into my head. And then I would worry about how hard the examiner would be, what areas they would focus on, and what their expectations were. I wonder if I am doing the same thing now, except now I'm studying for my marriage and freaking out because my wife is the examiner. Okay, I need to slow down and read less into her reticence. Deep breath. Okay.

It had not occurred to me that such a workshop even existed or that I should attend one. I looked it up, I will plan to attend. Thank you for the recommendation. I do have an IC I see once a week and she is very nice and it's a good place to vent, but I don't know how much "progress" I'm making there. When I ask her what she thinks about something and she turns it around on me and says "Well, what do you think about it?" I always call her out. Look, I see the psychological techniques you're trying to use, I really just need you to talk to me like a normal person. She's good about it and usually turns it off, but...again, I'm not sure how much progress I'm making. I don't need someone to hear what I say, rearrange the words, and repeat it back to me. That's stupid. But maybe I would make more progress if I allowed her to just do her psychological thing and see what happens.

Thank you so much for all of your feedback, both good and bad. I needed it.

You continue to touch the stove that we're telling you is hot and you come away burned. At some point, youve got to learn that it's hot!

There's no way you can tell me that your expectations were at zero at that you had this meeting to 'say what you needed to say'. And that's why you are crushednow. Your Hail Mary pass was batted down in the end zone.

I agree with Thornton. Stop focusing so much on you and seriously do a 180. As 25 said, you need time and consistency.

Keep your chin up and press forward.

Yeah, you're right. I didn't look at it as a hail mary thinking she would just move back in tomorrow, but I guess I was looking for more than I should have been. 25 is right, it was the best reaction I could have hoped for. I did a good job saying what I needed to say, we needed this to move forward regardless of what happens, and now I need to get back to focusing on me for a while.

When is it okay to reach out to her? If I go completely dark, I understand that isn't in the playbook, but I'm not sure that completely dark is right for us. She needs space and time and I am realizing I guess I need it as well. I guess I don't need to answer this right now. Right now I just need to get ready for church, come home, do some chores, have dinner with some friends, and move on to the next day. This one day at a time thing is getting really tiring...

[180Man]

Didn't see her at church

[25yearsmlc]

Didn't see her at church

and ^^that is okay. Truly. It would have really surprised me if she had gone to the same service.

For now, be a man only a fool would leave. Back off...that's pretty much what she asked you to do and you want to show that you respect her boundaries and her choice.

How long is the deployment? And do you know where she'd get assigned after? And you?

Don't get bogged down in these questions, I'm just trying to assess your strategy.

[180Man]

Didn't see her at church

and ^^that is okay. Truly. It would have really surprised me if she had gone to the same service.

For now, be a man only a fool would leave. Back off...that's pretty much what she asked you to do and you want to show that you respect her boundaries and her choice.

How long is the deployment? And do you know where she'd get assigned after? And you?

Don't get bogged down in these questions, I'm just trying to assess your strategy.

Okay, I will try. I got baptized today. I have been thinking about it for years. I almost didn't do it. But I decided it was time.

No worries on the questions, these are all things I've thought of many times. Her deployment is 8 months, she could choose to get assigned pretty much anywhere. Last I heard from her mother she was thinking about Europe. She can also opt to only do part of the deployment and take new orders sooner. Her job is a coveted position and since she has ticked all the check boxes during her time there, they're happy to rotate her and get someone else that experience on their resume.

I have another year and a half here. At that point I could ask to extend another year until my commitment is up or I could try taking a set of 1 year orders somewhere. Not sure if Europe is on the table for my profession/service/timing, but it may be possible. I have been applying to a couple of different programs which would get my career back on track. None of the programs would take me to Europe, unfortunately, and one of the programs is a lateral transfer to another service altogether. I could also get out and go to a reserve/guard unit, that's an option. None of these programs would result in moving for at least six months to a year.

[180Man]

Didn't see her at church

and ^^that is okay. Truly. It would have really surprised me if she had gone to the same service.

Thank you, I needed to hear this.

[LITB]

180,

I can assure that you are gonna be alright. Keep working in a positive direction and continous self-improvement.

You had a positive meeting with your W. Like 25 said, better than expected. Keep building off those interactions and keep your patience in tact.

Slow is fast and fast is slow. Pay attention to detail, recognize and address. If you skip steps because of impatience, it really slows your progress down.

Hope that makes sense.

[LITB]

I failed to congratulate you on being baptized. What a blessing to be baptized on Easter.

[180Man]

180,

I can assure that you are gonna be alright. Keep working in a positive direction and continous self-improvement.

You had a positive meeting with your W. Like 25 said, better than expected. Keep building off those interactions and keep your patience in tact.

Slow is fast and fast is slow. Pay attention to detail, recognize and address. If you skip steps because of impatience, it really slows your progress down.

Hope that makes sense.

Yes, it does make sense. Funny you should mention that saying, when I was a new guy getting trained the instructors would tell us the same thing. Then I got to instructing and passed the same advice along: Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast.

I failed to congratulate you on being baptized. What a blessing to be baptized on Easter.

Thank you. Yes, it felt right. It was finally time for me. The pastor who I have confided in regarding my situation did it with me.

Thanks to everyone for the advice and encouragement. It helps me make it through the day. For me, having a plan or at least some semblance of a plan really helps me from going nuts. I thought her coming to church or not was the end of it all, but you guys have helped me realize that there's more to this. I stress over what it might be like to be in her shoes, what she may be thinking, etc, but it's probably not a very healthy exercise.

Really wish we could all just go have a beer for a couple hours sometime, that'd be nice wouldn't it?