Same Sitch. New Approach. Motivated. Feeling Good.

[Gordie]

That's so awesome. I am really rooting for you. And congratulations on a great birthday dinner. You are inspiring.

[Chris73]

Thanks Gordie. I'll take the support wherever I can get it

[Gordie]

But really, what qualifies as "backfiring?" What does "failure" look like for me? If I end up divorced, co-parenting, and contributing 75% of my paycheck to my W and kids, is THAT failure? And what about all the folks on this board who tried the tough love approach only to end up with this very result. Did they fail? I would say no, across the board. Failure to me is simply not trying. Everyone here is trying. We read the books and post on this board. We employ critical introspection in an attempt to fix and improve ourselves. Emerging as a stronger and healthier person from this challenging time, whether it results in a reconciliation or a divorce, is a success as far as I'm concerned.

I love this. I think the thing with the tough love vs. kill them with kindness approach? There of course is no right answer. I think DB approach is do what works; stop doing what doesn't work. And only you are in your shoes with your own conscience. To me, failure used to be D in any form, but I'm accepting that as you said, it's not. To me in my situation, failure is if my W and I are dishonest with one another or hate each other or can't stand to be in one another's presence and that our children experience a hot or a cold war for the next several decades. I can only control what I do, but really don't want that to happen. And winning? I guess my definition on that is expanding too. Of course, it could be busting the divorce or reconciling after divorce. But what if we wind up just as friends either as singles or remarried to other people? I used to count that as loss...but I guess I'm warming up to the idea that maybe that can be a win too, different than the life I'd planned, but a win nonetheless...as SBJ said, "Thy will be done..."

[PacLove]

PacLove--that is awesome and inspiring but what many on the boards would call being a doormat or enabling cake eating. What do you think?

Chris - hope I'm not thread hijacking here but since I saw some great responses from you too think this is inline...

I like Chris and many others on here tried the tough love at first, now that W has come out of the Fog her first feedback to me was that I was being difficult and that I was pouring fuel on the fire of our relationship that was already suffering before the A. As a result I have a much deeper hole to dig myself out of (as does she).

I do think it's a very fine line though - you need to have boundaries where W is disrespecting you. A good example could be if she's picking a fight for no reason - instead of giving in, you could just turn away and say I'm not fighting with you right now.

Another example in my recent discussions with my W is that she's been trying to convince me to sell some of our assets and I basically turned to her and said I'm not making any big decisions until we decide on our future - I made too many of those already in the last year.

At the same time I've been working really hard at being a friend. A friend doesn't need to know where their friends are 24x7, they are there for you usually when needed, but not always if they have other plans.

I also think there's a fine line and a turning point... let me explain:

The fine line is when they are actively involved with someone else - here you need to be guarded with boundaries. You need to accept they are making choices you don't agree with - and there will be some consequences - for me it was not sharing the same bed. When she moved out and wanted to keep finances separate I drew up an agreement so we were both accountable to our financial obligations.

The turning point - and this is a tough one as you may not know when it is - is when they give up the OM. At this point they will be turning to you to see what their options are - this is, I believe, when you want to ease up on the boundaries a little and show more compassion and friendship. If you're Christian - I would remind you of the story of the Prodigal Son. Where the Father welcomes the lost son in with open arms. This won't be one moment - and your W could be assessing your behavior over months as she's trying to figure out her options and what she wants. The better friend you can be during this time will improve your odds.

Now friendship - especially if you have kids - can never be a bad outcome. I have talked with many people who have gone through a D and when kids are involved they all recommend trying to establish a healthy friendship for the sake of the children and co-parenting.

I similarly find it somewhat biased on these boards towards the tough love side, however much of the online reading I've done, books, MWD herself and the coaches, guide towards being a friend. I think in the end there's less damage to the relationship - the only question is how much damage do you do to your own self esteem/confidence in the process? As long as you can remain confident, change for the better and be the Man you want to be (and not what your wife wants) we are heading in the right direction.

[Chris73]

Chris - hope I'm not thread hijacking here but since I saw some great responses from you too think this is inline...

Not a hijack at all. I'm glad to have an open discussion here.

...now that W has come out of the Fog her first feedback to me was that I was being difficult and that I was pouring fuel on the fire of our relationship that was already suffering before the A. As a result I have a much deeper hole to dig myself out of (as does she).

I found this to be the case with my W as well, although I wish I could say that she's come out of her fog.

The deciding factor for me was understanding what MY contribution was to the deterioration of our marriage. Once I realized that in her eyes, pulling back, being short with my words, doing my own thing, not starting conversations, treating her like a "nosey neighbor" and being very forceful with my boundaries (e.g. "If you're not happy then YOU should move out. This is my bed. If you're not comfortable sleeping in it, there's the couch", etc.) was really just more of the same behavior from me. So not only did my actions serve to reinforce her decision to leave, but it also created a hostile environment in our home and in front of our two children. I could not let that continue.

In addition to this, the other major complaint from my W over the years has always been that I don't take any initiative or responsibility for the house and the family. I took on the role of the 3rd child in the family, making the assumption that going to work and bringing home a paycheck was all I was required to do. This is not to say that I wouldn't help when asked, but she eventually burned out being the only one responsible for managing everything.

So here you have a self-centered, self-absorbed baby-man, who never really grew up and took responsibility for anything. My W simply replaced my mother. Did my W enable this behavior? Absolutely. Was choosing to have an A as a reaction to being unhappy a bad decision? Of course.

But regardless of who did what, the problems on my side need fixing. Will fixing them save my marriage? The jury is still out on that one. But the fixing needs to happen anyway. So MY 180 is to put myself last. Do things for my W and my family that have no expectations attached to them. Be aggressive in taking on projects and responsibilities around the house. Be happy, encouraging, and generally interested in my W and what she's up to. Be helpful. Treat her the way I want to be treated. Meanwhile, I don't pursue or discuss the relationship at all. And when I start to feel resentful or burned out, I turn to my GAL activities.

The changes I've seen are minor but they're noticeable. For one thing she comes home after work more often. I attribute this partially to the fact that she feels more comfortable in our house when I'm around. A few months ago she insisted that we establish a schedule so that we don't share a lot of time together with the kids (in an effort to "prepare" them for separation). This isn't happening anymore, our family time is a lot more spontaneous and doesn't adhere to a strict "visitation" schedule. She volunteers more information about where she's going and who she's with. Of course I don't trust that she's being totally honest. But it's way better than, "I'm going out," with no additional explanation.

So I guess my point is that right now I'm very much at peace with how I'm moving forward.

[sandi2]

I suspect this may be the reason why some of the board vets like Sandi2 have not contributed to my posts over the past month. In their eyes, why should they continue to give me advice when I'm not taking it?

Chris, you used my name in the title of two threads......and that's fine. Whenever my name is used in the heading of someone's thread, I am humbled. I also know it draws attention.........especially when it states something like the great Sandi2 experiment. .
People want to see if the experiment worked....and if they can rely on what Sandi says. I can't remember if it was in the first thread or in part 2 with the same title, where you said you just didn't have it in you to apply a tougher love approach with your WW. If that is how a poster feels, I respect their decision, b/c it's their life to live, not mine.

I'll admit for almost two seconds, it did feel like a little slam, when I first saw the title of your next thread..... "Up Yours,, Sandi".......(jk) It really said, "Same Stitch, New Approach, Motivated, Feeling Good". .

If I may, I want to go on record as saying that my purpose for being on this forum is not for personal recognition, popularity, or whatever. Neither am I in any sort of competition with the advice of DB coaches. This is not my board, it belongs to MWD.

With all of that said, I wanted you to know that I still care, and have continued to read your thread, Chris. I have just remained quite, b/c I didn't want you to feel as if I was pressing you about something you didn't want to hear. As you've plainly stated, you are not taking my advice......so I'm not sure how to help you.

[Chris73]

Hi Sandi2. Thanks for the response.

From the very first time that I read your posts (jeez like 4 months ago now) there was no doubt in my mind that you are sincere in your efforts to help, support, and share your knowledge with the rest of us on this board. A lot of what you have advised me to do has been helpful and I still employ those strategies today.

But please understand that I evaluate the advice that I glean from ALL the resources around me. This board being one but also the DB books, DB phone coaching, other reference materials, my therapist, the close friends that I've confided in, the reverend at my church, and most importantly my own heart.

"The Great Sandi2 Experiment" didn't fail, it just wasn't suited for me. Perhaps I was interpreting it wrong. Perhaps there's only a subtle difference between the things I'm doing now and the things I was trying to do when I was posting to that thread. All I know is, until the day when I decided to drop all the problems and try to reconnect with my W as a friend, I was miserable, angry, resentful, and full of fear. Clearly this is not the outcome any of us are looking for.

Bottom line Sandi2 is that you HAVE helped me a great deal. I still refer to the 37 rules for guidance and I still read your responses on other folks' threads to get your perspective. Thank you for your tireless efforts to help this community.

[fightin]

But regardless of who did what, the problems on my side need fixing. Will fixing them save my marriage? The jury is still out on that one. But the fixing needs to happen anyway. So MY 180 is to put myself last. Do things for my W and my family that have no expectations attached to them. Be aggressive in taking on projects and responsibilities around the house. Be happy, encouraging, and generally interested in my W and what she's up to. Be helpful. Treat her the way I want to be treated. Meanwhile, I don't pursue or discuss the relationship at all. And when I start to feel resentful or burned out, I turn to my GAL activities.

YAY! I haven't checked in with you for a while, but I can see the change in your tone in your posts. I will say that I disagree with your line about putting yourself last by taking initiative with responsibilities and with your attitude towards your WW. I think while it might seem on the surface that you're putting yourself last that you're actually doing things that will make you genuinely feel good about yourself regardless of your W's response.

Maybe that's how you meant it, but I don't want you to sell yourself short on the benefits to yourself that these changes can provide.

So I guess my point is that right now I'm very much at peace with how I'm moving forward.

Happy for you! Keep it up!

[Chris73]

Thanks fightin. I guess what I meant is that putting myself last is part of my 180 because I have been so self-absorbed for so long. But you're right, it's more about putting my ego on the back burner than anything else. Thanks for the kind words.

[WillDo]

Chris73 did your wife sleep in a different room? How do you cope?