Help - Setting Boundaries, WW in EA - Thread #3

[Woke_Up]

Journaling, as this is the only place where my thoughts are private and safe:

Train was late due to storm so missed my Krav training session, went home. W had bathed D5 and she was in W's bed ready for story. W left the room, I did the stories and her school reading with her, got her settled down to sleep. Interaction with W was minimal, but no unpleasantness.

Went out and picked up SS16, took him to his grandma's to stay as he has his job on Fridays.

Got home, W in utility room smoking a joint. She looks in through window and smiles at me, but I think she was just checking I wasn't snooping at her phone which was charging. She talked a little bit about the storm, and D5 being stroppy with her. My personal thoughts are that D5 is picking up bad lessons from W's and my interactions. Sad.

She went upstairs, then asked me to move D5 from her bed into D's room. I did. I almost snooped at her phone but stopped myself 2 digits into the pass code. Minor victory.

I tidied up downstairs, then went to W's room to get my new gumshield which D5 had opened and been playing with. Said thanks and good night. W said good night, reasonably pleasantly. I'm just working on keeping the interactions pleasant and detached - friendly house guest.

I still feel the fear of not knowing how she is going to be when I am around, when things will suddenly escalate out of nowhere. If the kids weren't around, I feel I would be able to cope with this much more positively, but then again, maybe I would also lose my patience more often?

4 goals -

1. Clear the debts. still have some credit cards left from last house when we built an extension. Low interest, but still hanging around.
2. Be more financially astute - religiously save the tax money and then some.
3. complete my online training within 4 weeks, and get new qualification within 8.
4. Obtain new contract closer to home - 6 months.

Still struggling to find time to GAL, think I may book myself on a horse riding lesson with D5 in the next couple of weeks.

[sandi2]

I'm concerned about your little girl. I hope you will consider counseling for her. Your WW won't put the needs of her children over her own warped sense of entitlement.

Unfortunately, I think your W has been spoiled for a long time, and I don't think it will be an easy task of turning things around. I believe it is possible.........I'm just not completely sure you have the toughness that's needed to deal with this type of person. Frankly, you have enabled her quite a bit. Now, she is so self-centered that she doesn't see the emotional destruction she's doing to her little girl.......and she is more concerned for her own comforts than being an attentive mother when she's needed in the middle of the night. If I remember correctly, she has been that way ever since having her second child.

I can understand how exhausting it can be when getting up at night. My H was good to pick up the slack when I would give out. However, the way you seem to have been assigned to the late shift to care for D5 while Miss Entitlement gets her beauty sleep just hits a nerve in my maternal instincts.

Here's what I have witnessed several times IRL, this type of spouse (who is similar to your WW) in their first marriage. You would recognize the first W/H, who tolerated it and tried to make the most of things by accommodation. Eventually, the first M would end, and a second marriage came. But the second W/H never tolerated the behavior seen in the first M. And you know what? They would have a great MR, b/c the cr@p behavior was not allowed from day one. It would be amazing to witness the transformation in the spouses from that first M.

[Woke_Up]

Ok, need to do some journaling from Friday to today, but going to start with today:

Monday:
Received a morning text from W saying she still felt ill, D had wet the bed , and W and had had a ‘terrifying & profound dream’. She asked how I was. She then sent a text saying she loved me.

I did respond – asked her to tell me about the dream, told her I was OK… and then I did respond to the ILY by saying “thank you and I love you”

No response on the terrifying dream, but she has been sending me YouTube links to TED talks and interviews by a famous Belgian psychotherapist and counsellor on infidelity and relationships. (Not sure if forum rules would allow me to give her name) I’m unsure how to respond to this. Much of the info in the videos seem in line with MWD’s thinking and writing. I want to respond but don’t know how to approach it.

What's the opinion of others in the forum? I honestly have no idea what her intent is by this? I'd love to think she was reaching some sort of revelation, but I know I can't think that way, it would be foolish to clutch at straws at this stage.

[doodler]

What's the opinion of others in the forum? I honestly have no idea what her intent is by this? I'd love to think she was reaching some sort of revelation, but I know I can't think that way, it would be foolish to clutch at straws at this stage.

Woke_Up,

I have no idea what your wife is thinking, but keep in mind that her perceptions and thoughts about the TED videos may be very different than your perceptions. She's likely still very deep in her own fog and hears what she wants to hear, and most likely it's supportive of her actions and intentions.

In short, I suspect she's attempting to keep you on the hook, while at the same time, she's attempting to justify her own thoughts and actions. I understand what she's selling, but I'm not buying.

As usual, I could be wrong...

[sandi2]

I would ask her what her thoughts were about the videos. If she responds in a positive manner, then (without getting too wordy) you could say something how you would consider seeing some more sent your way. However, I suggest you let her lead in the conversation. At times such as this, LBH'S start talking too much, and the WW will pull away. If she seems closed mouthed, then don't volunteer any of your view points, or get pushy by trying too hard to encourage her to choose a MR help program, or whatever. Just be calm, cool. & collected. She felt you out before she sent them........so wait and see how well she acts throughout the day and night. If you show any excitement over her sending the videos......or hint that it means she's back on board...... she will go cold. So, easy-does-it. Remember the squirrel.

[Woke_Up]

Thanks Doodler & Sandi

I just did a quick text back to her saying that I had managed to watch the first 3 links she sent, and what did she think of them. No response as of yet.

She sent a couple more - they were more focused on desire within M, and what goes wrong, and what needs to be done to maintain desire. I suspect she is dropping hints at my shortcomings, I won't expect that she'll be highlighting hers.

[Woke_Up]

Journaling: TLDR I'm afraid

Friday: received some texts from W, saying she wasn't happy with the results of her beauty treatments and would complain to the salon - I validated, said it was a lot of money and they should get it how you want it. She asked if I would help her write an email, so I told her to give me the key points and I would help with the words.

Read quite a bit of 5 LL on train journey home. While I think my LLs are physical touch and words of affirmation, I believe W’s are Quality Time, acts of service and receiving gifts. I tried to think back to meaningful gifts I had gotten her in the past. I remember early in our, I bought her a very old copy of Wuthering Heights (her favourite book). She loved it. I need to find that sort of caring again, rather than pandering to her ‘wants’.

She also said she had spanked D5 on the bottom. This upsets me as she has always been against hitting children. She told me about it later. D5 had been hitting her, and she had told her that if she kept doing it she would spank her, and D5 being a typical 5 year old, hit her again. SO she put her over her knee. More on this on Saturday’s journal.

On the way home, I asked if she wanted anything picking up, she said probably, but then changed her mind - when I asked if she was sure, she had a go about how I wanted joint custody, so I should stop relying on her to look after the kids. My take away is not to ask her if she's sure.. in fact don't respond to her anywhere near as much as I have been.

I ignored it, and when I got home, said nothing about it, just tried to act as if. Nothing more was said on that subject, she wanted to talk about inheritance tax, as she had seen her father, and it looks as though he and his brother had managed to get the grandparents to change the will and gift money to them as well as the house, so the grandchildren will be getting much less. Her main worry is having something to pass on to her children, from what she says.

Went to our separate rooms at bedtime, still feels strange.

[Vanilla]

Wokeup

Apologies I have been absent and triggered so finding posting in Newcombers a ltitle tough.

There are a couple of things you may want to review. I am practical rather than definitive.

1. Abuse is abuse. It has to stop, it is always wrong. Children shouldn't be in the middle of it. I have assumed that you have reviewed the Abuse thread. It's there as a resource. I will post the link.

2. There is a wonderful writer called Al Turtle who has an essay on Boundaries, it's about forts and soldiers etc. I love the way he writes as it's primarily for teenagers (at least that essay) and for the first time I got it. It is free and easily Googled.

3. You are in the UK, the courts take a very dim view of mothers and fathers who have substance problems. These can affect custody and the one with the physical custody has the greatest sway. There is an excellent ebook by Marilyn Stowe the lawyer available for free or 99p. I have used her site often.

As you are aware in the UK only if there is a police involvement is verbal abuse an issue in D fins, as the criminal is separate from the family court. This can start the non mol train which shows up even if dismissed, take this very seriously indeed. It can mean your contact with your kids is prescribed and you can lose access to your home. So not even a broken finger nail ok?

The tendency is for a spouse to be involving the police thinking it will help fins, it doesn't although it can affect the custody arrangements which affects fins indirectly.

Know where her stash is, if police involvement happens to you (false accusations), then you can say "I believe WW may be under the influence and her stash is in the garden wall behind the third brick". Otherwise always keep cool and never react. Take the blows and however much you would like to, don't restrain or resist. Record if you can, whilst doing so say stop, please stop. And don't smoke with her, if you are ever arrested, ask to have a urine or blood test and hair sample to prove you don't smoke dope. You may wish to have an L on record with these accusations. If you are in Surrey then SurreyDA are excellent especially on the new UK laws post October 2015 on coercive abuse. They run support groups and it isn't only women who suffer from verbal abuse. Other areas have help too so some research needed.

4. In the UK spouses have the right to privacy. As long as we are members of the EU, the EU human rights act applies. I will examine the decided case and post back to you. In some instances breaching this is a criminal rather than a civil offence. The rules are complex but as your WW has said you breached her privacy then you have been warned. It's serious don't do it. Those are my views.

So how you keep your diary notes is important. Seeing and keeping your spouses text messages, emails etc is very frowned on by UK divorce courts. Although you can keep notes about it. So for instance keeping a copy of your wife's will is not good, you may keep notes for instance WW told me she left everything in her will to the children etc. Or WW opened a savings account with ABC bank and set up a DD for xx.

So

abuse resource thread Vanilla and Zelda

V

[Woke_Up]

Thank you, Vanilla. You have no need to apologise, you do a lot of paying back for people on these forums.

Much to think about and research. I have started reading the abuse thread(s). Point taken about privacy and snooping. My W has been clear on this and her boundaries. I just need to be firmer on mine. I will start making more notes of what happens.

[Woke_Up]

Journaling. Saturday. TLDR again

D5 refused to go to ballet. She hasn’t wanted to go for a while now, so sadly I think that it is done for now, although she likes other dance and has other classes in the week.

I went to the builder’s yard to pick up some hinges for the 5 bar wooden gates that were delivered. Went out with D5, paid the garage for fixing my car, took D5 to city. Picked up W’s engagement ring, which was now repaired, took D5 shopping with the last of her birthday money (another Disney Moana doll!!), and took D5 for lunch again. Had a fun time with D5, I like our Saturday lunches together. Got home, gave W her ring back. She put it on initially. Later she had it on a different finger, then back on the ring finger, and then later she took it off entirely. It is still off as far as I am aware.

WW started on about the MBR again and said she was going to take it back, she needed her bed, I had stolen it. I said it was her choice to move out. She had left the MR, therefore she had left the MBR. She tried the guilt tripping, about her ruined pelvis having my child, and that it was the least I could do. She also said she would move my stuff out while I was out. I said that I would move it back in. It got a bit silly, back and forth, but I held my ground and didn’t give in. I said she could rant, but I wasn’t going to listen to it any more. Anyway, the issue has gone away for now to be dealt with another day.

Later, WW had a big session, about talking about S and wanting to make sure kids were OK, that they stay in the house. Her plan - She wants the house put in their name, and doesn’t mind who gets to live there. She even said she would leave as long as the house was in the kid’s names. She said I am just thinking about money for myself. She kept going on about psychopaths, saying her dad was a psychopath, and that he had said exactly the same thing about the house when he and her M divorced, and the judge hadn’t agreed. I was the same, apparently because I had said the same thing. In contrast, her Dad is a gambler and was mentally abusive W’s mother and physically abusive to W.

I refused to agree to any of her suggestions and said that while I wanted what was best for the kids, it had to be sensible and affordable, and if she took the house, she wouldn’t be able to afford it, and if I took the house, and had to work closer to home, it would be a lower wage, and therefore not affordable, and I didn’t want the house to be taken away as that wouldn’t help anyone. She kept asking what my plan was, and I said I didn’t have one. She said it was what I wanted wasn’t it, to get the house – I said no, I didn’t want S. She asked why – I probably screwed up, but I said that because I loved her, and hoped that someday we could get to a place where reconciliation was possible. I said it was her choice to leave the R, not mine – she disagreed pointing to what I had said about not being in R. I said that she had already left it when he crossed the line with OM.

I had to keep asking her not to do this in front of D5 but she said that she never saw me otherwise and we never talked. I had never talked to her anyway. I tried to do a lot of validation when she was pointing out the problems in our R pre- BD, but I said that I was 50% responsible for the issues. She said she thought it was much more me than her. I disagreed and didn’t let her get away with that. She asked for examples and I had to give her some examples of what I felt was wrong from her side. I mentioned the aggressiveness, controlling, insults and belittling, etc. I didn’t want to do this, but was on the spot.

Later, I went out to get stuff for dinner, W asked me to pick her some stuff up, which I did. She asked me to hurry as D5 was having a whinging session. Got home to find she had spanked D5 again. Later that evening or Sunday, not sure) she said she wasn’t going to spank D5 any more, as D5 was laughing about it. I agreed that it wouldn’t work, and that we should try other means so she doesn’t act up for the attention.
I don’t think she can see the issue that she grew up being physically punished and the effect it had on her. Spanking a 5 yr old only teaches them that force acts as a means to control, nothing else. I’m glad W has realised it won’t work quite quickly or we would have had a major issue on our hands.

At dinner, D5 mentioned that Daddy was going to go riding with her. W said what about her, she would like to go. So when I make the booking, should I invite W along? i.e. She is welcome to join us?

After dinner, I got a bath ready for D5 and W, then said I would go out to look for hinges (builders yard had supplied wrong type) and paint for the gates then pick up SS16 while she bathed D5.

SS16 was going to be a little late - Foolishly messaged W to let her know and she had a mini rant about how she thought I had sorted it out and seemed like I was doing it on purpose. That she thought I wanted joint custody (again) but seems like I can’t stand to do the job. I ignored the rant and just said I wouldn’t be long. Got home, no spew.

OK, now it gets weird and I broke all the rules: Later that evening, she came to me in the kitchen, said she felt strange, that it was like she was living in a dream, or groundhog day, and that she needed a hug. She hugged me, so I reciprocated. She talked about her bad back again – I offered for her to sleep in the MBR if she wanted, no strings, but she said the sheets weren’t clean enough for her (which was a good reminder for me, I changed them later). After that, we were pleasant to each other, reasonably touchy feely. She wanted me to make her laugh, so I did. Upstairs, we were still touchy feely, flirty and then got intimate. I initiated. She had been worried about SS16 downstairs hearing, so I said they wouldn’t hear in the MBR. I had thought she was just making excuses, but she got up and went to the MBR, and ML. She stayed a while, we laughed a bit more, but she didn’t stay the night, she went back to her room. It was a pleasant enough time, but I know I am just reaching out physically in the hope of building an emotional connection. Plus my interactions were pursuing...