A lot of people here talk about "garnering respect" from their wives, by a Man... I'd be curious how one delineates "controlling" from "boundaries" I've struggled with this along my journey as I know my wife would say that I was someone that had to be in control of most aspects in our lives.
So how does one garner the respect without appearing to be controlling? (Sandi2 hoping you'll chime in on this one ;-)
I wonder if the controlling thing in most cases for a WW is code for "we are married on paper only and I can do what I want...I don't owe you anything." I only say this because my wife was DEFINITELY the boss in our relationship, and I was a veritable doormat in an effort to keep her happy (which in hindsight was probably a bad idea because somewhere along the way she lost respect for me). She still likes to claim during this whole process that I am too controlling because I would ask where she was or if she was ok when she stayed out late. Or complain when she started texting/hanging out with new people and doing new things (one of whom was the OM). In other words, show concern regarding serious red flags in any relationship...what any normal, rational person would do.
In a nutshell, don't beat yourself up if they call you controlling...unless it was something they talked about pre-waywardness, it's not really an issue. It should be your clue that you haven't detached enough though.
Hi Fightin, I am really glad you brought up that situation about her saying all those things, and yet, she continued her betrayal. If she is a WW, then she is operating from her emotions.....which are currently in overdrive. The foundation and motivator of her decisions is not love, integrity, values, or any of the sound based decision making principles she may have used in the past. It is all about her and what she wants in that moment. However she benefits the most......whatever makes her feel better........and whoever feeds her ego the most, are the current guidelines for decisions. It is not about her giving. It is all about what she can receive.
Although she was crying and apologizing, and even said she was ashamed of herself.........it was not the remorseful & repentant type that we think of when a spouse truely wants to make things right and have another chance in the M. The type that can humble a wayward heart enough to stop what she is doing that caused the destruction in the first place.
If she says the words, but continues the hurtful action........she is not coming from a place of remorse. A WW can be very emotional about leaving the spouse, but at the same time.......make everything revolve around herself. Yes, your W was emotional. Her behavior, looks of confusion, and words all came from her emotions. When all was said and done, her selfishness won out again.
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She kept saying how hard it was to see all of my things packed and how she never imagined us here in this situation. She told me she does in fact love me and I stated simply that I don't what she means by that anymore. As a friend? Like a family member? She just looked hurt when I said those things and said she isn't sure how she feels about anything really. After that they left.
If you'll look back at your post, you will see how she placed herself in the center of everything in the conversations. Her feelings. Her wants. It was too hard for her to be around you. It made her hurt and reminded her, etc. This is not uncommon for some WW's. In her way of thinking, she didn't really want to see you suffer, and wishes everyone could remain the best of friends. But her thinking is twisted and all she hears are her emotions.
If you have an occasion to hear her apologize from a remorseful heart, I believe you will see a humbleness in her. It won't be a mess of confusion. It won't be self-centered. There will be no justifying comments. But whatever she says in the form of an authentic apology for what she has done to you, then you should be able to see if her words lines up with her actions.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Thank you, sandi2! That clarifies a lot for me and was basically what I was expecting, but of course my little heart still wants to hang on to some sort of hope. I'm still working toward fully letting go and I'm aware I still have far to go in that matter. I do see how all the statements were centered around her and how it made her feel.
Thanks again!
Me: 35 W: 32 MR: 2y T: 3.5y SS11 BD: 11/3/16 EA: 10/26/16 PA: 11/11/16 W asks for S/D & ILYBINILWY 11/13/16 Status: I moved out 11/19/16, GAL I filed for D: 12/14/16 D-day: 3/10/17
sandi -I just read what you posted to fighting, however, my w came out with the I'm sorry I've been thinking a lot, I love you, I miss you, we are meant to be together, she made a mistake she wants to take back but is scared of what "others" will think and that she still needs to decide what's best for her & D10. all of course 7+ months after BD. W is still seeing OW, so yes similar to fighting "sorrys" but actions are still of betrayal. w has recently asked numerous times what I want and asked If I hate her. W is very interested in my life and what I'm doing. I want to believe my W is actually remorseful but of course I want to think that. I have not told my W i love her or miss her. I'm basically stressing out and am overwhelemed with her
When do we actaully know? I understand the remorse and the apologies have to come with actions. is that it? No actions, no M? No way to "encourage" the actions? I'm completely at a loss as to what to do in my stich now. thanks! -cheesyt
A lot of people here talk about "garnering respect" from their wives, by a Man... I'd be curious how one delineates "controlling" from "boundaries" I've struggled with this along my journey as I know my wife would say that I was someone that had to be in control of most aspects in our lives.
So how does one garner the respect without appearing to be controlling? (Sandi2 hoping you'll chime in on this one ;-)
I wonder if the controlling thing in most cases for a WW is code for "we are married on paper only and I can do what I want...I don't owe you anything." I only say this because my wife was DEFINITELY the boss in our relationship, and I was a veritable doormat in an effort to keep her happy (which in hindsight was probably a bad idea because somewhere along the way she lost respect for me). She still likes to claim during this whole process that I am too controlling because I would ask where she was or if she was ok when she stayed out late. Or complain when she started texting/hanging out with new people and doing new things (one of whom was the OM). In other words, show concern regarding serious red flags in any relationship...what any normal, rational person would do.
In a nutshell, don't beat yourself up if they call you controlling...unless it was something they talked about pre-waywardness, it's not really an issue. It should be your clue that you haven't detached enough though.
Two cards the WW plays the most are the "guilt card" and the "control card". She will try to make the LBH feel guilty as a way to manipulate him. If he sets a boundary, she screams that he's controlling. LBS need not to explain where he stands or expound on what he said. The WW is using these cards to manipulate and get her way. The H needs to ignore these accusations.
I feel there may some who do not fully understand boundaries in a M. I can see how it could be misinterpreted as trying to control the other spouse. First of all, control is all about your spouse, and what she does, what she feels, etc. Control is keeping track of where she is every hour, who she talked to.......on & on. If she does not do it your way, then you punish her by giving the silent treatment, yelling at her or whatever. Control comes from fear; co-dependency; anger; inferiority; ...........on & on.
Boundaries are all about you. Boundaries are your limits. They are set in place by you...to protect you.....emotionally, mentally, & physically. Boundaries come from self-respect; dignity; freedom; values; integrity; & protection. They are not used to control or punish the your W for not choosing to do things your way.
Since honoring your boundary requires respect from the WW.........simply stating your boundary, may not be enough. Whatever your WW is doing that is hurting you, the benefits she receives for violating your boundary may outweigh respecting your boundary. (WW's are very resistant to the H's boundaries). So at this point, you need to enforce consequences. I did a little homework on the subject, so the list below reflects what I read.
A consequence is an effect, or result, of another action from you. You need to establish an appropriate consequence for your WW's disrespect, so that she will experience some type of discomfort due to her total negligence/irresponsibility of your boundary. Otherwise, your boundary will not be effective. A consequence needs to have some very important characteristics:
1. Boundaries and consequences are not about fixing your spouse, or making her choose better. They are about allowing appropriate cause and effect so that she will experience the pain of irresponsibility, and then change. 2. Be deliberate and not impulsive........or set in anger. Think it through, and maybe post on the board to get other view points of what an appropriate effect might be. It is not about getting even. It is about getting out of enabling the wayward spouse, and about protecting yourself from her wayward behavior. 3. Make sure this is something you can and will do. You need to make sure you have the power and resources to set the limit. Don't make threats. 4. Remember your spouse has freedom of choice. Don’t set a consequence by saying, “You have to,” “You must,” or, “I will make you. . . .” Consequences are not something you do to control your spouse. They are reactions to her choices. Let her make her choices, but prepare your reactions. 5. The consequence should be immediate as possible. Just as kids need quick consequences, so does your WW. She can make the association between her action and the results if they are close together in time. 6. You want reality to be your WW's instructor, as much as possible. For example, a WW who becomes enraged should have her H and children leave her presence for a while. No one wants to be around her when she's having tantrums. This is preferable to an unrelated consequence, such as leaving her alone to watch the kids an extra evening while you go out to GAL. 7. Stay away from humiliating or punitive consequences such as making fun of her or making sarcastic remarks. 8. Consequences don’t have to be forever. As your WW owns and repents, you can change the consequences. However, be sure that change has truly occurred over some period of time. Just saying “I’m sorry” is not enough to let go of consequences. The other side of this, however, is that you may have to escalate the severity of the consequence if your WW behaves worse.
I hope this will help someone in understanding the difference in boundaries vs control, and also consequences vs punishment.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Hi Cheesyt, I am not up to date about your situation, so my answers may seem rather general. However, I believe it would answer or explain the mindset of your WW.
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my w came out with the I'm sorry I've been thinking a lot, I love you, I miss you, we are meant to be together, she made a mistake she wants to take back but is scared of what "others" will think and that she still needs to decide what's best for her & D10. all of course 7+ months after BD. W is still seeing OW, so yes similar to fighting "sorrys" but actions are still of betrayal. w has recently asked numerous times what I want and asked If I hate her. W is very interested in my life and what I'm doing.
The majority of cases I've read had a WW who wanted to keep one foot in her old life with her partner, and one foot in her new life with her new partner/lover. She is very concerned about you finding someone to replace her position in your life, so she keeps a check on what/when/who you are doing. Sounds crazy, huh? It gets crazier. She wants you to continue loving her......and actually be happy for her in her new relationship/affair. Her thinking is like, "Can we all just be good friends"? She probably won't tell you those blunt words, but she will say other things to gauge your emotional attachment to her. It sounds as if it is important to her what people think. Then again, I've heard many WW's say the same thing as an excuse.
I suggest you conduct yourself in a very calm and poised manner. Do not allow your emotions to surface. If she says something similar again, just look expressionless and say, "It sounds as if you still have a lot to think about". If she says she loves you, don't respond. If she says she is sorry, then say, "I'm afraid it is more complicated than that". (saying sorry doesn't fix it). If she asks what you want, tell her you would have to think about it quite a while.......and see what happens. In other words, see if the affair stops and she ends all contact with OW.
If she repeats she is sorry, you might ask her to be more detailed and explain what she is sorry about. If she says, "everything".......then reply with, "It's not that simple anymore". And btw, don't offer her affection when she is doing all this emotional "poor me" stuff. The WW is centered on one thing........herself!
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When do we actaully know? I understand the remorse and the apologies have to come with actions. is that it? No actions, no M? No way to "encourage" the actions? I'm completely at a loss as to what to do in my stich now.
Her words are not valid unless they parallel with her actions. I would seriously doubt genuine remorse if she continued having an A. Do you want a M to a person who does not honor her vows of fidelity? Do you want an open M? If you have been the faithful spouse, are you willing to compromise your integrity to have a cheater? Without her ending her contact with the OW.......that's exactly what you will have.
I know it must be horrible for you going through this pain. I wish I could tell you how you could prompt her to reverse her direction and be willing to push up her sleeves to work on the M with you. Honestly, as long as she thinks you are on the back burner waiting.....she won't be in any hurry. IMHO, the best way you can hurry her to make the right action is for you to follow the LRT technique. You don't have to give up hope, but I think you will have to emotionally let go of her in order for her to do what needs to be done. She sees you as "safe". Maybe that should change. Remorse can come when that person sees what she's lost. As long as she sees you waiting, she doesn't see she's lost you.
I am not telling you to jump into another relationship, or that your W will never be ready to repair a R with you. Just serious GAL and stop being available to your WW. She has to go through a process all by herself. Remember that four letter word everyone here hates........"time".
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Thank you so much for answering some of these questions for us. I know it is helpful for me to read your response. It really helps me understand things better and I appreciate you taking the time to answer!! You are awesome!
W:42 M:48 T:9 yrs M:1yr BD: Feb 2016 EA Confirmed: Feb 2016/PA July 2016 D: Feb 2017
Sandi - I've been working on true detachment and continue to struggle with her ambivalence. She's enjoying the material benefits of married life but not working on the marriage. Is this a futile path or should I work at it longer? It could be looked at as a negative that we are not separated so it doesn't hurt enough for her. Should I initiate that to establish my boundary that not working on things is not ok? Thank you.
- m and ww in 30s - s4 - m 11 yrs, t12 -ilybinilwy ~5/16 + request for OM - bd 7/16, confirm ea and strongly suspected pa - 9/16 ww claimed to have broken contact with om
Sandi - I've been working on true detachment and continue to struggle with her ambivalence. She's enjoying the material benefits of married life but not working on the marriage. Is this a futile path or should I work at it longer? It could be looked at as a negative that we are not separated so it doesn't hurt enough for her. Should I initiate that to establish my boundary that not working on things is not ok? Thank you.
What are the material things she's enjoying?
34, xw33 M-10, T-18 2D (8 and 5) Ilybinilwy-1/16 EA/PA- 7/15-present (with my former best friend) Trial apartment-2/16 (also when she considers us separated) W moved out-8/16 W Filed 11/21/16 D final 1/30/17
