Still hanging on ... just

[MoveFrwd]

There was no hugs/cuddles this weekend again, normally I would ask for one or move over when there hasn't been anything for a week or two, but i didnt do that, and now she isnt coming to me. I don't know if this detaching is working, as it does seem to be pushing her away more.

So how do you feel you are 'pushing her away'?

I slept in Home theatre, but got up around 4am to toilet.

I decided to go and sleep in the MBR now I knew she was awake,

but I couldn't settle for a few minutes and decided to leave again

Do you see how this appears weak? You did something, then changed your mind (and pursued her) and then when you didnt get what you wanted, you slunk back off?

Im all for staying in the MBR, but this wishy washy back and forth is not helping you any.

she said "Do you want your food now?" in a angry way, I said "Yes!", then I asked her which one is it ? She said, "It obvious isnt it!". I said, "well you might be eating too!", she went on to say "Well you have more food so its obvious which one is yours". I said "You know, the amount of energy you expended there to explain why I should have known which food was mine, you could have saved all that and pointed and said that one!."

Whats the point of your final thing? Just say "thanks for making my food" and be done with it? As Sandi says, would you rather be right or be married?

As a definite Nice Guy and pursuer, to detach is against my normal nature and it makes no sense (in my normal mindset) that this would cause her to move closer to me. Certainly it looks like its having the opposite effect at the moment.

Distancing and detaching are two incredibly different things. You seem to be matching her moods right now. If she's happy, you feel good. If she's angry, then you are grumpy and argue with her. YOU need to be in control of your mood. THATS detaching. All you are doing is putting distance between you and her. Thats not bad, per se. But if you arent also taking control of your own emotions, then the distance isnt really going to mean much one way or the other. I see lots of negative interactions...how can you make them more positive?

But I don't want to be doing this another year down the road.

So, youre just 'trying' this to see if there is an immediate change? How about worry about next year next year. Worry about today. And maybe tomorrow.

[Oluwa]

So how do you feel you are 'pushing her away'?

Thanks darknes. I guess I am feeling that not moving towards her and trying to engage, it seems that we are farther apart. She seems quiet happy for me not to be around, whereas if I watch TV with her, sometimes we talk and she moves closer. But I guess she isn't really feeling it.

Do you see how this appears weak? You did something, then changed your mind (and pursued her) and then when you didnt get what you wanted, you slunk back off? Im all for staying in the MBR, but this wishy washy back and forth is not helping you any.

Yes I understand what your saying here, but this wasn't really me pursuing her, I just felt like sleeping in there, but then felt restless and decided to get up. But yes, most of the time I do show alot of weakness to her.

she said "Do you want your food now?" in a angry way, I said "Yes!", then I asked her which one is it ? She said, "It obvious isnt it!". I said, "well you might be eating too!", she went on to say "Well you have more food so its obvious which one is yours". I said "You know, the amount of energy you expended there to explain why I should have known which food was mine, you could have saved all that and pointed and said that one!."

Whats the point of your final thing? Just say "thanks for making my food" and be done with it? As Sandi says, would you rather be right or be married?

I guess I am confusing some things here. I feel that in order to be a stronger man, I need to stick up for myself, I need to tell her when I don't like the way she talks to me. Yes I want to be married to her still, but it can't continue for both our sakes, if no behaviours change, i.e. if I stay a doormat/Mr Nice Guy.

Distancing and detaching are two incredibly different things. You seem to be matching her moods right now. If she's happy, you feel good. If she's angry, then you are grumpy and argue with her. YOU need to be in control of your mood. THATS detaching. All you are doing is putting distance between you and her. Thats not bad, per se. But if you arent also taking control of your own emotions, then the distance isnt really going to mean much one way or the other. I see lots of negative interactions...how can you make them more positive?

Thanks this comment helps alot. Definitely still matching her mood as you accurately point out. And story of my repair attempts over the year and a half, where I do things for a while and expect results. See point above about negative and positive interactions. I have ignored so much of her negative interactions over the years, and now feel I should stand up for myself, I guess an attempt to set boundaries. So I can be more positive and have been, but do I continue to be positive despite her harsh words.

But I don't want to be doing this another year down the road.

So, youre just 'trying' this to see if there is an immediate change? How about worry about next year next year. Worry about today. And maybe tomorrow.

Yeah point taken, but this isn't new, I've been working through this for along time, she still doesn't seem any closer, and sometimes I just think that it is inevitable that she will eventually leave. I feel I would be much better off emotionally if I at least had a say in that seperation, in that I agreed to it or even instigated it. I feel stuck, because to go forward I need to more assertive and I am not sure there is a way forward without me suggesting seperation.

[MoveFrwd]

I guess I am feeling that not moving towards her and trying to engage, it seems that we are farther apart.

Imagine you two are on a walk where shes a few steps ahead of you. What happens if you keep walking? She is just going to match your speed walking away. But what if you stop walking? For a while, it WILL look like shes walking away still. in fact, the gap between you will continue to grow. But, that is the only way theres a chance she will turn around. So, at some point in the future, SHE might start walking back towards YOU.

this wasn't really me pursuing her, I just felt like sleeping in there, but then felt restless and decided to get up.

Im not going to argue with your intentions. But if I were her, I would feel pressured and pursued.

I feel that in order to be a stronger man, I need to stick up for myself, I need to tell her when I don't like the way she talks to me. Yes I want to be married to her still, but it can't continue for both our sakes, if no behaviours change, i.e. if I stay a doormat/Mr Nice Guy.

Yes, you DO need to stick up for yourself. Have you read the thread on boundaries? What you said is trying to control HER. "you know if YOU did XXXYYYZZ..." Instead, the correct way to do this is to put the boundary around YOURSELF. "When you talk to me like this in the future, I will AAABBBCCC." For example, I will leave the room for a few minutes or I will go do something else. Something that shows a response that you will do based on her actions.

I feel I would be much better off emotionally if I at least had a say in that seperation, in that I agreed to it or even instigated it.

Do you want to separate? Does that bring you closer to your goals?
Im not sure I follow in your logic of "having a say". If she wants to separate, what are you going to do to prevent it....chain her up in the basement?

[Oluwa]

Good News! My DR book has arrived with friend, will pick up tommorow! Meanwhile any comments on this sitch ? Thanks so much.

I have just done the Tax Return and we are going to get a reasonable amount. She has been talking before about wanting to go back home to Nigeria and Europe. This is going to cost us a fortune, money we don't really have. But the tax return is going to help alot, I havent submitted it yet as she will see it when it comes into the bank account.

I fear that this will cause her to believe that we can now go on that trip and she may string me along further so she can fund her holiday back to Nigeria. I hope she wouldn't be that devious, but you can't be sure with her behaviour anymore can you.

I would rather use the money to help us seperate if that is what she eventually wants. I thought of keeping it, and I could use it to rent a place for 6 months on a trial separation so she can really see how life is without me. This would help in my detachment.

But I do need to tell her about it soon, my friend says I should keep it a secret or she will definitely want to spend it. She has a track record of over-spending and I have enabled it over the years. But I am not happy about, stupid NGS.

Any advice ?

[MoveFrwd]

Good News! My DR book has arrived with friend, will pick up tommorow! Meanwhile any comments on this sitch ? Thanks so much.

I have just done the Tax Return and we are going to get a reasonable amount. She has been talking before about wanting to go back home to Nigeria and Europe. This is going to cost us a fortune, money we don't really have. But the tax return is going to help alot, I havent submitted it yet as she will see it when it comes into the bank account.

I fear that this will cause her to believe that we can now go on that trip and she may string me along further so she can fund her holiday back to Nigeria. I hope she wouldn't be that devious, but you can't be sure with her behaviour anymore can you.

I would rather use the money to help us seperate if that is what she eventually wants. I thought of keeping it, and I could use it to rent a place for 6 months on a trial separation so she can really see how life is without me. This would help in my detachment.

But I do need to tell her about it soon, my friend says I should keep it a secret or she will definitely want to spend it. She has a track record of over-spending and I have enabled it over the years. But I am not happy about, stupid NGS.

Any advice ?

Sounds like the problem isnt you telling her about the money....it's you not working together to create budgets.

I dont see how you can keep it a secret. It isnt 'yours' alone.

[Oluwa]

Thanks darknes. Yes not making budgets etc is definitely one of our problems. Money has been an issue with us for many many years. She would always say things like you are stingy and never spend money. She would always get angry about it, and I would cave in and let her spend.

Years ago now, we argued about money and I said, I'm tired of this arguing, you manage the money in total then and then we'll see how we go.

Spending has never been in control since then. Yes it's my fault to enable this behaviour in the first place, but it is a dynamic in our relationship that needs to change, but where we are now in the marriage, it is going to be a difficult discussion to have, but one that may bring me some respect if I explain the implications and start to get us on a budget.

About a year and a half ago, I did suggest that we start tracking spending etc and she said "you can stick your budget up your ass!". The times I might mention why she suddenly spent alot of money on clothes or expensice soccer kits for the youngest son, she would say "Thats why I work myself, so I can spend money without your querying me!". But our finances aren't separate, she doesn't have money allocated to spend as she wants to, which is something I suggested at that time again. She just doesn't want to discuss any of it.

So as the marriage has deteriorated and she has said ILBINILWY etc, I have backed down more and more. So now I am in this NGS, too afraid to rock the boat about money, when clearly its one of the things we both manage very badly.

[Oluwa]

Hi,

I few observations from my week so far.

On the weekend a friend contacted me to ask if I wanted to go and watch Australia vs South Africa Test Match on Thursday.
I have never been to cricket and don't really have much interest, but thought well I have never been so worth a go. I told my wife that I was going to go to cricket and she said ok. I was quite surprised as I would be taking the day off, and I am a contracter so if I have a day off I get no pay. She has commented before, that why don't you retire!, when I have taken time off. Whereas she has long service leave and has been taking alot of days off over this year.

Anyway, I went yesterday and it was ok not that interesting. I was in pain with my shoulder for most of the time and the combination of beer and hot sun, seemed to lower my mood quite a bit. My wife text me about kid things a couple of times and I found it odd that she never asked how my day out was going. I thought too myself that this is clearly the change, that now she has no interest in what I am doing at all, our lives were truly separating. This made me even more depressed. I was angry at myself also that I couldn't just enjoy the day out without my wife clouding my thoughts all bloody day, and we haven't even separated yet.

When I got home, she said "Oh! I thought you were going out!" I said I did that was today daytime. She's like, "So you took another day off work? Why don't you just retire from working!". I said, "So I cant take any leave ever?", and she said "If you look at home many days you have taken off this year!", "I said quite a few of these days were due to being sick. I wanted to say, well I have lost all motivation to work or anything, since your have been destroying our marriage, but that would not have achieved anything, well probably steps back.

The IMPORTANT thing in above is that I ruined my own day, primarily worrying about my wife and why she didn't ask how my day was going! When I get home, I realise it was all wasted, because she didn't even remember I was out in the daytime. It is after these realisations that I come back to understanding thatmy happiness is my responsibility, and I CAN CHOOSE to be happy in the moment, or be SAD and NEGATIVE, these are choices you make. And clearly, I have some ritual habits of ruminating and dwelling on the negative rather enjoying the positive.

Anyway, we had a few pleasant chats for early evening. She told me about an audition she went for, she does some part-time modelling once in a while. She seemed in a more friendly (at least talkative) mood today. Yes, I know, stop monitoring her mood!

While I was on the laptop, preparing from work I had to do a bit later in the evening, she asked me to do something in the kitch, I said oh I am actually working, and she said "Thats ok if your working Ill do it!". I said, "know thats ok I can do it quickly, I was just telling you why I was on the laptop, when you are working in the kitchen".

While she is eating, I am on my laptop working and she says "Did we finish watching Better Call Caul (TV Series)?", I said "No I dont think so and mentioned where we got to in the series". So my interpretation of this, is that she is indirectly asking if I want to watch TV with her. I haven't been in the room to do that for nearly 2 weeks, and she obviously is noticing a little bit. Normally, I would have jumped at the chance and said "Do you want to watch it tonight ?", but I decided to let her lead on that, I will let her invite me. It was hard, because as I said, I normally jump at any chance to be with her and she may well have noticed that. Who knows, my mind just loves to fabricate entire scenarios and meanings based on tiny things she says or does, so I could be way off with that interaction as well. Funny thing is, its potentially a positive interaction where she wants to watch TV with me, so I am happy to harbour those thoughts, as they make me feel like there is progress. Does this make sense, in that I can see my thought process is pretty flawed at over-analysing every thought.

Anyway, on the train on the way to work and friend has dropped my DR book in my desk drawer, so should start reading that this weekend.

[Oluwa]

So finally got the DR book today and read 1st section and half of Step 1 while at S12 soccer training. Started a plan to read the sections and do the work in my goal planning worksheet. Highlighted quite a few sections with highlighter, so was feeling quite positive and hopeful, especially as I have been more detached lately.

When we got home, had dinner and W came out to talk to S12. Half way through the conversation she said "I'm going out tommorow night?". I said "oh where ?", she said "Clubbing?". I started to panic, as this was very short notice and the way she said it while we were at dinner with S12 seemed strange.

After a while after she had gone in her room, I mulle it all over and succumbed to going to talk about it with her. I know I should have just left it. I initially talked about D14 and then said, oh so what is happening tommorrow, are you going straight out after doing your hair. She said that she would be back before going.

I said do you mind if I ask who you are going with. She said "Im going out with a friend". I said 'Oh what friend is that ?". She said "Why?", I said "Well its short notice and I just wondering who you are going with ?". She said, "Shes called Sophie?". I said, "Oh whos that, i've not heard of her before?". She said "No you don't know her?". I said "Is she from work? Is she single ?". She said "Why all the interrogation ?", I said "well if I just announced out of the blue that I am going out clubbing, wouldn't you ask who I was going with ? Especially as it was such short notice ?". She said, "oh I didn't know until she messaged me today". So I left it and left the room for a while.

Later on I came back in to talk about something else and then after we watched TV for a bit (yes I was back in the MBR sitting next to her), I said "Can I ask you more about tommorow night ?". She said "What do you want to know ?". I said "Well I don't know sophie? It seems strange such short notice and you are only going out with one person ?". I said "Do you mind asking about it ?'. She said "just leave me alone for Christ Sake". I left it again for a while but stayed in the room quietly stewing.

Eventually, when she was ready to sleep. I said "It seems you are moving further away from me?". She said "Why do you say that, because i'm going out for the evening ?". I said "No! I am happy for you to go out, honestly I am, if that is what you want to do. Its was just a shock on short notice and how you told me. Normally you would let me know, or check what we were doing before you arranged ot go out". "But if you want to go out, then have a good time". I said, "Anyway its not that you are going out, its that you seem to be further away, like you don't move over to cuddle me at all anymore, but you used to before. Now you havent done that for like a month". She didn't really say anything and so I left to sleep in home theatre.

God, so as usual, as soon as there is anything that I find threatening, I start to panic and I try to alleviate my anxiety by asking her what is going on. I hate that I lose that control still, even though I know rationally I should just have left it.

But shes getting her hair done and then going out clubbing that same night. She didn't tell me about it earlier and I dont know the person. I never see her messages or anything on her phone anymore, so its so easy to get paranoid. I would love to ask, can I see the messages from Sophie or something like that to be sure that is what she is doing. If the friend is single, how do I know she isn't trying to mess about with other guys at the club. Or Sophie doesn't even exist and its a guy shes meeting. Do I really have to just ride this out, not knowing what she is doing? If our marriage was ok, I would be able to ask for reassurance, although if it was OK, I probably wouldn't feel the need.

Things just feel worse all the time in this R. Even though I'm writing yesterday, oh maybe she wants to watch TV with me. I really hate this situation as I hate the now knowing, and I can see why people split up so easily, as it is definetely easier to say, "screw it! lets seperate then!". I just wonder whether I am going to be strong enough to ride the DR process, especially if she is going to start a pattern of going out on her own, and I am meant to fein no interest.

[BillyHo]

I am sorry you are going through this. I totally understand that you want to know what is going on but all you are doing by asking her a bunch of questions is showing her your insecurities and that's not attractive to them. As hard as it is you need to let her go about her business and focus on you. The worst thing you can do is pressure her and push her further away. Stop pursuing her and GAL. It's hard but you can do it.

[MoveFrwd]

I have been more detached lately.

Im pretty sure the rest of this post shows a complete lack of detachment...What do you think shows your detachment?

OK. Im just going to add comments in blue interspersed instead of quoting tons of stuff:

When we got home, had dinner and W came out to talk to S12. Half way through the conversation she said "I'm going out tommorow night?". I said "oh where ?", First, why did you ask her? Better would be to say OK. And then propose a different day or days that YOU want to go out and do something. she said "Clubbing?". I started to panic, as this was very short notice and the way she said it while we were at dinner with S12 seemed strange. You mention a bunch of time how this is such short notice. What difference does it make? Its still a day ahead of time. Sometimes, they wont tell you until they are walking out the door.

After a while after she had gone in her room, I mulle it all over and succumbed to going to talk about it with her. Again. Why? What were you hoping to gain? How did going to talk about it get you closer to your goals? I know I should have just left it. I initially talked about D14 and then said, oh so what is happening tommorrow, are you going straight out after doing your hair. She said that she would be back before going.

I said do you mind if I ask who you are going with. She said "Im going out with a friend". I said 'Oh what friend is that ?". She said "Why?", I said "Well its short notice and I just wondering who you are going with ?". She said, "Shes called Sophie?". I said, "Oh whos that, i've not heard of her before?". She said "No you don't know her?". I said "Is she from work? Is she single ?". She said "Why all the interrogation ?", I said "well if I just announced out of the blue that I am going out clubbing, wouldn't you ask who I was going with ? Especially as it was such short notice ?". She said, "oh I didn't know until she messaged me today". So I left it and left the room for a while. What are you expecting. You think if she were going out with a guy or were going to meet a guy she would just TELL you? If you know the answer is a lie or you know you arent going to believe the answer, then asking the question is a complete waste of time and effort. All you do is appear paranoid and weak.

Later on I came back in to talk about something else and then after we watched TV for a bit (yes I was back in the MBR sitting next to her), I said "Can I ask you more about tommorow night ?". She said "What do you want to know ?". I said "Well I don't know sophie? It seems strange such short notice and you are only going out with one person ?". I said "Do you mind asking about it ?'. She said "just leave me alone for Christ Sake". I left it again for a while but stayed in the room quietly stewing. So what part of any of this shows detachment? Shows your strength?

Eventually, when she was ready to sleep. I said "It seems you are moving further away from me?" Sigh. NO R TALKS!! Not a single word of this is a good look for you.. She said "Why do you say that, because i'm going out for the evening ?". I said "No! I am happy for you to go out, honestly I am, if that is what you want to do. Its was just a shock on short notice and how you told me. Normally you would let me know, or check what we were doing before you arranged ot go out". "But if you want to go out, then have a good time". I said, "Anyway its not that you are going out, its that you seem to be further away, like you don't move over to cuddle me at all anymore, but you used to before. Now you havent done that for like a month". She didn't really say anything and so I left to sleep in home theatre. Granted, why are you asking her to cuddle with you and you arent even sleeping in the same room? You just come off as desperate for her affection.

You nailed it here:

God, so as usual, as soon as there is anything that I find threatening, I start to panic and I try to alleviate my anxiety by asking her what is going on. I hate that I lose that control still, even though I know rationally I should just have left it.

Why do you think SHE is going to alleviate your anxiety?

But shes getting her hair done and then going out clubbing that same night. She didn't tell me about it earlier and I dont know the person. I never see her messages or anything on her phone anymore, so its so easy to get paranoid. I would love to ask, can I see the messages from Sophie or something like that to be sure that is what she is doing. If the friend is single, how do I know she isn't trying to mess about with other guys at the club. Or Sophie doesn't even exist and its a guy shes meeting. Do I really have to just ride this out, not knowing what she is doing? If our marriage was ok, I would be able to ask for reassurance, although if it was OK, I probably wouldn't feel the need.

Lets play this out:

- She told the 100% truth. Shes going out for a girls night with Sophie.
- She told half truth. Shes going out with Sophie but the intention is to meet guys.
- She lied and is doing something else.

What is different for you in these scenarios?

Things just feel worse all the time in this R. Even though I'm writing yesterday, oh maybe she wants to watch TV with me. I really hate this situation as I hate the now knowing, and I can see why people split up so easily, as it is definetely easier to say, "screw it! lets seperate then!". I just wonder whether I am going to be strong enough to ride the DR process, especially if she is going to start a pattern of going out on her own, and I am meant to fein no interest.

1) What exactly do you want to know?
2) What is your alternative to the "DR process"?