OFP -> Unstuck -> On with life

[MrBond]

"Having GF around helps a little, when she is there, but things go just fine even without her.... verifying it's not a "need" after all."

Just because you are 'fine' when she's not there doesn't prove a thing. The fact that you're discussing M already is a big warning sign. I feel you're going to go ahead and do it anyway, but to get M'd after you've only been dating a few months and when you were supposed to be fighting for your M, is probaby too soon to get things in order.

[SH_]

OFP,

Your thoughts say a lot about what you already know to be the appropriate action.
I have shared with another that relationships so soon after one falls apart are more like a drug to lessen the pain of the loss.

If you really want to know if you are okay when she is not around, you may want to think about taking a break from it for a period of time. Say a month or more.
if you truely are okay without her around this will help you know for sure.

Aside from that you outline more red flags than anyone that has gone through what you have and learned what you have should even still be considering.
She sounds like she is jumping into relationships before she has done some major healing of her own.

IMO you have enough on your plate to focus on for yourself and your kids to be trying to figure this out.
Remember that what you decide to do does not just affect you and her........
Ponder on that my friend.......

Be well this evening.

[Zephyr]

Hey OFP, how are you doing this week. hope you have some plans to get out this weekend.

you had a lot to share last week. have you had a chance to go back and reread and give us any more thoughts?

I truly hope all is well!

[OFP]

Thanks everyone for checking in on me. I haven't posted much, partially because I have been busy, partially some guilt for not keeping up on other people's sitches... And partially because I still find it painful to even think about the crud that others are going through. Maybe me posting in my own thread will be helpful to someone?

Lots to add, not sure where to start... Maybe a couple posts will work out better?

First... xW... My atty created the amendment to the OFP, sent it to xW's atty, they signed it, returned it, my atty filed it... So everything is in place for us to go to coparenting counseling.

In the mean time, xW brought up a silly concern about the kids safety, through atty's. After a couple back and forths, I realized how stupid it is to be paying atty's for our communication. I had my mom text her instead. xW agreed to a request I had for the kids, really shocked me. And then in the same text reply accused me of dragging the D out, asking for more money, and now we have to go to court. Well, actually she is asking for more child support is why we are going to court in the first place, even though child support is a simple calc, she won't accept that amount. As long as we are in court, I plan to file a contempt motion against her for all the stuff she took from the house that she shouldn't have. Apparently that got her attention! I had my mom reply only with "wrote down you complaints, he will do the same, and you can talk about it in coparenting counseling." She replied with a simple "ok." Maybe she is finally realizing she isn't in total control.

In the same text she says that dragging it out is "taking a toll on the children." OK, I haven't told the kids anything, how is it taking a toll on them. In fact the stuff she took is hurting the children, it would be better for them if she just returned it.

Whatever! If the coparenting counseling ever happens, we can discuss it there. If not, we go to court. There's $10k worth of stuff I am trying to get back, so it is worth it to take her to court over it.

[OFP]

Next subject... I guess I'll talk about GF next. Things are still going really well. We have a bunch of differences, but we embrace our differences, we compliment each other with them, at least so far. We are both enjoying the communication being so open and honest about everything. There is no defensiveness, ever, what a huge relief to no longer have to walk on egg shells around the mentally unstable partner! The passion in our R is amazing, something we both have always desired and have never gotten from a previous R.

I proposed a couple weeks ago, she of course said yes. We are sharing the news with friends and family slowly. We plan to have a semi small ceremony, some time early next year. I haven't told the kids yet... I will wait until it is a little closer, though someone else may slip. I also would rather xW not know. I am an open book about pretty much everything with everyone, but her knowing this isn't likely going to help matters anyway. I think that means I am not guilty of using this R as "revenge?"

GF is staying at my house most of the time. Her D17 is here more than not, we get along quite well also. My kids still love being around GF, she loves being around them. I am sure I mentioned it before, that is a huge relief... If it didn't work out with my kids and GF, it wouldn't work out with me and GF, there would be no compromise there. GF is so good with my kids!!

Still... D [censored]!!! It will never be like it was, GF will never be the kids mother. xW will always be involved in their life, and I absolutely hate what this does to the kids. They will forever have to bounce between us. Holidays will forever be a PITA for them. I wanted so much more for my babies. There are no upsides to the kids in a D, I don't care what anyone says.... Especially when it's an ugly bitter D.

[OFP]

Lastly.... The kids and I. The kids are taking this way better than I ever expected. I still get to hear about some of the stupid things xW does, I feel bad for the kids, but realize I can't fix it, as long as they aren't in danger the courts will never side with me. [censored], but I'll continue to be the rock for them.

My son suddenly has some more attitude. I am guessing his personality is changing because of all this, and xW is letting the kids run free around town. But I admire it. I want him to feel like he can stand up for what he believes in, and he can practice on me. We talk and things are good between us.

Me personally... I still cry! At least once a day. Overly sensitive guy I guess. I miss my kids. I miss having a complete home and a complete family. I am in the house, but it feels so different when xW stripped it clean. I have a huge house, but we all sleep in the same room on 2 mattresses on the floor, every night that the kids are with me. I cuddle with them a lot. I interact with them what I feel is the right amount that they know I care without squashing their independence. But when they are gone... I hate it. I don't want to find fun things to do for myself, I want to be with them!

My feelings for xW are not gone, I have to admit. I assume they never will be. The person I loved is gone, dead, maybe never existed (she pretended to be something she was not?)? But what to do with the memories? There are many happy ones, so many! We had a lot of common interests, we did so many things together the 10 years we were together before having kids, and the 11 years of having kids. I loved my wife, I will never say otherwise. But I am moving on.

I cried after I proposed to GF.... Inside my head I quietly said "goodbye" to xW.... That was the end, no going back, ever. She has caused so much damage, so much pain, and for what? I may never know!

[OFP]

A couple weeks ago I met with the kids and xW's IC.

Last week xW told my mother that the IC told her that I said that I didn't see the point of the coparenting counseling. I talked to this IC again, told him this, he told me he said no such thing, and that is not what he got out of the conversation with me. Par for the course with xW!

xW told my mother that I was dragging this out. My mother told xW to make a list of her complaints, I would list mine, we could talk in counseling. xW said "OK." Then IC told me xW was waiting to have the first session until after the next court action. I explained to him that we could possibly work it out in counseling, saving the costs of bringing it to court. IC called me Friday to tell me we have our first session set up for this week Thursday.

So, how to approach this? The time sensitive subject is assets. Mediation was extremely biased in her favor. On top of that she took lots of stuff that she wasn't supposed to take and I have it documented with lots of pictures!

The coparenting thing is going to be an interesting subject too, her acting like she is the parent and is just "allowing" me to have time with the kids, like they are only her kids. She says she would never try to keep the kids from me, yet has. I think I am a great parent, yet every week or two she has some new allegation about something I did wrong, and suggests that the kids not be with me.

How much of the unfairness do I go into? I want to say so many things like:
- "How is THIS what is best for the kids?"
- "Why did you do these things?" (Allegations, the OFP, rumors, greediness, etc)
- "When are you going to return my stuff?" (There are a few things she has agreed she has to return, but they are tiny things compared to the large items. And it's been many months, she has been too busy playing. And she damaged the pictures she returned).
- "I have done the right thing over and over (offering her to stay in the house, letting her blow all the money out of the joint account, trusting her to divide a couple large things evenly, trusting her to actually follow the decree), she "punishes" over and over.
- "YOU created this situation, only YOU can make it right."

Nothing but a pile of random thoughts flying around at this point. I haven't seen my IC for a while, but last time I did, she suggested I keep all "blame" out of the conversation, if I do "blame" will just prove to xW that I am still the same, won't let things go. Wait, I won't let things go because she won't stop doing them! I get so tired of taking the high road. I get so tired of her taking advantage of the situation, I just want it to become "fair."

[J5K]

OFP,

I struggle with the same thing. I have learned that I need to choose my words carefully when speaking with STBX. Any time you use "you" to speak with xW, that is laying blame. Just repeat what she says in a validating way. If she says you do not do xyz with the kids respond with I understand, thank you for bringing that to my attention so I can improve xyz next time.

Not easy, you will be eating a lot of sh$t sandwiches even post D. That is just how the wayward person is.

[OFP]

JimKao, is that something that you are successful with? And what is the end result? She is validated that her opinions of you are correct since they are not met with counter-information? She can openly blame you and you cannot even defend yourself? And that helps what?

I did the appt with xW yesterday morning. It only added more frustration for me.

I was hoping to cover some issues about assets to avoid another court date. xW chose to proceed to court and not cover it there. xW proceeded to discuss coparenting issues.

xW ironically suggested we need better communication. The irony being, there is an OFP in place!

xW stated that communication through my mother is somewhat working, except that my mother would bring up other subjects, including assets, in their discussions. Again, ironic considering it is always xW that brings up those issues. I have all the text message between them to prove it.

Somewhat out of the blue, xW brought up the letters I had written her after filing the OFP, that what I said in the letters contradicts what I said and did after that. I commented that "since we aren't going there, I won't comment, other than to say that I don't agree." Some serious confusion here, I haven't talked to her to SAY anything to her, how can that contradict? The conversations in her head contradict what I actually wrote? That's not my problem. My actions contradict what I wrote? Well, I did say I wasn't going to rush into the D proceeding, but then her atty sends me an email stating "xW says to proceed with the D." HER atty said that, I can only assume acting on feedback from her.

Here's another disturbing part... xW stated that she had no idea where we are on the legal battle. This isn't the first time I've heard this, and it scares me... xW has no clue how much her atty is dragging things out. Even more scary, how many things have been done by xW's atty without her consent? How many "opinions" of the path have been decided by the atty? xW not taking an active role in the process is her own fault, but it is sure costing me a lot of money!

Another clear sign of her intent, the second time I sent a letter was via email. She forwarded it to her atty, and got a warning from her atty that it is a violation of the OFP. And later said to my mom that I "got away with too much", meaning violating the OFP by sending her the letters.

It doesn't make sense to me, any of it. There is plenty more from the session, but I feel it is pointless to share any other details. I said very little, I cried a lot, I let her affect my feelings way too much!

We are set up for another session next week. I don't know what to think, what to prepare. After all the hurtful things she has done, considering there is still an OFP in place, there is only one person in the world that can make things right, and it is her. I have taken the high road through this whole thing, I have given everything to her, for her, because of her. I am not going to give any more. In fact I did some math, I added up all the legal fees that I have paid, all the concessions I made in mediation, the money she siphoned out of our joint account, the things she took from the house that she was supposed to leave... $95k so far. When is it going to be enough?

[OFP]

I didn't add anything from my appt the previous day with my IC. That was a semi frustrating appt also. Some good came from it. Some was just reinforcing things I already knew/felt.

My R with xW... What a mess! So many similarities between xW and my mother. Both use the same tools in minor disagreements: start with defensiveness, when that doesn't work move to comparing/keeping score (well you did that to me also), add blaming and accusing (it was your fault I did this wrong), change the subject to something they thought they could win, and when nothing else is working for them to "win" simply move to sarcasm, threaten to walk out to "show" how fed up they are but never actually completely walk out and stop the argument, and when all else fails childishness and making faces will always settle the dispute once and for all. Then, come back to reality, start off with trying to discuss the situation calmly, and immediately return to all previous poor coping techniques.

My IC said something that was eye opening... IC thought possibly that xW noticed her actions were unhealthy ways of dealing with things, but she tried really hard to choke them down. (I am sure because many times I had requested xW not be so defensive, while remaining perfectly calm). IC said it must have been really hard for xW to always have that battle going on, knowing her natural tendencies of how to deal with a situation were unhealthy, trying so hard to not fall into the patterns that she witnessed her whole life, but when she got upset she would go into the "reactive self" and have no control over her actions.

Both xW and my mother did manage to push my buttons and get me upset from time to time, but even then I would mostly remain calm and collected. It drove them crazy that they couldn't get me upset, and they would accuse me of being cocky or arrogant.
I would ask both to stop being defensive. With xW it sometimes actually seemed to work, but I think it led her to just withdraw because she knew she couldn't handle it properly so she just kept it to herself. With my mother, it made things worse if I asked her to not be defensive, a child (me) should never tell their mother what to do.
I would ask both to stay on the subject at hand. Both would ignore it and continue changing subjects. My mother would explode and reply "you don't get to CONTROL me." She thought she had ALL power to control the conversation, no one else matters.

Even though my mother is much worse DURING the disagreements, I do have to give her credit for what happens after. Sometimes it is 20 minutes later, sometimes days later, but once she cooled down she would give indirect apologies. Rarely was it that she would admit to "being wrong," but she would bring up later that she would try to look at it from my perspective, and realize what it was like for me. This is a pretty huge relief when it did come. Unfortunately with my mother, as soon as she felt threatened again (real or imagined), she forgot all about the empathy and would return to keeping score and blaming. The only tool I have found to work with her is avoidance, either avoiding her totally, or avoiding the subjects where she think she is entitled to force her opinion down my throat.

Yesterday was a good example of both xW and my mother. As I mentioned above, xW told my mother last week that I told her IC that I didn't see the point of going to this counseling. I talked to the IC on the phone, and he told me he said no such thing. Yesterday during the session, she told the IC that my mother told her that my mother didn't see the point of going to this counseling. What? That is a total lie, changing the lie to be he said-she said about people who aren't present to defend themselves. I commented during the session only that I know that is not what my mother said. After the session I talked to my mother for quite a while about the session. I told her what xW had said. My mom was upset that xW lied about what my mother said. I said to my mother, "imagine being M'd to her for 21 years, and then going through a D with her." My mom continued to keep the focus on herself, brought it up many times during out conversation, about how hurtful it was to my mother that xW said this. Later last night I was talking to my mother again about a different subject, and she said she thought more about what it must have been like for me to have to deal with xW doing this to me. Finally she got it. I added to my mother, imagine how it felt to have all her lies in the OFP, especially the rape comment.

So, my question to whoever may be reading this... xW is still lying, twisting things, however you want to put it. How do you deal with that? Call her out on it? It is tempting to have my mother come to the next coparenting counseling session, possibly my IC also, have everyone in the room at the same time, and ask xW once again about who said what, so that they are all there to defend themselves. I know that she would feel that we are ganging up on her, but for good reason.

I know, many will chime in with "it doesn't matter" or "her circus, her monkeys" or "you aren't responsible for fixing her." But wouldn't this "intervention" force her out of her lying habit? To be confronted by it so directly and abruptly?


Back to my previous thoughts... I came from a semi-dysfunctional family. And then had almost exactly the same dysfunction in my M. I am tackling my issues, and put serious thought and research into the contributions of FOO. I have analyzed my thoughts and behaviors before, during, and after my M. I have put serious effort into reflecting the patterns in my M and what contributed to them. And I have come up with some conclusions that are borderline arrogant (which I'm not proud of arrogance!). That even though I lived through this dysfunction, even though I am ultra-paranoid about repeating these patterns, I keep being surprised that what I find in myself is that I contributed very little to that dysfunction. I have had some behaviors in the past, like telling my siblings what to do for parenting, that I realized years ago were not helpful, and stopped giving advice to pretty much everyone. Years ago, not just based on what I have learned lately. I have learned that I likely do not have the tools to deal with the mentally unstable, nor do I have an interest in learning those techniques, at least not at this point.

I have had these problems with 2 people in my life, my mother and xW. My initial thought was that I only have these problems with those that are closest to me, I'm still the common denominator. Learning about these things, and then seeing again how unhealthy both of these people were, released me from part of my guilt.

My brother and I get into heated discussions sometimes.... to the point of semi serious frustration. We walk away for 5 minutes, come back, let each other know our perspective of what happened, and all is forgiven, literally within 5 minutes. And maybe feel even better about ourselves and each other than before the argument.

My sister, she shuts down when feeling confronted. It is obvious that she does this, so it is simple to know when to stop the discussion and let her have time to think. Come back to the conversation, ask her kindly for her perspective to help her out of her shell, validate, all is good again. I may have screwed this up at times in the past with my sister (years ago), but I feel good that I can be that person for her that maybe helps her open up. My sister suffers from serious codependence, so we talk a lot lately about our childhood memories. My sister has told me about some things my mother has done to her that were pretty horrible. My sister tries too hard to be forgiving, so I try to make her feel safe sharing those things with me. She does not want it to get back to our mother.

GF... I'm sure I'll get some negative feedback on this one (i.e. well of course your R is good, you are still in the honeymoon period), but I'll share it anyway. This was never the intent of the R with GF, but she has taught me a lot about who "I" am. I treat GF the same way I treated xW. She actually appreciates the way I treat her, imagine that! I do things with my kids the same as I always have, though I do have more time with them now then when I was M'd to their mother (that's sad isn't it!). GF comments every time I am with my kids what an amazing father I am. I've caught myself just finishing a sentence, I cringe... Déjà vu, I just put my foot in my mouth, and this conversation is about to go really bad. But with GF, it doesn't go bad. In fact she looks at what I said as being a positive. She THANKS me for my comments. She tells me she appreciates my input. I am hypersensitive to coming across as controlling, so I try to identify my typical behavior and responses for might be construed as controlling, and ask GF if it felt that way to her. Her response is always "absolutely not." It is so strange, yet so comfortable, and such a relief, being with someone like her.

But, why is it that xW still feels like a "loss?" With everything I have learned, you would think I would be rejoicing that it is over, that I have moved one, that I have found someone who compliments my personality instead of clashes with it, that I no longer have to walk on egg shells scared to death of what my partner's reaction is going to be. Why is there still this crushing feeling in my chest that never goes away? Is it because of what this change in life does to my children? Because of the time I wasted in this dysfunctional relationship instead of being with someone better all along? Is it the stuff and money that I have lost? Does it have anything to do with xW at all (beside the fact that she is the one that dished out the boatloads of hurt)? Maybe I should be thanking her for releasing me?